Erica Orchard Considered Catholicism as Having Heresies

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Erica Orchard Considered Catholicism as Having Heresies · Great Bishop of Geneva!: Answering the Allegations of Erica Orchard on Twenty Catholic Heresies

Her list of 20 heresies will be answered, not to her, since she die not like to answer me, but on my Catholic blog.

Q

https://qr.ae/pv28dE expands to:
What were the heretical beliefs of Catholicism?
https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-heretical-beliefs-of-Catholicism/answer/Erica-Orchard-2

Erica Orchard

I've been a Christian all my life.

Updated Jun 8, 2021

Heresies in the Roman Catholic Church.

1. Justification by faith PLUS WORKS
2. The selling of indulgences to get time off purgatory
3. Purgatory
4. The veneration of Mary
5. The immaculate conception of Mary
6. The assumption of Mary
7. Praying to Mary
8. The veneration of the saints
9. Praying to the saints
10. The Pope is the head of the church
11. The Pope is infallible
12. The Pontifical Magisterium has as much authority as the Word of God
13. Only the RC church has the authority to interpret the Bible
14. Tradition has as much authority as the Word of God
15. That there is no imputed righteousness of Christ to us at the moment of salvation
16. That the Catholic Church is the only true church worldwide
17. The bread embodies Jesus and can therefore be prayed to
18. Doing penance to gain forgiveness
19. Celibacy of the priesthood
20. Holy water

John Leach

10mo

So you know more than Jesus who set up this Church and gave it His authority?

Erica Orchard

10mo

I don't know more than Jesus, but I do know what he taught. He gave the church the authority to forgive sins in his name. He never gave his authority to change the message of salvation, or have other gods, or pray to the dead. The Church was given the opportunity to get back on line at the Reformation (and several times before that too) but refused and stayed apostate. The True Church teaches Jesus's message given in the Bible. The Roman Catholic church decided to keep its heresies and is no longer the True Church.

Answered twice

first by John Leach, then by me.

I

John Leach

10mo

Erica there is not a single doctrinal contradiction taught by the Catholic Church since Christ instituted it. Look at the man made churches of the reformation and you will not find a single doctrine taught by one that is not contradicted by another yet they all claim the same source of truth - personal subjective interpretation of mainly the NT a collection of writings selected and deemed sacred and inspired by God by the Catholic Church as compliant to its teachings. May I suggest you have been led astray by just another false teacher as what the Catholic Church teaches comes directly from that deposit of Faith once delivered to the saints. Those that rely on personal opinion though in good will presuming to know Gods revelation by personal derived opinion cannot have investigated what was taught by the Apostles in that era just relying on “insights” and end up with conflicting heresy. The One Holy Catholic Church was instituted by Christ so why put your opinion against God?

Erica Orchard

10mo

I’m not the one being led astray here, John. It wasn’t because they were right doctrinally that the church that became the Roman Catholic church suppressed translations of the Bible into the vernacular: they didn’t want anyone to understand what the Bible said, so that they could tell them what to believe.

Luther’s interpretation or Scripture wasn’t personal and subjective. Lutherans emphasise the objective truth of Scripture. It’s the RC church that decided that their own man-made traditions and the Pope had more authority than God’s Word.

John Leach

10mo

The first printed Bible in the vernacular was a Catholic one by the way. Prior to a printing press copies were made in Latin by hand to preserve its purity. Few people had access to a hand copied Bible so relied on the Church to provide Christ’s teachings. It is impossible to conclude doctrinally objective truth using Scripture alone and that is simply proven by observing the thousands of conflicting religions spawned by this method having rejected The Word of God embedded in Apostolic teachings. If you do a word search through the NT you will find more than 50 instances where The Word of God, The Word, The Gospel etc was taken by the Apostles across the known world through the Church. A NT constructed by the Catholic Church was not completed until early fifth Century and a criteria of selection included compliance to Church teaching. People who consider Scripture Alone as Gods plan for the unity Christ prayed for must see God as incompetent as individuals working it out for themselves has proven disastrous causing division upon division making Gods truth impossible to find.

