Three Questions on PIE and Yamnaya

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Three Questions on PIE and Yamnaya (with one debate continued under Continued Debate with "Germanic Syntax") · Creation vs. Evolution: Is There a Correct Use of Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age? · Early human remains found to carry R1b · Would Proto-Indo-European Diverge Into Hittite, Mycenaean Greek, Indo-Aryan in The Biblical Time-Frame? · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Can a PIE Spread with Anatolian Farmers be Defended?

Q I

Which ethnic group has the most patrilineal decendance from Proto-Indo-Europeans?
https://www.quora.com/Which-ethnic-group-has-the-most-patrilineal-decendance-from-Proto-Indo-Europeans/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Noa Vinter

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

12.X.2023

We do not know, since we:

• first, do not know if the Proto-Indo-Europeans existed in the first place or their language is just a mirage of reconstruction
• second, do not know, supposing they existed, if they were Yamnaya people or much earlier Anatolian Neolithic Farmers.

Supposing they existed, and supposing either of the two scenarii, it would be on the one of the items Norwegians and on the other Corsicans, Sards, Spaniards.

I

UnderTheRunes9

13.X.2023

1; We do know they existed, this is genetic, linguistic, and archaeological fact.

2; Doesn't matter what you want to label them or what they called themselves, they existed and contributed DNA and language en masse regardless, Shut up.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13.X.2023

I think you are confusing archaeologic and genetic fact “Yamnaya” and “Yamnaya genome” with the linguistic speculation “Proto-Indo-European” — they are not the same, and I refused to confuse them.

UnderTheRunes9

13.X.2023

The language is there, the DNA is there. They correlate with one another in the archaeological time frame and they follow eachother in archaeology. Either proven by linguistics or Indo European religious artifacts. I think you need to shut the fk up, you clearly have zero fking clue. The DNA and linguistics are still here, and they STILL correlate with one another. Again, all the archaeology correlates in time. Where we find Yamnaya Burials or Indo-European DNA, we also find signs or INDO-EUROPEAN cultures. Shut up. You have little clue. THEY existed, they weren't a ghost population and we can correlate the spread of Indo European with the spread of their Genome and culture. That is FACT. Yamnaya and Yamnaya Genome would be one in the same, no? A Yamnaya would have Yamnaya or PIE Genome, lol. It doesn't matter ehat you label them kiddo, they existed and that is 100% fact. You can call them Indo-Europeans of Yamnaya, doesn't Matter; nothing changes the archaeological and linguistic facts. Everyone with their Genome, speaks Indo European and the archaeological record they both correlate and appear around the same time (the DNA and beginnings of IE and IE religion) everyone from Bell Beaker to Corded Ware derived Scythians or Sarmat have R1 Y DNA, which experienced its spread with Indo-European Steppe Herders. All that, FACT and you cant disprove sht! It's fact! Every single Indo-European population had majority Indo-European R1 Y DNA, associated with the Yamnaya and their ANE derivation. So not matter what you label or wish to call them; it's there. The DNA and linguistics are always together. Educate yourself bud.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13.X.2023

The Indo-European languages are here.

PIE is not here, and the PIE that was reconstructed has been reconstructed pretty often. “What was the fastest changing language of the 1870’s?” — “Proto-Indo-European” (new propositions are still being made).

“They correlate with one another in the archaeological time frame and they follow eachother in archaeology.”

We have no trace of the language of Yamnaya as spoken then. We have no trace of the language of the Yamnaya invaders of Europe as spoken then.

Therefore we have no correlation.

“I think you need to shut the fk up, you clearly have zero fking clue.”

I think you show as much culture as you have a clue …

“The DNA and linguistics are still here, and they STILL correlate with one another.”

Norway has a large Yamnaya genome, speaks Indo-European. Finland has a large Yamnaya genome, speaks Finno-Ugrian. Corsica and Crete have very low Yamnaya genomes, far more Ancient Neolithic Farmer genome, speak Indo-European. What did you say about correlation, again?

“Where we find Yamnaya Burials or Indo-European DNA, we also find signs or INDO-EUROPEAN cultures.”

Indo-European languages is very well defined. In the numerals 1 - 10 and the numeral 100, in the word for mother, in certain verb endings (also found in Finno-Ugrian, most Germanic languages lost most of them), in certain Ablaut phenomena (similar but not identic to those of Semitic) … but Indo-European “culture” isn’t.

“THEY existed, they weren't a ghost population and we can correlate the spread of Indo European with the spread of their Genome and culture. That is FACT.”

You cannot correlate the spread of Indo-European languages with the spread of their genome, because:

• Anatolian, Cretan, Corsican populations have nearly none of it (OK, Crete seems to have had a smaller influx of Doric invaders)
• We do not know if Indo-European was one language that spread or several that converged
• and even supposing it was one that spread, we cannot tell when it spread, because it was not written down.

Yamnaya population arrived in France c. 3500 BC, I recall (conventional carbon dates), the Ancient Neolithic Farmer population several thousand years earlier (also conventional carbon dates), the earliest we have in writing from France is they spoke Indo-European languages, like Celtic and Ligurian, except for the Vasconic part. When did the Indo-European arrive? Did it arrive from inside adapting to other languages outside? We do not know.

You seem very concerned with Norse culture. Have you checked out what Norse myth is closest to? Neighbouring Indo-European myths? Or Ancient Near East myths, like Babylonian, Egyptian, some tinge of Zoroastrian or Hebrew apocalyptic literature? Check it out before you target Norse culture as “Indo-European”!

“Yamnaya and Yamnaya Genome would be one in the same, no?”

Yamnaya is first of all a form of grave, then Yamnaya genome was found in such graves.

“A Yamnaya would have Yamnaya or PIE Genome, lol.”

PIE is precisely the point I contest.

“You can call them Indo-Europeans of Yamnaya, doesn't Matter; nothing changes the archaeological and linguistic facts.”

