Babel, Again ... and some more

Issah Mohammed Challenged Me on Chronology · Location of Babel · Babel, Again ... and some more

On the university qualification

that I use for more than one below:

none/ apprx Masters = I could have been Masters with two more exams I didn't take, if we count the exams in time value for the subjects

in Latin (language) & Greek (language) = language AND letters

Lund University = Lund University

Q I

If borders are biblical, is it because of Acts 17:26?
https://www.quora.com/If-borders-are-biblical-is-it-because-of-Acts-17-26/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Jul 27 [2022]

It is first of all because of Genesis 11.

God invented national differences, chief among them, the first directly imposed, being language, as a cure against a certain kind of bad world wide cooperation.

But obviously, St. Paul in this speech refers back to that.

Q II

Was the Tower of Babel really built?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-Tower-of-Babel-really-built/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Issah Mohammed

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Jul 28 [2022]

• As far as I can see, it does not say in the Bible. The city got started building and ended unfinished, but the tower, doesn’t say.
• If I am right about what it was, namely a rocket project, no, it didn’t, the tower of Babel was only built and launched c. 4500 years later (from Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur). God made sure it couldn’t get built and launched back then in order to make it possible to build and launch it much later, when there was a sufficient technical knowhow.

Q III

Does the Tower of Babel have anything to do with Babylon?
https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Tower-of-Babel-have-anything-to-do-with-Babylon/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Donald Turner

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Jul 29 [2022]

There are more than one views on this one, and I’ll give you mine.

The city of Babel and the project to eventually make a tower “the top of which shall reach into heaven” are something which happens between 350 and 401 after the Flood in a certain LXX timeline (without the second Cainan) that I use, since it is in the Roman martyrology.

It is geographically speaking set West of something (Genesis 11:2) and if that something is the landingplace, then Classic Babylon is not the geographic location of Nimrod’s Babel. I think Göbekli Tepe is so.

And this would mean that the two years 2607 and 2556 BC carbon date as 9600 and 8600 BC. This being the charcoal dates for lowest and highest charcoal layers in Göbekli Tepe.

Babylon is associated with archaeological dates (probably indirectly carbon based) in the range of 2300 or 1800 sth BC. If carbon dates are in this range, this would mean during the Israelite stay in Egypt. It was founded by Amorrhites, which in Abraham’s time (carbon dated to 3500 BC) had been forced to leave Asason-Tamar, later known as En-Geddi, in a Mesopotamian incursion. This means, the Amorrhite invasion into Mesopotamia and then founding (or vast enlarging) of Babylon could have been a retaliation for the Genesis 14 invasion into Palestine.

Now, the name very arguably was chosen in memory of Babel, and it is noteworthy that both places are on Euphrates and that the geographic coordinates form so to speak a diagonal between the places. It is possible some source had placed Babel (correctly) so and so far NW of a certain place and instead they went SE. And thought (incorrectly) they had hit the same spot.

Q IV

Did Nebuchadnezzar rebuild the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Nebuchadnezzar-rebuild-the-Tower-of-Babel/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Lewis Button

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Jul 31 [2022]

Perhaps he thought he did.

But neither the place, nor the type of artefact concerned was the right one, if I am right.

Q V

Who was the king when the Tower of Babel was being built?
https://www.quora.com/Who-was-the-king-when-the-Tower-of-Babel-was-being-built/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Lewis Button

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Jul 31 [2022]

Nimrod was more like “project leader” than king when the City of Babel was being built and the tower was being projected.

The Bible never calls him “king” and he is in fact applying more like a democratic or oligarchic decision than taking one himself.

Q VI

Is it possible that the rapid burial process from Noah’s flood actually preserved the soft tissue or many species that existed before?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-rapid-burial-process-from-Noah-s-flood-actually-preserved-the-soft-tissue-or-many-species-that-existed-before/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur reader of it [of science]

Aug 3 [2022]

It is not totally improbable.

It has not been tested on most samples.

Q VII

Was Abraham possibly the last of the early biblical patriarchs who physically knew surviving members of Noah’s family who endured the worldwide flood?
https://www.quora.com/Was-Abraham-possibly-the-last-of-the-early-biblical-patriarchs-who-physically-knew-surviving-members-of-Noah-s-family-who-endured-the-worldwide-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 8 [2022]

Abraham knew his greatgrandfather Sarug physically for 50 years, and up to him the tradition had been preserved. He didn’t know Noah or Shem physically.

Q VIII

How did Abraham know Noah?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Abraham-know-Noah/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 10 [2022]

Through tradition.

Noah died 350 after the Flood and Abraham was born 942 after the Flood.