Erica Orchard

10mo

The Bible was translated into Latin because that was the language spoken in most of the Roman Empire. Bible's were hand copied because that's how everything was copied, not to preserve its purity. Whatever that has got to do with this.

And how could the common people rely on the churches teachings when that church was reading sermons, reading scripture, and saying services in a language none of them spoke? How could they be taught Christian morality by a church whose priests had become so immoral at every level?

Scripture alone doesn't mean each individual decides for himself. We have pastors and teachers to explain it to us, as the Bible tells us to. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means.

John, we are not going to agree about this. I will never be persuaded that the sin Jesus condemned the Pharisees for - adding their own traditions to the scriptures, and then making them out to be more important - he would commend the church for. I will never be persuaded that Jesus is happy that his human mother, who is dead, is being treated as equal to him.

I'm pretty certain that you won't be convinced unless God repents you.

So we should leave this conversation here.

John Leach

10mo

Erica the NT is a constructed tradition of the Catholic Church that took centuries to compile and set. Doctrines such as the Trinity could be classed as man made. There is no, none, zip support for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in Scripture. The fact that priests etc are sinful men like the Apostles is irrelevant as are pastors and those that preached to you. It is a fact that all Christian Religions are in one way or another offshoots of Catholicism the original Church instituted by Christ. If it is corrupt as you claim how can you trust the NT it constructed with the main criteria compliance to its teachings? There remains not a single contradiction in Catholicism from 33AD until now yet outside this Church we find every wind of doctrines even with the very means of salvation. There is but one Faith, one Baptism as there is but one Lord and He has only one bride- His Church.

II

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

If you don’t mind me taking this up again, as I am not John Leach, I’ll answer each item.

“He gave the church the authority to forgive sins in his name.”

Which the Church (the one that is true and has His authority) does by Baptism, Confession, Last Anointing and also (if a sin without deliberate avoidance of above is still there, even a mortal one) by the Eucharist, or rather in that case it is Christ Himself who forgives.

“He never gave his authority to change the message of salvation,”

Prove there was a change?

“or have other gods,”

Prove we have other gods?

“or pray to the dead.”

It doesn’t seem this kind of community with the dead was specifically mentioned with a prohibition in the relevant chapter prohibiting necromancy.

“The Church was given the opportunity to get back on line at the Reformation (and several times before that too) but refused and stayed apostate.”

Is this in line with Christ’s promises in Matthew 28? I mean “the Church” and not just staying apostate, but even becoming so in the first place, except perhaps shorter than for 24 hours (if the Church were reduced to very few persons).

“The True Church teaches Jesus's message given in the Bible.”

If there is one. If there isn’t, or if it was removed and recovered after removal, so that at one time (longer than 24 hours, or even as long as an entire date at the time zone where a remnant of very few might be located) there wasn’t, that promise is broken.

“The Roman Catholic church decided to keep its heresies and is no longer the True Church.”

That makes it difficult to imagine that another Church was the True Church all the time. There are options for reconciling Matthew 28 with Roman Catholicism not being the true Church, but do not include it “no longer” being so.

• If Eastern Orthodoxy
• or some of the other Eastern Churches, like Miaphysites (in two different communions) or Nestorians / Assyrians were so
• or if Baptist Continuity were true and it was preserved along the Roman Catholic Church, not within it.

I have Christological reasons to reject number 2. I have some solid ecclesiological reasons to reject number 1. And for number 3, a knowledge of the history of the relevant ceturies would be sufficient. Hence, RCC is my pick.

Authorship of NT

Q

https://qr.ae/pv2I0X
Which apostle wrote most of the New Testament?
https://www.quora.com/Which-apostle-wrote-most-of-the-New-Testament/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 1h ago

If you mean “more than half” - no one did.

