The Curse of Ham & The Southern Baptist Convention
NYTN | 10 Nov. 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld2bLAtdWpU
2:51 "son' is also used of grandson, and Canaan may at this point have been the youngest descendant of Noah.
Now, why is it marked that the one who sees him naked is "Ham, the father of Canaan" and why is Canaan rather than Ham cursed?
A wild guess is maybe not so wild if there is a passage in Habacuc (misused by Mr. Hovind to argue teetotalism as a Christian duty) that says:
Woe to him that giveth drink to his friend, and presenteth his gall, and maketh him drunk, that he may behold his nakedness
[Habacuc (Habakkuk) 2:15]
Ham came in and saw Noah's nakedness by surprise, but Canaan had already gone away and tipped him, after, being the first tester, having deceived his grandfather about what quantities are safe and what aren't. He was thereon condemned to be a sommelier while others drank wine. And preferrably an honest one.
3:48 So far, so good. The whole human race comes from these brothers.
- Harvey Wabbit
- @harveywabbit9541
- and they were the ancient year divided into three seasons of four months each.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @hglundahl
- @harveywabbit9541 Look, if you divide the year into three, four or five seasons depends on the climate, not on the calendar.
Very localised calendars may take only the local seasons into account, but that doesn't mean the seasons depend on the calendar rather than the climate.
Now, I don't know exactly why you adress me on side issues, hope it's not calculated to drag me into some kind of freemasonry ...
5:45 There were different moments in different confessions, in America.
As a Catholic, I don't really have a stake in this, but the idea that slavery is pronounced on black people, while extant among Latino Catholic theologicans (Brazil, I think), is pretty absent from Catholic clergy, even when they are for continuing the slavery that's already there (like when Pope Gregory XVI had pronounced a ban on slave trade).
Among Baptists, there is a three way split. A majority South, leading to Southern Baptist, take Genesis 9 literally and as pronouncing slavery on the black. In the North, a majority reject this and reject a literal reading, but a minority also reject the pro-slavery implication (at least for blacks having met Christians, since Philemon supersedes Genesis 9, basically), while still being literal about what Genesis 9 says. Noah actually did get drunk.
6:22 Ethiopia = all of black Africa.
As you note, Cush is not Canaan.
As far as I'm concerned, the wider and prophetic sense of the curse was already fulfilled in OT times. Joshua who came from Shem conquered "the land of Canaan" (except the parts that are now Lebanon) and Scipio who came from Japheth conquered the Canaanite or Phoenician colony Carthage.
"The Third Punic War (149–146 BC) was the third and last of the Punic Wars fought between Carthage and Rome."
So, OT times.
10:18 Dabney was not Southern Baptist, he was Southern Presbyterian.
11:31 God is selectively doing the opposite.
He's uniting nations in the Church, starting with Jews within those nations, sometimes also metuentes, but He's not promising world wide political or social unity outside the Church.
At least not on Pentecost.
There is an argument both that slavery will exist on Doomsday and that all nations will be united on Doomsday, but that's a different beast ... literally.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation
[Apocalypse (Revelation) 13:7]
Political reunion of the nations ...
And he shall make all, both little and great, rich and poor, freemen and bondmen, to have a character in their right hand, or on their foreheads
[Apocalypse (Revelation) 13:16]
Bondmen, a k a slaves, exist. This is within 3 and 1/2 years from Doomsday.
Perhaps not the argument that the fourth SB leader was looking for ... and it doesn't need slavery in Christian nations to be fulfilled, since the AC will obviously be ruling over non-Christian nations as well, and in some of them, slavery is thriving.
12:43 I'm not sure Anglos were for 400 years referring to Ham for black slaves.
I think it's a meme from Jews and Muslims, which first entered Christian circles by a Lutheran professor in Kiel, in the 1600's, and later became popular in the Netherlands (with some contamination to Catholic Belgians, who should have known better, I'm not a fan of Leopold II). And even later than that, English speakers in the Americas.
The main argument for keeping a black man as a slave after his shipping from Africa is, you bought him, and you presume the African king had a right to sell him for some crime he had committed, or if he had asked for it in the hope of allieving poverty. The main argument for keeping a black child on your plantation as a slave is, he was born into the slavery of his parents. But the normal upshot of this, and it happened in French Louisiana, and quite a lot in Brasil too, sooner or later you start liberating slaves by generosity or as asking for their prayers to get you out of Purgatory, and a slave once liberated is (at least up to the Enlightenment) treated as an equal of the majority white free population. With no segregation.
Even the Latino theologian (Brazilian, I think) who brought in curse of Ham didn't argue the curse was per se a justification of keeping anyone as a slave, but brought on the misfortune of bad education, leading to the crimes (including mutual wars of enslavement!) that then in their turn justified slavery.
13:27 As far as they are speaking of people living in different countries, they are at least partly right.
God probably doesn't want all the differences to remain, since some of the cultural uniqueness of some peoples are actual sins, like slavehunt (if that's still a thing) or like considering for instance Christians or people who use alcohol in any (even just moderate) quantity as fit for slavery. While other peoples have a uniqueness in overusing alcohol every weekend, when they drink.
13:36 Ban on interracial dating?
Ouch! I mean black and white Americans are Americans (in the sense of Estadunidenses), right? There's probably more difference between a Georgian and a Canadian, than between Georgians of different pre-Columbian main origin populations!
13:44 Tower of Babel is not bad theology, but let's not ignore that some nations now existing are composites compared to the earliest ones after Babel.
The Roman Empire mixed Germanic and Canaanean, and the US has been involved in some melting pot too ...
- Harvey Wabbit
- Babel is two words of bab (gate) and el (god).
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @harveywabbit9541 To Nimrod. To Peleg and Noah, it's more like a verb form or verbal nouns of balal.
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