Calling them Indo-Europeans is presuming, with insufficient evidence, the correlation between linguistics and archaeology.

When it comes to Mycenaean presence in Terramare culture in 1200 BC, we can be relatively sure they at least had ancestors who spoke Mycenaean Greek, since we know the people with same genome in Greece wrote Mycenaean Greek. No such luck for PIE and Yamnaya, OK, did you get it this time?

A

UnderTheRunes9

13.X.2023

Call em what you want Kiddo, it doesnt change the DNA nor linguistic connections. I can call them wiggly tigglys, doesn't change their existence or impact. I'm Norwegian, don't have a choice unless I wish to self hate.

Norse is Indo-European, I care not what bullsht you claim. It Indo-European Mythology, plain and Simple. With all the tropes and burial practices observed. Divine horse twins, Thunder/Storm God, etc…

Lol, Germanic paganism is far more related in theme to Celtic and Hellenic than ANYTHING in the Middle East. Keep spewing that bullsht though, it's a good thing we have Bronze Age Indo European sun chariots from Denmark. You know who brought Bronze to Europe en masse, right? Western Steppe Herders.

According to you, the DNA and languages (as well as their relation) just popped out of the ass of nowhere.

Also, Germanic Mythology has ZERO relation to ANYTHING in the Middle East. Try again.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

14.X.2023

Taking the middle east stuff under González.

B

UnderTheRunes9

13.X.2023

Point is, those who carry R1b or R1a Y DNA, will speak Indo-European. That is fact, overall population not individuals ofc. R1b and R1a DNA is associated with Western Steppe Herders. You can't argue or bullsht your way around that John. It's just fact.

Whats your theory for why all speakers of IE carry R1 Y DNA or other related? Not sht, exactly as I figured.

I guess we can also use the words for wheeled vehicles and the Horse too. This also supports PIE. Yamnaya had both of these.

Also, claiming Germanic Mythology is Middle Eastern or influenced by is pure bullsht. All Indo-European tropes, all Indo-European burial practices and animism, with I'm sure a healthy dose of Mesolithic and Neolithic influence too, as I'd expect by any mixing population. What a weird stretch, especially when we have Bronze Age Indo European artifacts from Scandinavia, and IE beliefs. Your claim about Y DNA correlation and language is also horsesht. Just like Latin was passed onto Non romans. That can easily explain this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

14.X.2023

“those who carry R1b or R1a Y DNA, will speak Indo-European.”

Haplogroup R1b - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b

UnderTheRunes9

14.X.2023

Yeah.. what does this prove? Nothing. All speakers of Indo-European have R1b or R1a DNA en masse. All, even Afghanistan who speak Pashtun. Get over it. Also, if you're referring to Islamified Iranic people, that's a given they would speak Arabic and not Indo-Aryan. So, doesn't really support your point as these lands Still have mass IE Y DNA and thousands of IE Speakers such as Pashtun or Kurd (both of whom have R1a Y DNA)

You believe in, Inbreeding fairytales anyhow and think we all come form some Inbred Levantine family. Nope.

The fact you know what Chromosomal DNA is and still believe that lunatic sht is crazy. Lol.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

15.X.2023

Your last sentence hails more from modern Norway (and its criminal Barnevernet and slightly more criminal Breivik) than from Yamnaya, I’m sure.

Did you spot the large dark purple spot around Lake Chad?

Now, take a look at this quote. It’s a standard version of where Villanova and Urnfeldt cultures came from:

Starting circa 1300 BCE, a new Bronze Age culture flourished around the Alps thanks to the abundance of metal in the region, and laid the foundation for the classical Celtic culture. It was actually the succession of three closely linked culture: the Urnfield culture, which would evolve into the Hallstatt culture (from 1200 BCE) and eventually into the La Tène culture (from 450 BCE). After the Unetice expansion to Western Europe between 2300 and 1800 BCE, the Urnfield/Hallstatt/La Tène period represents the second major R1b expansion that took place from Central Europe, pushing west to the Atlantic, north to Scandinavia, east to the Danubian valley, and eventually as far away as Greece, Anatolia, Ukraine and Russia, perhaps even until the Tarim basin in north-west China (=> see Tarim mummies.

R1b-U152 would have entered Italy in successive waves from the northern side of the Alps, starting in 1700 BCE with the establishment of the Terramare culture in the Po Valley. From 1200 BCE, a larger group of Hallstatt-derived tribes founded the Villanova culture (see below). This is probably the migration that brought the Italic-speaking tribes to Italy, who would have belonged mainly the Z56 clade of R1b-U152. During the Iron Age, the expansion of the La Tène culture from Switzerland is associated with the diffusion of the Z36 branch, which would generate the Belgae around modern Belgium and in the Rhineland, the Gauls in France, and the Cisalpine Celts in Italy.

Then take a look at this, a non-standard view of what language Villanova / Urnfeldt spoke:

This linguistic proposition rests on two historical/archaeological propositions – an uncontroversial one that the Etruscans came from the Carpathian basin, and a highly controversial one that identifies them as a proto-Hungarian/Uralic people.

The first of these had already been demonstrated by the late 1960s by archaeologists such as Hugh Hencken, who highlighted the cultural continuities between the Urnfeld cultures of Central Europe and the proto-Villanovan cultures of Northern and Central Italy, suggesting that the former culture had introduced a series of innovations to the latter, such as hydraulic engineering, the horse, the sword. Hencken also pointed out that the Urnfelders had probably left their signature among the Sea Peoples who attacked Mycenae and the Egypt of Ramesses III towards the end of the second millennium B.C., in the form of ships with prows in the form of horned birds’ heads, as well as a name cited by Egyptian sources, the Tursha which agrees with the Greek name for the Etruscans, the Tyrsenoi, and as Alinei tentatively suggests, with Türk.