If you mean “more books than any other” it would be St. Paul. 14 books.

However, if you mean “more text” it is arguably still St. Paul.
16 + 16 + 13 + 6 + 6 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 13 = 100 chapters

Followed by St. Luke:
24 + 28 = 52

Followed by St. John:
21 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 22 = 50 chapters.

There are eight authors overall, and only within top three, St. Paul wrote slightly less than half he textmass. I am taking “chapter” as a unit of text length, because while pericopes can be long or short according to content, a “chapter” is a unit of (in the larger books, excepting psalms) c. 30 verses. There are exceptionally long chapters, like Luke 1, but exceptionally short ones are often one chapter books (two by St. John, one by St. Paul).

If the top three authors are at 202 chapters, what do the rest contribute beyond that?

Peter:
5 + 3 = 8 chapters

Matthew + Mark + James + Jude (one book each)
28 + 16 + 5 + 1 = 50

So the New Testament has 260 chapters, and St Paul wrote 100. 38.46 %. But, as said, that is more than anyone else, and more than half of the books (14, vs 13 by others).

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Analysing a Long Tirade by Jordan Peterson

Here is his tirade:

The Biggest THREAT To Our Society WE MUST FIGHT Against | Jordan Peterson's BRUTAL Speech
18th of March 2022 | Pursuit of Meaning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VDgysKmtU

Here is my analysis, time signatures (like the first one, 2:32) meaning what he says at that point is what I am (usually) debunking:

2:32 "plight of other societies, throughout the history of mankind"

Ambiguous. Other than Western?

Or other than Modern Western, and that would include the society of Queen St. Bathilde who outlawed selling Christians as slaves and who thereby over time made slavery obsolete?

2:53 "when they live in what's so far the best of all possible worlds"

• 1) "So far" and "what is" compared to what again? Is today's Western Civilisation better than the one of 13th C. France? Or is the Western Civilisation, including 13th C. France, better than extant alternatives?
• 2) It would seem Mr. Peterson is confusing "possible" with "actual" ...

And the overall concept of "not a shred of gratitude" asks the question whether "the society we live in" is what you should be first and foremost showing gratitude to.

Above God? Above close family and friends? Above the ones one chose to learn from (without school compulsion interfering in the choice, except in contributing to decrease its efficacy)? Above the Christian faith and Church?

Well, that kind of demand for gratitude sounds pretty much like the Babylonian view, probably how Haman felt about Mordekai ...

3:01 Oh, "resentment" and "arrogance" are:

• both of them emotions (so there is a purely emotive definition of arrogance, you need not look at the circumstances to see if someone's pride in what he has or scorn for what the other has can be objectively motivated - sounds too post-modernist for my taste!)
• and some emotions are bad and some are worse than others ...

To Aristotle, every emotion has its correct place. Every one is bad outside that correct justification.

But if we humour the point of view, it seems Mr. Peterson sounds a bit resentful in this speech. Against post-modernists as well as against people who are "5 % post-modernist" but who in crowds contribute to post-modernism prevailing.

If in twenty people are each 5 % post-modernist, either they have different 5 % of Derrida and therefore do not constitute a crowd, least of all one capable of imposing him - or they are sharing the same 5 % of Derrida and therefore not sharing the other 95 % of Derrida, and their crowd is therefore not overall post-modernist. Or there are cases between the two.

People who do impose post-modernism are people who together and each of them have more than 5 % of Derrida - or of some other post-modernist.

"resentment, arrogance and deceit"

Deceit is not an emotion, it is an act.

JP isn't mixing apples and oranges, he's mixing apples and orange juice.

3:42 "that even a building like this represents"

Picture shows the building type that is easier to distribute among shareholders of Blackrock than among normal people owning a building in a normal way.

Absolute wealth can reach a point where it is absolute insurance of someone's very top heavy power over someone else.

4:34 Some people don't agree with letting me speak. Or at least with allowing my speech to actually reach the public at large.