Given that his own father (Thare) and probably also grandfather (but his brother was also named Nachor) were idolaters, he received the tradition the first 50 years of his own life. While the great-grand-father Sarug was still alive.

Q IX

Is it possible to invent a new language for fun?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-invent-a-new-language-for-fun/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 11 [2022]

No.

Mankind only has a limited number of languages over all the people alive and the languages of New Guinea are so numerous that you cannot invent a new one …

“Hello? What’s that?”

Sorry, a language just died out on New Guinea, so, I guess you can now …

Ha, my fun.

Answer is simple : of course you can.

Given that the human language capacity is capable of acquiring an infinite diversity of different languages (though one man can hardly acquire more than 50 of them in this life, perhaps 100 if he’s very good) and that the actual languages available are only a finite number (7000 or so), you can invent languages.

And you can invent languages for very different purposes:

• communication with men (like Volapük, Esperanto, Ido, a Panslavic language)
• communication with angels or more probably demons (Henochian)
• communication between different characters of an art work (Quenya / Sindarin, Klingon, Na’avi, Syldavian)
• communications between different participants in a play (which may be entirely about language - Nevbosh, what Tolkien started with before he became the great language artist behind Quenya and Sindarin).

Q X

Is it possible that the ancient civilization of Babylon would have kept the Tower of Babel up as a means of worship for sometime after God dispersed humanity all over the Earth?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-ancient-civilization-of-Babylon-would-have-kept-the-Tower-of-Babel-up-as-a-means-of-worship-for-sometime-after-God-dispersed-humanity-all-over-the-Earth/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 14 [2022]

• I don’t think the Tower of Babel was a means of worship;
• The civilisation of Babylon is very distinct from the one of Nimrod’s Babel;
• I don’t think the tower was completed until Kennedy and Chrushchev did it, when only the top of what looked very towerlike at takeoff came into “heaven” or into space above the atmosphere;
• And whatever remnants of the project different civilisations may have had in top secret, the actual site of Babel - Göbekli Tepe - was covered with sand by the last to leave.

Q XI

Do we have the means to recreate the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Do-we-have-the-means-to-recreate-the-Tower-of-Babel/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 15 [2022], Our Lady's Assumption

God interrupted the first creation before takeoff.

We already probably did recreate the Tower of Babel after World War II and sent it to the Moon in 1969 …

Check the text once again:

and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven:

A rocket like Apollo 11 looks like a tower at take off, but the three steps are thrown down, and only the top, the capsule, actually reaches, for instance, the Moon - or a trajectory away from the “Solar System” …

I am not saying Nimrod had the technological means to send up a rocket. Da Vinci didn’t have the technological means to send up an airplane - he just had the idea of one. In da Vinci’s case, his patron arguably stopped a test that would have killed the pilot, but as Nimrod was one world dictator, only God could do so, and he was so both popular and feared that the only way to stop him was to make his underlings incapable of understanding his orders. He changed their linguistic competence, by Omnipotence, even an angel or a demon could not have done so, permanently.

Q XII

Are the Gōbekli Tepe Enclosures giant lunisolar calendars?
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-G%C5%8Dbekli-Tepe-Enclosures-giant-lunisolar-calendars-2/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Nikolaos Vafeidis

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 15 [2022], Our Lady's Assumption

That is possible, but my theory is, as Graham Hancock suggested, they were meant for rocket takeoffs.

And God put the rocket project on a halt for some more than 4500 years, to Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur …

Probably, if I am not wrong, the function that looks like calendars would have been meant for correctly directing the rockets.

Q XIII

Is it possible that Noah's "ark" was a large barn constructed on the highlands of the Ararat mountains? That it was not a boat?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-Noahs-ark-was-a-large-barn-constructed-on-the-highlands-of-the-Ararat-mountains-That-it-was-not-a-boat/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Aug 18 [2022]

Not if the Ararat mountains rose during the Flood.

Note

Q XV and Q XVI are two other answers first one to same question, then one to related, that I have debated.

Q XIV

Where was the world's first empire established?
https://www.quora.com/Where-was-the-worlds-first-empire-established/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

9 months ago

In Assyria, in the area of Göbekli Tepe and Qermez Dere (Babel and Niniveh), during the Neolithic.