Lawrence Barfield noted that Central Europe was the ‘industrial heartland’ of Bronze Age Europe, whose inhabitants developed their metalworking skills and by extension, the military technology that would have allowed them to become a colonial elite, capable of seeking mineral resources elsewhere and subjugating other less technologically advanced peoples. In this sense, their exploitation of Central Italy’s mineral wealth during the Bronze Age is hardly surprising. Alinei nevertheless believes that this process of gradual infiltration and scouring Europe for high quality mines may have begun as early as the middle of the 3rdmillennium, accelerating during the Polada culture. While the rule seems to have been peaceful coexistence between these Central Europeans and the Italic locals of the Palafitte/Terramare cultures, it appears that around 1250 B.C., migration from the Carpathian basin led to conflict and the overthrow of these local cultures, after which the proto-Etruscans moved into Central Italy and eventually carved out their own state that became the locus of the Villanovan culture.

In other words, if Alinei is right, the R1b bloodline certainly arrived in Villanova, but not with an Indo-European language, but instead with Etruscan as an early form of Hungarian.

Sources:

Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA)
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Mario Alinei - Etrusco - Turkic World
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/34Etruscans/EtruscanAndHungarianEn.htm

UnderTheRunes9

15.X.2023

Mario Alinei and his Paleolithic theory is pure bullsht and NO ONE in the academic worlds even considers it🤣

This is too good. There are also some modern theories that take from him, such as the Sardo-Babylonian bullsht. Which is what this is akin too, and Sumerian-Babylonian.

Well, it's not accepted or found on any reputable source including NCBI (the number one peer reviewed institution for this subject) so, it was either peer reviewed and unfounded or it's just 100% Unfounded.

You also realize we can track the SNP and DSR values of the Yamnaya derived R1b? Which is what our R1b reads, we also have their specific subclades as well. You also need to make an argument now for R1a and the Corded Ware.

We can literally track their Chromosomal Mutations across Eurasia using SNP or DSR values.

Backed yourself into a pseudo nationalist corner.

Hans, there is a REASON these aren't the accepted theories, there is a REASON why these theories are a dime a dozen and still NONE of them have held up nor replaced the general consensus.

You need to convince the academic world, REAL linguists, and REAL archeologists, and REAL biologists. Not me bubba, you're barking up the wrong tree. Take your findings to a Peer review board and let's see how far you get.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

15.X.2023

“You need to convince the academic world, REAL linguists, and REAL archeologists, and REAL biologists.”

Why are you staying on here instead of bringing THEM on?

Alinei was Docent in Italian Studies in Utrecht, so he was a real part of the academic world.

UnderTheRunes9

15.X.2023

I don't need to bring anyone on. It's already the accepted academic stance and opinions. You're the one, along with Alinei who have Fringe theories. With not nearly as much evidence or links as the Western Steppe Herder theory, despite it's own flaws; it is the most likely hypothesis and most commonly accepted by the majority of those who partake in these studies. Even more damning is Alinei being a student of Utrecht and educated, and his hypothesis is still NOT accepted nor holds enough weight as opposed to the Proto Indo European hypothesis.

So, again; You need not convince me. I do enjoy the outlandish banter from you though.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

16.X.2023

“It's already the accepted academic stance”

So? Among whom? The people YOU associate with Academia, and Alinei was an Academic, even if that’s news to you.

“it is (1) the most likely hypothesis and (2) most commonly accepted by the majority of those who partake in these studies.”

You seem to take the two as synonymous.

“Even more damning is Alinei being a student of Utrecht and educated, and his hypothesis is still NOT accepted”

You seem to place superstiotiously great weight on academic consensus. Is that the new Völva for you?

II

Luis M. González

12.X.2023

The Yamnaya contribution in the modern populations of Eastern Europe ranges from 46.8% among Russians to 42.8% in Ukrainians. Finland has the highest Yamnaya contributions in all of Europe (50.4%).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13.X.2023

I heard it was Norway on a video.

Anyway, the question was about “Proto-Indo-European” and not about “Yamnaya”.

Three candidates for PIE are : 1) Yamnaya population, 2) Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, 3) neither of them and none at all, since it didn’t exist. I enumerated all three to the disgust of “Under the Runes” who wanted to dogmatise “Yamnaya = PIE” …

A

Luis M. González

13.X.2023

Oh well, everything is open to discussion, I guess.

Languages and genes don't always go together and the truth is that they always end up mixed with various outcomes.

My own non-expert opinion is that scientists are trying to explain all this with simplistic explanations that are not realistic. Identifying PIE with Yamnaya (or previously Kurgan) and Neolithic farmers with the old Europe is very simplistic, IMHO.

A few scholars speculate that, at least some varieties of Indo-European, entered Europe through Anatolia and the Mediterranean.

In any case, what we're learning thanks to autosomal DNA is fascinating.

B

UnderTheRunes9

13.X.2023

You lie, you enumerated none of these. Lol. Try again, I never claimed it were the Yamnaya but as of now that is where the DNA falls. Until you have a better theory, or something with more credibility than IE Y DNA and its obvious correlation with IE cultures, nothing you say means sht. You just wish to be contrarian, which is fine as I too am on certain topics and especially if they have enough to use. You, don't have anything. The PIE theory is currently the best explanation we have, does it mean PIE originated with Yamnaya? No, not at all. However it is fact, IE culture, Kurgans, and IE Y DNA spread with them, and with that came IE Languages. We can get into the nuances all day, doesn't propose a new theory nor have you said amythi confounding. You'd deny Homo sapiens originated in Africa just for the sake of an argument. I don't care about the Nuances, once you can explain away R1 Y DNA and it's major correlation to Indo-European/Indo-Aryan religion and language, or propose a more thorough or grounded hypothesis; you're just spewing sht. Plain and simple. Especially with your weird claim about Germanic paganism being influenced or of origin in middle Eastern populations. That's just bullsht. Thousands of IE kurgan Burials around Bronze age Scandinavia, many with Bronze artifacts associated with Western Steppe Herders. Western Steppe Herders, Yamnaya or whatever you wish to label them, Introduced metallurgy and Bronze to Europe. You need to contend with that fact too.