And I very certainly do believe in logos and in the individual. However, I do not believe in individual-ism, in making every right and title centred on an individual as opposed to a community. I believe the 1860's seeing an increase in individual rights at the detriment of some communal ones, has caused impoverishment.

4:48 "you are an exemplar of x" (post-modernism) is different from "you owe gratitude to x" (JP) exactly how?

If JP thinks I am an ungrateful traitor for not upholding all and sundry parts of Modern Western culture, and a Black Postmodernist thinks I'm a privileged White for being part of Western culture, how is one of them more or less Babylonian or collectivist than the other?

5:30 The "working class" saw its standard of living elevated as a working class after decades and centuries, but initially came into being as industrial working class by individually getting their standard of living in artisan and rural ownership degraded considerably.

5:43 I don't think you can make Yugoslavia responsible for the failings of Stalinism.

Note, I don't like Yugoslavian attitudes to education and Christianity and I am happy Croatia and Slovenia are now free.

But the oppression of thought went along with a modest prosperity of food and buildings, on the poorer side, but not a disaster - and the murderous part started after this was rejected.

One cannot compare this to the Holodomor.

And everyone who is against Capitalism is not necessarily a Marxist. He can be a Syndicalist. He can be into Albert de Mun and René de la Tour de Pin (two men who are to Christian trade unionism what another Albert and René are to comic books). And in case you don't know, the prosperity of a company like Loréal over the years comes from the Syndicalist heritage of the latter, via Action Française. He can be a Fascist, and there are Fascisms that didn't fail - like Franco's.

6:42 "you don't apologise and you don't back down"

What is it you'd like other groups than your version of Conservatism to do?

What is it we would need to do before God on a day like Good Friday?

How is dialogue preserved? By some people admitting guilt and apologising. I prefer if it's the right ones who admit guilt and to my taste, people like JP are among these right ones. He's resentful of people who are resentful of parts of the world we live in.

He's an inspiration for the kind of legislation Russia has against "hooliganism" - meaning disrespect for society.

Some societies do need to be disrespected, and since Adam, this applies to some degree to every one of them.

A good society can not only deal with those disrespecting it, but also learn from them (or at worst pretend to) ... recall that time when an English King stood with the back naked in a Cathedral and got scourged, like Christ on the pillar, for having contributed substantially to the murder of St. Thomas Beckett? Catholics attributing miracles to him were lucky that they lived under a Catholic (more or less) kingship and not under a disciple of JP.

7:36 That 80 % of theses aren't cited means what?

That a few examples of each thesis dutifully are bought means what?

Well, it means among other things that someone who is not a Neo-Marxist but who manages to pass a thesis also gets into the library and can be consulted.

It also means, some subjects are overfunded, and I'd gladly cut down JP's subject, namely psychology.

And when it comes to tax money, I'd be happy for a society in which people were not forced to attend sessions with psychologists and psychiatrists whom they don't think they need, and this obviously funded not by their paying voluntarily the fee, but by tax money or by them being charged the fee, like families in China are charged the bullets.

Some people in France speak of a foreign invasion in relation to the number of Mosques and of Halal Restaurants ... wait a minute, no one thinks France is occupied because of all the number of shrinks that can be seen having offices in Paris about as frequent as bakeries?

8:19 You want to defund OISE?

Sounds like an option - if you agree to homeschooling, unschooling and private schools. As I recall, JP, unfortunately, doesn't.

A clientele is forced into institutions paid by tax money.

If I shall be grateful to Swedish schools for teaching me nearly excellent French, why should I not also be resentful for them pushing me into what may probably have been what is called "clinical depression" through the bullying I went through? People have started to get aware of bullying - but have not taken the radical anti-bully option of saying : a bullied person's dad can take him or her out of school, without stating the reason, and a bully who's caught can be thrown out of school without a long process, since that particular type of education is an option, but neither a strict obligation, nor a strict right. (If anyone calls me a Neo-Marxist for saying this, he hasn't read Marx' and Engels': "10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c." - please note : "all children in public schools" - no children working at the farm, no children sweeping the floor of the master of their own future trade, no children homeschooled, no children schooled in private schools).