Marc Robidoux

Aug 3 [2022]

You seem to be answering this question as someone who actually knows what he’s talking about. I guess this is the sane alter-ego of Hans-Georg answering, as I can comment (i.e. not blocked). Way to answer succinctly and without imbibing the answer with your geo-centric-religious bullshit.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Aug 13 [2022]

And my source is Genesis 10 and Genesis 11 … no alter egos without “religious BS” here …

Marc Robidoux

Aug 13 [2022]

Very interesting, you are the only split personality I know of here on Quora. This one, where I’m not blocked, posts exclusively sane sounding content consisting of your opinions and knowledge sharing based on your obvious deep schooling in some fields. The other one, for which I am blocked from commenting, is over there spouting absolute BS about geocentric creationism or some such nuttery. It is rather a striking contrast.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Aug 14 [2022]

No contrast at all.

It is creationism to say Nimrod made the first Empire, and that’s exactly what I did.

And it is my brand of Creation Science to define Nimrod’s Babel as Göbekli Tepe.

So, Qermez Dere is the version of Nineveh that’s roughly contemporary or slightly younger than Göbekli Tepe.

Q XV

Is it possible that Noah's "ark" was a large barn constructed on the highlands of the Ararat mountains? That it was not a boat?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-Noahs-ark-was-a-large-barn-constructed-on-the-highlands-of-the-Ararat-mountains-That-it-was-not-a-boat/answer/M-Whelan-3

M Whelan

Studied Engineering (college major) (Graduated 1978)

Wed 17.VIII.2022

It is more possible. Any shipwright would tell you would tell you that the boat described in the bible would never be able to hold itself together under any circumstances.

But a fairy story is still a fairy story.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

18.VIII.2022

Would you mind telling me where the Bible describes a “boat”?

In Acts 27 you find a description of a boat voyage, but I don’t think there is one of the boat they used …

And what does any description of a boat have to do with Noah’s Ark, when it wasn’t one? It was a floating box!

M Whelan

18.VIII.2022

(Genesis 6:14–16): the ark is to be 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high (approximately 134×22×13 m or 440×72×43 ft).

Now don’t know about you but it certainly is not a hanging basket they are describing it is a ship.. a boat.. a vessel and we all know the absurd story. And made of gopher wood. Or are you saying that the story is now totally false and that Christians wish to distance themselves from that story now?

It still would not survive any “voyage” Any shipwright can tell you that and so can any 2nd year engineer.

It is like the bible all made up.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

18.VIII.2022

A boat would have some mean of propulsion, none is described for the Ark.

A boat would have a keel, the Ark had a flat floor.

It’s a very giant box, but it’s meant to function like a floating box, not like a navigating boat.

That changes some points on structural buildup and on structural strains.

The shipwrights are thinking of thin elastic woods around keels that are meant to facilitate navigation - which means sooner or later the boat would go through two waves front and back and a trough in the middle, meaning a structural strain the Ark was never exposed to.

M Whelan

19.VIII.2022

Laughing very loudly here, you make my point even more thank you. everyone knows it was a ship or boat even the original Hebrew. I love now some are trying to get away from what is described. But it would not float and if the waters were so high it needed to float then it would sink, and if the waters were not so high then what is with the threat of killing every living thing. If it floats it would drift and it would be swamped by waves ( You know science y things)

The bible is a collection of bronze age stories that in today's climate and level of education are obviously of the time and know nothing of today's science. Just PURE BS.

I find it interesting you are trying to re write it, cos you know the whole story is BS. but ya cant.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

19.VIII.2022

“everyone knows it was a ship or boat even the original Hebrew.”

Sorry, but I just looked up the Hebrew English interlinear. They link to lexicon entries over each word.

Genesis 6:14 Ark = Strong 8392. tebah, here tebat, since next word starts with a vowel. Strong translates as “a box, chest”

Jonas 1:3 Ship = ’ā·nî·yāh = Strong 591. אֳנִיָּה (oniyyah).

“I love now some are trying to get away from what is described.”

Where does the passage describe any keel, rudder or means of propulsion?

“But it would not float”

It would have a waterline at 15 cubits (halfway up) high and be able to take at least 13,257.381 metric tons (beasts and men, food and tools) apart from the empty weight.

“If it floats it would drift and it would be swamped by waves”

On the high ocean (and when everything was covered with water, all earth was high ocean) waves are fairly longstretched dunes (you know science and such things). This means, the Ark could lie comfortably in a trough between two wave tops even if they were higher up above the trough than the 15 cubits the Ark had above the water line.

“The bible is a collection of bronze age stories”

Roughly speaking up to King David … when it comes to the time between Adam and Tubal-Cain and between Flood and Chalcolithic, Stone Age, and after King David, Iron Age.

The best way to know events from the Bronze Age is to get stories from precisely the Bronze Age.

But Noah’s civilisation was a pre-Flood Bronze-and-Iron age, ending 2957 BC which carbon dates to 40 000 BP. And hasn’t been found.