Oh and Germanic Mythology, including Norse IS INDO-EUROPEAN. Thats also a fact. Divine horse twins are but one Trope that appear in EVERY SINGLE IE religion, including Hinduism. I’d love to see your source and evidence for Germanic Mythology being Levatine or North African in origin, it should be a good laugh and equivalent to African American hoteps🤣🤣 Your first name is of middle Eastern/Levatine origin though. I do know that.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

14.X.2023

“You'd deny Homo sapiens originated in Africa just for the sake of an argument.”

I’m not sure how close Adam was to Neanderthals or Denisovans, but my hunch is, these were part nephelim, and the main population of the Ark which was the homo sapiens race involved Noah, tenth from Adam.

Yes, he was probably closer to Homo sapiens than to the other two pre-Flood races, and he was created in the Jerusalem region.

“You lie, you enumerated none of these. Lol.”

Not in the same order, but exactly these three, learn to read, Mr incompetent.

“with more credibility than IE Y DNA and its obvious correlation with IE cultures,”

I have never denied Yamnaya DNA or its correlation with certain material cultures involving wagons or cremations of corpses.

I am pointing out, again and again, that these are no proof of Indo-European language.

“Oh and Germanic Mythology, including Norse IS INDO-EUROPEAN.”

• gods create earth from a monster = Enuma Elish
• Baldr is killed by Hodr = Osiris and Seth
• everyone before the Flood was of giant stature (even those not evil nephelim) = a belief held by some early Christians and presumably Josephus about pre-Flood times
• Yggdrasil gnawed by a snake = looks like dragons ramping pillars of the netherworld in Babylonian depictions.

“Divine horse twins are but one Trope that appear in EVERY SINGLE IE religion, including Hinduism.”

O K … what divine horse twins do you find in Norse myth?

Wait, you were not comparing Sól and Máni to Castor and Pollux or Ashvins or Ašvieniai?

Oh, Ašvieniai actually does make some sense as a parallel, but Sól and Máni are so marginal, they are not aesir, not vanir and do not appear in many stories, or none at all except:

• creation story in Voluspá
• perhaps Sigurd and Brynhild adressing prayers to them, unless it really was to Apollo and Diana, actually regarded as divinities of healing by the Romans.

I would even if accepting Sól and Máni as a parallel put it lower in rank than my parallels to Ancient Near East. And I think there was a reason for those parallels. Odin being the disciple of Joshua Ben Pekharia who defected and founded an idolworshipping sect, even of it was wrong of Jews to deliberately conflate him with Jesus.

BC

GermanicSyntax

14.X.2023

Hey bub, you need to change the mind of the academic community and all accepted intellectuals.

You don't need to change my mind or convince me.

Germanic Mythology is still Indo European, I dont think you prove anything but a lack of understanding of Germanic Mythology and its origins. You comparisons are coincidence at best, weak attempt at relation at worst and obviously skew the narrative. Germanic Mythology predates any contact in the middle East, now is that to say Neolithic Farmers didn't bring some of their own stories from around the Middle East? No, but Bronze age nor Early Iron age Jastorf (Proto Germanics) knew sht about the Middle East or their beliefs.

I can also name dozens of reasons why ITS NOT related, such as being Animistic and Polytheist. I don't need to though, if you've actually done any Research you'll find Germanic Mythology is one of the closest in terms of beliefs to the Original Indo European religion.

Or their Afterlife, all 3 are VERY different.

Or their origin of Language (Woden hanged for 9 days and nights to pass the knowledge pf the Runes)

Literally none of this reflected Christianity;

“The accounts of Völuspá are contrasted with those in Vafþrúðnismál and Grímnismál. These say that Odin created the world from the body of the giant Ymir. Odin and his brothers were in turn descended from Búri, who had been created by the primeval cow Auðumbla. Parallels to Auðumbla are found in Indo-Iranian religion, testifying to the ancient Indo-European origins of Germanic mythology.[1]

A central point in the Germanic cosmos is the tree Yggdrasil.[3] Germanic mythology prophesises the end of the world in a coming Ragnarök.[1]”

Not a fkin thing there to back you. Did God have brothers? Was he, himself a descendant of another? Does he give power and worship to other God's? Is there a Yggdrasil in your Jewish fairytales? All NO. An astounding NO.

“Thor has many parallels in Indo-European mythology. He appears to have been worshiped extensively by the Germanic peoples, particularly warriors and the common people. A notable brother of Thor is Baldr. Other significant Æsir include the trickster god Loki; Heimdallr, who is reported in Rígsþula to have fathered the three classes of men; and Týr, a god associated with war and who lost his hand to the wolf Fenrir, who some scholars have proposed on linguistic evidence may have been a central deity in the Germanic pantheon in earlier times.[1]”

Trundholm sun chariot - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundholm_sun_chariot

Irminsul - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul#:~:text=An%20Irminsul%20(Old%20Saxon%20'great,blessed%20by%20Pope%20Leo%20III.

Actually, Christians steal from Germanics in the form of Easter which the tradition and and name ae stolen from a Germanic Deity, Ēostre or Ostara. So, tackle that. Easter isn't even your holiday. Christmas isn't either, you're in the ering month. Get a fkin time appropriate calendar. Lol, what fkin Middle Eastern country has Reindeer or Coniferous trees? Or artic snow fall? Lol.

Seems you steal from the Germanic people. You and your fairytales.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

15.X.2023

“a lack of understanding of Germanic Mythology”

No such thing. It’s really Norse mythology. Not proven to have been shared by Clovis before his conversion, or by Goths before theirs. Remember how Tolkien wanted to create a “mythology for England” — that’s because Anglo-Saxons didn’t leave any mythology behind.

But for Norse Mythology, I was a total buff of it in my teens, and still am fairly knowledgeable.

“and its origins.”

It’s origins is precisely what I dispute you on.

Or is it really you I should debate?