9:48 Note JP's tirade against freedom "it's not the kind of thing that makes people happy, it makes them troubled ..." ... yeah, I think Stalin would have been fairly proud of JP.

Freedom is a prerequisite for things that make one happy. Freedom is the prerequisite of responsibilities freely chosen and not just foisted on one.

For instance, if a boy of 14 and a girl of 12 are not free to marry and together educate their children, that's one freedom they lack, that's one source of happiness they lack and that's one source of income for people like JP when they deal with their frustrations, unless it's the undertaker who does so. Dito obviously for quitting school and starting a job (employment or own business, the latter normally less available in this age group, but not impossible) which is a normal prerequisite for caring for one's family.

King Louis IX married a girl of 12 or 13 (I've seen both figures, they didn't have modern statistics back then) and this was not because he was a jerk - he was a saint, canonised by the Church - and also not by abusing royal privileges of being "above the law" - it was absolutely within canon law. And some people have pretended this was of course not very common, it was extremely rare, people saying this have been conservatives ... well, they take their stats from England 1820, not from France around 27th of May 1234.*

I have taken other stats** from the great-great-grand-parents of Marie-Antoinette and a generation before (available on wiki) and got one in seven ladies married before 16. It was not extremely rare as they said.

10:03 "that you shoulder the responsibility of the freedom"

Fine ... there is a very old synonym for shouldering the responsibility, and that is marriage. When exactly did JP start advocating for lowering the marital age and for fewer people studying and more marrying young?

* Som JP-minded jerk goes nuts about my citing a fact from wikipedia. Or referring to a statistic which I have taken by painstakingly going over article after article on wiki, extracting exactly the relevant information, when a man married a woman, and getting the next one, for the article on the man or the article on the woman, by looking up the father and the mother and in each or one of these the year in which the persons married. This type of research argues I am a lazy slop, too pampered to look at the original works of reference - of which only little would be available on the internet, therefore blocked from one who researches from a position of homelessness. I had to rewrite the date and the ensuing sentence.

** Here is the article:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : A Generation or Two More Back
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2021/11/a-generation-or-two-more-back.html

Dick Harfield Went After the Flood on the Q "why did not other boats float?"

Q

In the Bible story of Noah’s flood, why did no boats, other than his Ark, float?
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Bible-story-of-Noah-s-flood-why-did-no-boats-other-than-his-Ark-float/answer/Dick-Harfield

Dick Harfield

lives in Sydney, Australia

Answered Sep 8, 2020

If one man could build a massive boat such as Noah’s Ark, then it is logical that other people had been building other boats that they could have used to escape from the biblical flood. However, myths have to be kept simple, and one of the necessary compromises in the telling of this story is that no one else in the world had a boat capable of saving any other humans on earth.

I

Terry Terril

1y

The whole story is so weak, I still can’t believe I ever fell for the concept. Even into adulthood I never paid much attention to the now known myth. I was like so many others when it comes to religious stories. Brain washed as a child. Never question anyone telling me such nonsense, and never taking the time to check the facts.

Now I believe religions are a business. They sell a product for profit. There is good and bad in all of them.

Keith Twort

1y

And it is not even biblical. Cherry picked from a Sumerian legend. An earlier version was found on a cuneiform tablet, with instructions how to make one! It was round!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

And would, unlike the Ark, have been drowned quickly in a world wide Flood.

Oh, before you consider the Sumerian legend deals with a local flooding, such as still happen, their “Ark” is supposed to have started from a city that’s 28 meters above sea level and gone to a mountain that’s 800 meters above sea level.

[Take off : Shuruppak, landing : Mount Nisir]

[Mon and Tue in the previous and following mean Monday and Tuesday of Holy Week, namely 11.IV and 12.IV.2022]

Keith Twort

Mon

Except that it was big! See the ark before Noah by Irving Finkel on youtube. And Ararat is a district, not a mountain.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

Even big, that round shape would not have been ideal.

I never mentioned Ararat being “a” mountain, the Bible says MountainS (pl) of Ararat = of Armenia.

Keith Twort

Mon

Whether it is ideal or not, it corresponds to the round craft of the time. Why would it not be ideal? Nobody would be going anywhere! And there is the matter of feeding the animals. You mention A mountain specifically 800m above sea level!!! And collecting and delivering animals and birds from other continents. And killing all the plants. Nope a complete fantastic fable in common with much other biblical nonsense.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

“of the time”

Remains to be proven.

“You mention A mountain specifically 800m above sea level!!!”

It so happens, a river can’t flood to several hundred meters above normal level. From Shuruppak to Zagros mountains.

So, even with the Babylonian preference, it could not be the kind of naturalistic flooding you had in mind, that source too is speaking of a world wide one.

“And collecting and delivering animals and birds from other continents.”

Here is the Biblical one - but who says they were living on other continents before the Flood or indeed that there were oceans between continents before the Flood?

Keith Twort

Mon

And how do you explain other civilisations that never even noticed a “world wide flood”? Or the complete absence of a geological record? No it is pure fiction.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

It seems you have dropped the argument “why didn’t all the other boats sink” and are in for a general debate. Fine with me.

Chinese Emperors didn’t have to deal with a world wide flood because it happened before Fu Hsi (not sure of the Pinyin spelling) came along in Palaeolithic post-Flood conditions.

Egypt’s creation account matches parts of the Flood account.

Hinduism took Flood and early post-Flood Ramayana adventure and transposed them to before the pre-Flood Mahabharata wars that match parts of Genesis 4 and 6.

Japan starts its mythology with the creation of Japan in post-Flood times, even if Jimmu came from elsewhere.

Peru and Babylon and Altai mountain plains all have stories of the Flood.

And the geological record from the Flood is disguised by being divided into very many differently labelled “geologic recordS” supposed to be from different times, like Permian or Palaeogene.

Keith Twort

Mon

And when exactly do you think the “flood” happened? When the “creation” was supposed to be 6000 BCE or so?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

I think that the creation was 5199 BC and the Flood 2957 BC.

Keith Twort

Mon

And the Cishan culture arose in China from 6500–5000 BCE. They don’t seem to have noticed a flood, or even a creation!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue

Would you mind telling me what remaining Cishan chronicles tell us, we are now 8522 after founding of Cishan and in 3543 after same epoch, they noticed no Flood?

Ah, wait … you mean in “carbon dated” 6500 to 5000 BC … carbon dates coincide with real dates from c. 1180 BC (fall of Troy), and before that are inflated.

Carbon dated 6500 BC would be somewhat post-Babel.

Keith Twort

Tue

Haha. If the flood fable is to be believed, the Cishan culture would have ceased to exist. Or are you postulating a Chinese ark!

Carbon dating ties up with several isotopic dating techniques and also ties up with geological dating. Sorry!

Consider coal measures a mile underground dating around 300 million old. Nicely debunking creation!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue

“ the Cishan culture would have ceased to exist”

Supposing it really existed as far back as 6500 or 5000 BC. If these are carbon dates of the outer limits, this gives the real dates 2355 - 2153 BC for the outer limits according to this extract from my carbon tables:

2355 B. Chr.

0.596678 pmC/100 (or 59.6678 pmC) , so dated as 6605 B. Chr.

...

2153 B. Chr.

0.706677 pmC/100 (or 70.6677 pmC), so dated as 5003 B. Chr.

Creation vs. Evolution : New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

What carbon dating is supposed to tie up with is much less interesting than the carbon dates themselves - as they tie up with Biblical chronology.

II

Geoffrey Walden

1y

I don’t think even the pope believes the flood story

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

Have you asked him?

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