“you need to change the mind of the academic community and all accepted intellectuals. You don't need to change my mind or convince me.”

First of all, I am an intellectual, perhaps not an accepted one. Spending 22 years on the internet mostly debating and writing essays, may not qualify me as an accepted intellectual, but I’m certainly an intellectual rather than for instance a sportsman, an artist, or engaged in physical production.

Second, you want to flaunt your confidence in the community at large, fine, you did so. If you are seriously saying this as a suggestion, how about getting one of your accepted intellectuals to quora to debate me, instead of budging in yourself?

Third, I am well aware there was a time back in the days of Duméznil and his Swedish models when what you say about “indo-european mythology” was consensus, can you mention someone a third of their decades ago who takes it for granted that Norse myth is simply indo-european?

“You comparisons are coincidence at best, weak attempt at relation at worst and obviously skew the narrative.”

Not as coincidential and weak as “divine horse twins” … the overall narrative is different in each mythology, indo-european or ANE peoples. It’s not the point of comparison. For either side.

“Germanic Mythology predates any contact in the middle East,”

Norse myth, which you mislabel as “Germanic” (some tribes seem to have shared part of their theology, see Lombards and Saxons, probably Anglo-Saxons) is known from sources that were written down post AD 1000.

It is very different from the things we can see from Tacitus about Germanic theologies of his time (except Swabians adoring “Mercury” if that is Odin).

Odin would have been in the Uppsala region about the time of Caesar (according to Snorre’s timeline) or of Cyrus and Alexander (according to that of Saxo, which I definitely think is inflated by serialising parallel dynastic lines to make Denmark prior to Gorm the Old seem more unified than it was). My proposition is, he was from the Middle East. I provisorically (though very fondly) identify him with the Yeshu of the “early” Talmud parts of his story — falling out with his rabbi and becoming idolater. Alternative, he could have been a Druid, who could have had ANE elements in their religion from Celtic-Carthaginian contacts. Well prior to AD 1000.

“Or their origin of Language (Woden hanged for 9 days and nights to pass the knowledge pf the Runes)”

That’s not about the origin of language. It could easily represent a part of Yeshu’s carreer, initiations in the Edessa region, between Palestine and either Swedes or more probably in his time Swabians (see Tacitus) though his dynasty later came to Sweden (howes of Old Uppsala have archaeological material so far back to 300’s or 400’s AD).

Speaking of runes, they are in prosaic fact taken from Etruscan or similar (Bolsano?), from West Greek, from Phoenicians = from Ancient Near East.

AFTERTHOUGHT

Thor has one pretty exact Indo-European parallel.

Taranis. Perhaps two, with Perkunas and Perun.

He also has a parallel in Baal Hadad.

BCE

UnderTheRunes9

15.X.2023

You realize they descend from the same Iron age populations before the diffusion? Norse are Northern Germanic, they share the same Y DNA as the majority of Germans, Dutch, and especially Frisians in the form of I1a ans R-U106 (S21) or R1a-Z284 (most common in Swedes) literally just a continuation of their ancestors and their customs.

Clown, you should Google the Jastorf Culture and Proto Germanic or just the common Paternal origins.

Haplogroup I1a (Y-DNA)
https://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Haplogroup_I1a_(Y-DNA)

New map of R1b-S21 (U106)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/new-map-of-r1b-s21-u106.26700/

I1a Y DNA ans R1b-U106 are associated with Germanic people. It's their ancestors clown boy. Bauvarii, Saxons, Thuringians all have their origins in Iron Age Jastorf Culture and the Nordic Bronze Age. This is where all their Y DNA, linguistics, and origins. Proto Germanic was the Jastorf culture, this was before ANY of the Germanic tribes spread out or become individual. Germanic Mythology is ancestral. They come from the SAMW FKING BRONZE AGE AND EIA POPULATIONS!

Jastorf culture - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

Jastorf culture - Story
https://www.routeyou.com/en-de/location/view/48124774/jastorf-culture

Nordic Bronze Age - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

Bronze Age Scandinavia
https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/bronze-age-scandinavia

You're absolutely uneducated. These people from Saxons to Geats all share the same Paternal origins and late Bronze age, Early Iron age ancestry.

The Goths were Eastern Germanic and most likely originated in the parallel Wielbark culture and Przeworsk along with Vandali, Heruli, and Gepids.

Wielbark culture - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture

Przeworsk culture - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przeworsk_culture

Here, you can run DNA for yourself;

Admixture JS 22.05
https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Hans-Georg Lundahl

15.X.2023

You realise that the Jastorf population were perhaps Nerthus worshippers but certainly not Odin worshippers, and we know next to nothing about their religion, except for occasional human sacrifice to probably Nerthus or a sun-goddess?

Or that, if I1a is so important, perhaps the Germanic language comes from the ancestry of I1a Y chromosome? And not from that of R1b?

UnderTheRunes9

15.X.2023

Well no, as Proto Germanic and Germanic as a whole is still related to other Indo-Europeans languages, in countries where I1a is not prevalent or even found. Unless you're suggesting I1a spread the Indo-European languages. We then need to explain R1b and R1a away.

Nerthus is just another Germanic deity, no one ever claimed Woden was the highest, not here anyhow. He seems to have taken over, but we know for plenty of Germanic people he was not their main deity. Plenty of Germanic people had their own father deity such as Seaxneat for the Saxons, or Tiw. Yngvi-Freyr was also important to North Sea Germanic tribes.

Nerthus is associated with the WAGON procession, of which Western Steppe Herders are heavily associated with and the spoked wheel, hows that?

Nerthus is also synonymous with Njörðr who is also associated with Wagons and is a male.

Nerthus Norse Goddess: Unveiling the Mysteries of the Germanic Deity - Old World Gods
https://oldworldgods.com/norse/nerthus-norse-goddess/

Nerthus | Germanic Goddess, Pagan Religion, Worship Rituals
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nerthus

Religions and God's evolve, as do the beliefs of the people especially when hundreds of Years are removed and thousands of miles removed from their origins.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

16.X.2023

“is still related to other Indo-Europeans languages”

But genetically or by Sprachbund?

That’s one of the questions.

Another one is, if genetically, i e by a common protolanguage, was it from Yamnaya or was it from Neolithic farmers?

“Unless you're suggesting I1a spread the Indo-European languages.”

I don’t actually know what haplogroup is most represented in Neolithic farmers, and if you ask me, I don’t think Indo-European languages spread, I think they emerged by mutual diffusion of what restrospectively is seen as Indo-European traits. Some of which could obviously come from Yamnaya culture, even if it was for instance Finno-Ugric in language (there is an overlap between Finno-Ugrian and IE traits).

“Nerthus is just another Germanic deity, no one ever claimed Woden was the highest, not here anyhow.”

The problem is, or the two problems are:

• many traits which belong to Norse mythology are only recorded in connection with the Norse peoples, in which Odin is the highest;
• in this same Norse mythology, Nerthus is absent.

There is obviously some kind of connexion between Njörðr and Nerthus, but if you ask me, Njörðr was called Nerthus because he was a priest of Nerthus before becoming an associate of the immigrant Odin.

“Nerthus is associated with the WAGON procession, of which Western Steppe Herders are heavily associated with and the spoked wheel, hows that?”

Perhaps the period of Nerthus worship owed more to Western Steppe Herders than the subsequent period of Odinism did?

“Njörðr who is also associated with Wagons”

Exactly how so? I recall no such association. I look Njörðr up, find no mention of the word wagon. Nor on Njörun, possibly his wife. There is no trace of wagons being central to Njörðr worship, as we know they were very central to Nerthus worship.

“Religions and God's evolve, as do the beliefs of the people especially when hundreds of Years are removed and thousands of miles removed from their origins.”

The remoteness as such is a good reason why “evolution” “replacing” and “mutual influence” are options difficult to decide between.

If you ask me, when Odin arrived from the Ancient Near East, or from Gaul, if Druidism was influenced by the Ancient Near East, he replaced lots of, but not totally all of the previous religion among either Swabians or Swedes. As his stepson, actual son of Njörðr, Yngwi-Frey, had a son Fjolnir who died in a meed vat in the presumable time of Augustus (going with Snorre rather than Saxo), he lived while people were still learning how to read cuneiform over in Eastern Turkey and Northern Syria, as well as down in Iraq. A bit like Luther’s disciples Hans Tausen and Olaus Petri replaced Catholicism, by doctrines from Cicero.

BCF

GermanicSyntax

22.X.2023

You realize Germanic and “Norse” (literally North Germanic) all share the same common ancestral culture and religion right? How fkin dmb are you?

It's just as much a Western Germanics religion as is a Norsemans. They LITERALLY descend from the EXACT same Nordic Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Jastorf Cultures.

Literally just a continuation of what their forefathers practiced.

You can't win this buddy, what you FAIL to understand is that Scandinavians and Central European ans NW European Germanic people have the EXACT same Iron Age (Proto Germanic and Elder Futhark) ancestors as Scandinavians

You have a fundamental misunderstanding.

It's still Germanic mythology or Norse, doesn't matter what you call it kiddo. It's ancestral to all of them, you clown. Prove me wrong, tell me that U106 and I1a Germans or Dutch ARENT related to the Norse and please do tell how Germans and Dutch are actually Elaine's?

Apparently this is what you believe. I expect nothing less from a GROWN ADULT who puts FAITH (inherent dishonesty) into fairytales.

Like GERMANIC mythology.

He has no Parallel in Baal or whatever the fk. Maybe coincidences, no Parallels.

Nothing you claim will EVER change the common genetic origins or DNA, all of which make your point rather, POINTLESS.

It's like telling a Native American from the Sioux nation, he can't go to “Native American” pride rallies hosted by Cherokee Natives.

They all come from the same ancestors and place you uneducated looney.

Germans COME from Scandinavia and the Nordic Bronze Age and Jastorf culture, as do all the Germanic tribes and their origins.

We can trace it back using their modern and ancient Y DNA.

I suggest you be quiet.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

22.X.2023

“You realize Germanic and “Norse” (literally North Germanic) all share the same common ancestral culture and religion right?”

I realise you presume this, while I happen to know for a fact, that Nerthus worship with moss corpses was abandoned by both AFTER they split, which means that they can have exchanged it for DIFFERENT things.

“Germans COME from Scandinavia and the Nordic Bronze Age and Jastorf culture, as do all the Germanic tribes and their origins.

“We can trace it back using their modern and ancient Y DNA.”

Since I have never denied this why do you pretend to make it a point against me?

AFTERTHOUGHT

“It's like telling a Native American from the Sioux nation, he can't go to “Native American” pride rallies hosted by Cherokee Natives.”

W a i t … are you under the impression that Germanic tribes generally became Christians under conditions similar to the Saxons when Charlemagne came in?

The English and US settlers had a tendency to treat Red Indians even a bit worse than Charlemagne treated Saxons.

Swedes, Norwegians, Anglo-Saxons became Christian after civil wars, with sometimes heavy persecution of Christians by the Pagan reaction. Danes, Bavarians, Franks (with the conquered Alemanni) became Christians in loyal submission to the king’s decision. Iceland became so by decision of the Allthing in AD 1000. Only Saxons became Christians due to colonisation. Even that one much slighter than what Sioux and Cherokee suffered.

GermanicSyntax

22.X.2023

No, I was attacking your point on Germanic paganism. Just because Continental Germanics are not North Germanic, doesn't mean they don't share common CULTURAL or GENETIC origins.

It's Germanic paganism bud, or whatever you wish to call it. It was ancestral to all those Germanic tribes NO MATTER HOW you try to spin it.

They descend genetically from the same people and cultures. A Saxon in 300ad Rhineland, has just as much right and claim to Germanic paganism as the Norse. It's literally shared ancestral, cultural, and linguistic origins.

Made zero mentions of Christianity. Lol. Your illiterate. Again; Telling a Saxon he can't worship HIS ancestral Germanic religion is like telling a Native Cherokee and Sioux they can't both identify as “Native” because they are slightly different.

They still come from the same ancestral homeland and cultures, just like Continental and North Germanic people.

Prove me wrong, you can post Y DNA haplogroup frequencies if need.

If your entire comment was predicated on your weak assumption about comparing Manifest destiny to the Saxons being Christianized, well; you wasted your time and mine.

It wasnt.

Norse Mythology, Germanic Mythology they all share the same cultural, linguistic, and genetic origins. Doesn't really matter what you call it, doesn't change the biology.

So, if the Iron Age Proto Germanic Jastorf had the Elder Futhark (they did) thus they had to have a base of the Germanic pantheon or culture then all of its descendant populations no matter the direction they would have spread be it North or South, would have had the same linguistic origins (they do) the same genetic origins (they do) and only you would deny they have the same Religious Origins or had the same beliefs.

Sounds like some pseudo revisionist tripe to me.

They FACTUALLY have the same Genetic and linguistics origins, but to say they had the same religious beliefs? Somehow that just baffles you, it's Impossible. The Proto Germanics who went south must have been Zoroastrians, Right? No way they had the same Religious beliefs as their forefathers. Not possible.

Just using your logic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

23.X.2023

“Just because Continental Germanics are not North Germanic, doesn't mean they don't share common CULTURAL or GENETIC origins.”

Just because they share Genetic origins and therefore certainly SOME Cultural ones, doesn’t mean they share ALL Cultural ones.

If Snorre recorded Odin (and then his stepson Frey) was an immigrant starting the Yngling dynasty, it could be Norwegian patriotism, since Ynglings were the Norwegian dynasty by his time. But since Saxo’s patriotism was Danish, why would he confirm it, unless it was an actual half recalled memory by way of oral history? He would have been the external or FOREIGN cultural influence.

And while he certainly had some influence on non-Norse Germanic peoples, there is no guarantee for how much or if it was even the same.

“They FACTUALLY have the same Genetic and linguistics origins, but to say they had the same religious beliefs?”

We know for a fact that the religion described by Tacitus differs from that described by Snorre and Saxo.

“No way they had the same Religious beliefs as their forefathers. Not possible.”

No, not possible, since the Odin worship and the Nerthus worship clearly differ in descendants and ancestors. We know for a well documented fact that religious beliefs changed.

I debated the historic Odin with a friend, and he pointed out one difficulty in having a physical Odin appear in today’s Sweden. In Uppsala (or anywhere) no archaeological traces bound to Odin worship have been found before the 4th C. He mentioned that some have proposed Odin was a deified Attila the Hun.

I take some comfort in Tacitus’ remark that Suabians worshipped Mercury (the Roman god or the Roman equivalent of Odin cannot be definitely known), this could mean the Yngling dynasty started among Suabians and then relocated to their relatives, Swedes in the 4th C.

But I find it extremely clear Odin was an immigrant, and changed the religious landscape. If he was himself from the Near East, the time when he lived means he could have built his own views on old Babylonian (Sumerian or Akkadian) as well as Egyptian texts. If he was from Gaul, like a Druid who played the role of Nodens as his tribe’s Teutatis (national deity), Gaulish Druidism could have had Ancient Near East influences from Canaaneans / Carthaginians.

“So, if the Iron Age Proto Germanic Jastorf had the Elder Futhark (they did)”

Reference please?

// The runes were in use among the Germanic peoples from the 1st or 2nd century AD. //

Runes - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runes

// The Jastorf culture was an Iron Age material culture in what is now northern Germany and the southern Scandinavian Peninsula,[1] spanning the 6th to 1st centuries BC, forming the southern part of the Pre-Roman Iron Age. The culture evolved out of the Nordic Bronze Age. //

Jastorf culture - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

“thus they had to have a base of the Germanic pantheon or culture”

Not if runes are an import.

// Specifically, the Rhaetic alphabet of Bolzano is often advanced as a candidate for the origin of the runes, with only five Elder Futhark runes (ᛖ e, ᛇ ï, ᛃ j, ᛜ ŋ, ᛈ p) having no counterpart in the Bolzano alphabet //

(wiki on Runes again).

Continued

under:
Continued Debate with "Germanic Syntax"
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2023/10/continued-debate-with-germanic-syntax.html

BD

UnderTheRunes9

14.X.2023

Hey George, My Y DNA comes from Mesolithic Scandinavia, and my Maternal is Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherer. I don't descend from the same Inbred Jewish family as you. Not at all. DNA proves this.

You're also a Mammal, Eukaryotic and Metabolic. Fairytales have little meaning, especially from a God who likens “bats” to “birds” (entirely different animals)

You literally believe in fairytales.

You think a family of 8 jews rounded up over 5,500,000 animals and another 4 million insects (all willing mind you) onto an Ark smaller than that of thr titanic then proceeded to take care of and feed (with no agriculture) of these animals and insects? How do you reckon?

Then, this family already with low genetic diversity and dozens of STDs (several animals carry STDS, Koalas being just one example) repopulated Earth and inbred for generations?

Well then why don't we all have the same Chromosomal DNA? We don't though… mine is associated with Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, 24k ybp. Why do we have different blood types?

Can you explain linguistic or phenotype diversity?

Why do Men have Nipples?

You believe Humanity is the result of two Inbreeding families. Sorry, it's not. Biology can easily prove this. You and I? Share zero Paternal or Maternal ancestry. You can run along with you're fairytales.

You're a mammal John, Nipples, Metabolism and all.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

15.X.2023

A few points.

“You think a family of 8 jews rounded up over 5,500,000 animals and another 4 million insects (all willing mind you) onto an Ark smaller than that of thr titanic then proceeded to take care of and feed (with no agriculture) of these animals and insects? How do you reckon?”

Logistics of the ark (with baraminology) I have dealt with over here:

Baraminological Note · For Sea-Farers .... · Rolling Period of Ark? · Ark : empty weight and freighted weight, number of couples on the Ark. · Small Tidbits on Ark, Especially Mathematical

Btw, Noah and his family were ancestral to Jews, but not yet Jews. They were also ancestral to Chinese, Yamnaya, Chad population, Kalahari population and Clovis culture.

“this family already with low genetic diversity”

Since they included not just the Homo sapiens race of pre-Flood men, but also at least traces of Denisovans and Neanderthals the genetic diversity between Noah, his wife, their three daughters in law, would have been pretty high for eight people.

“Well then why don't we all have the same Chromosomal DNA? We don't though… mine is associated with Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers, 24k ybp.”

“24 000 BP” = “22 000 BC” = sometime between 2890 and 2867 BC, according to this:

2890 B. Chr.
0.09274 pmC/100, so dated as 22 540 B. Chr.
2867 B. Chr.
0.119246 pmC/100, so dated as 20 467 B. Chr.*

= 67 — 90 years after the Flood.

As mine, I’m probably at least as much Scandinavian as Jewish in ancestry. You know, Jewish heritage of Christian confession did in Sweden marry with non-Jewish heritage of Christian confession.

**Source:
New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

Q II

Which ethnic group has the most patrilineal genetic decendence from the Yamnaya material culture?
https://www.quora.com/Which-ethnic-group-has-the-most-patrilineal-genetic-decendence-from-the-Yamnaya-material-culture/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Noa Vinter

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

12.X.2023

I suppose you mean from skeleta found around the material culture known as Yamnaya.

The answer is that Norwegians are just a bit above 50 % in Yamnaya heritage.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13.X.2023

According to Luis M. González, it was actually Finland (too?)

Q III

Who are the Yamnaya and what is their connection to the Proto-Indo-Europeans?
https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-Yamnaya-and-what-is-their-connection-to-the-Proto-Indo-Europeans/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

11.X.2023

Yamnaya culture is an archaeological culture.

They left no written record, so we do not know for certain what language they spoke.

For those who believe that Indo-European language families like Slavic or Germanic, like Italic or Hellenic go back to a single family, the Yamnaya culture is the one favoured by most scholars as identic to the speakers of this mother language. Two minorities, one with Alinei says Indo-European came from Ancient Near East Neolithic farmers, a migration reaching Europe earlier than migrations from Yamnaya culture origins, and Trubetskoy disbelieved the story of a single PIE altogether, preferring a Sprachbund scenario.

It is currently dated to 3300 – 2600 BC, which in my reduction becomes 1868 to 1678 BC. Too late to develop to Mycenaean Greek etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

11.X.2023

See also:
Sredny Stog culture - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture

“4500 - 3500 BC” = 2086 - 1935 BC.

New Tables is where I present the equation.

“The oldest Mycenaean writing dates to about 1400 BC.”

Linear B - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

4500 - 1400 = 3100 years, ample time for language development PIE to Mycenaean, but 2086 - 1400 = 686 years. Like from Anglo-Saxon to Shakespear … not quite as ample.

A fourth?

Here we go:

Do you think the Proto-Indo-European language is a single language?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-the-Proto-Indo-European-language-is-a-single-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

16.X.2023

No, I think there were source languages for most of the known so called branches, that were more proto, but none of these would be “Proto-Indo-European” … neither would one exist.

The standard scenario accepted by both the guys who hold to Yamnaya (and formerly Maykop too) and the guys who hold to Neolithic Farmers from Anatolia as source population, is, the further back you go in Greek, beyond Mycenaean too, the more Indo-European it becomes, until it’s just Proto-Indo-European as a single language.

Except the material which is not at all from Proto-Indo-European, like Mycenae or thalassa or Corinthos, which is attributed to Pre-Greek, a language succumbing to the Proto-Greek of the Indo-European speaking newcomers.

This is how French gets more and more like Latin until it’s a very off pronunciation of Latin in 790 AD, until it’s Latin introduced by Caesar in 48 BC, or by some other guys in the South even a century earlier. Except the Pre-Latin parts, like “bec” is from some Gaulish language and so is “fin” …

Trubetskoy would have said, and I would agree, if you get beyond Mycenaean Greek and back to Babel, it gets less close to other Indo-European languages the further you get back. In this scenario, Pre-Greek = Proto-Greek. And Pre-Germanic = Proto-Germanic. And so on.

This is how Bulgarian, Turkish, Greek, Romanian and Albanian have been getting closer to each other as we see them than when they started out neighbouring each other on the Balkans. Romanian, Albanian and Bulgarian share endings of determinate form, which are lacking from other Romance and other Slavic languages (we don’t find any non-Balkan relatives of Albanian to compare it with).

A fifth Q?

yes, here:

Do you know of any examples of people speaking a proto-language before Indo-Europeans spoke Proto-Indo-European (PIE)?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-know-of-any-examples-of-people-speaking-a-proto-language-before-Indo-Europeans-spoke-Proto-Indo-European-PIE/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

23.X.2023

If you add alleged for both examples, yes.

Proto-Afro-Asiatic is supposed to have already split into Akkadian and Old Egyptian and Canaanean / Hebrew and Ethiopian and Berber at a time when Proto-Indo-European was supposedly still a single language.

Also, PIE, Proto-Uralic, Proto-Turkic and a few more (including ancestors of Greenlandic and Aleutic) are supposed according to some to go back to an even older Proto-Nostratic.

In each example, the existence of the “proto” language is hypothetic, the adhesion to those hypotheses are greater for PIE and Proto-Afro-Asiatic, and perhaps a bit less for Proto-Nostratic (though not fringe).

The problematic thing is not that people in such and such a part of archaeology spoke a language as opposed to not speaking, the problematic things are the time scale and whether such and such a collection of languages which have common features have the common feeatures because they go back to a common but undocumented proto-language, or some other way.