“that in today's climate and level of education are obviously of the time and know nothing of today's science”

If you mean they ignore stupid arguments that have been recently made, at least on the surface you are right. But there is an eery knack of taking in details that actually even now help to sort the stupid arguments out a bit.

“I find it interesting you are trying to re write it”

I find it interesting you take exact observations from the text as rewriting.

M Whelan

19.VIII.2022

Ok ok i get it, you are right and the pope, the clergy the millionaire creationist evangelists, the priests and all the academics are totally wrong.

Please forgive this lowly human atheist.. why i am even talking about a fairy story is beyond me… it is all made up no matter boat or barn It is fiction.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

19.VIII.2022

You said about me, I think the following "are totally wrong."

"the pope," - Actually, Pope Michael who died in this month, the second day, wasn’t.

"the clergy" - He has not very many clergy faithful to him, so far.

"the millionaire creationist evangelists," - Apart from leaders of fairly big projects, like the Ark encounter, why would they be millionaires? Aren’t you confusing them with Megachurch pastors? If so, this post is for you:

Just in Case ANYONE Confuses Young Earth Creationism with Megachurches

And far from disagreeing with them, they would say the Ark was a kind of box (though of course of ship like proportions), here:

The coins were all minted in the Roman city of Apameia Kibotos (or Cibotus in its Latinized spelling) in Asia Minor. It was originally a Phrygian city established by Antiochus I (280–261 BC), and is now the modern-day town of Dinar in Turkey. The original Phrygian city was named Apameia, and sometime before the turn of the 1st millennium BC appears to have had a nickname, Kibōtos, added to it.2 This word, meaning chest or box, is thought to be a reference to its coffers, as it had become a very wealthy city as it rose to prominence. The word kibōtos (κιβωτός) is also the Greek word used to describe Noah’s Ark in the New Testament and the Septuagint.3

Noah’s Ark on a Roman coin!
by Phil Robinson | This article is from
Creation 40(3):28–31, July 2018
https://creation.com/roman-coin-ark

"the priests and all the academics" - there are both priests and academics on both sides.

So, what was your point again? That I’m against everyone? No, I am not. Or have everyone against me? No, I have not.

Q XVI

In the Bible story of Noah’s flood, why did no boats, other than his Ark, float?
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Bible-story-of-Noah-s-flood-why-did-no-boats-other-than-his-Ark-float/answer/Bob-Myers-5

Bob Myers

Long-time and very devout Pastafarian

1 year ago

That’s one of those little problems with the whole story that you’re not supposed to notice. Or for that matter, given that it did take some time for the supposed “forty days and forty nights” of rain to cause flooding, why no one else got the idea at that point and put together SOME sort of floating refuge.

It’s a myth. Don’t expect to be able to look to closely at it without seeing some rather glaring problems.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Apr 11 [2022]

• 1. Boats would have tried to navigate against the waves and therefore get broken up, crushed. The Ark had neither sail nor oars and had less tensions to deal with.
• 2. A boat (being smaller, see next) would have been built for navigation on normal conditions and not have had wood half a cubit to a cubit thick (while NIV translates “gopher wood” as “wood planks” LXX has “hule koubite” which translates basically as “cubit wood”).
• 3. A boat could perhaps have floated, but hardly had provisions for a year, the people on board it would still have been dead before the Flood was over. Ergo, Noah’s family would still be the 8 sole human survivors.

Bob Myers

17.VIII.2022

So you believe that Noah and his family built a seaworthy wooden vessel sufficiently large to carry all of the animals AND provisions for a full year? if there’s one thing that Ken Ham’s absurd “Ark Encounter” in Kentucky more than adequately demonstrated, it’s that such a thing is essentially impossible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

18.VIII.2022

I am not sure what you call a “vessel” here, it was a wooden box.

With thick walls.

I took 18 inches as the smallest form of cubit and even with such a cubit, the measures of volume and weight of of water displaced at water line halfway up allow for bringing all kinds on board - with an average of 17 modern species per kind. PLUS provision, and this one counted as “grass for sheep” ratio of provision to animal provided for.

Details? Here:
Ark : empty weight and freighted weight, number of couples on the Ark.
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2021/10/ark-empty-weight-and-freighted-weight.html

Bob Myers

18.VIII.2022

The Ark story remains pure mythology, nothing more. There are so many problems and inconsistencies within that it would be impossible to even list them all here. Just for one obvious example: how did both freshwater and saltwater aquatic species manage to survive?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

18.VIII.2022

Seas were freshwater back then, and saltwater species changed into that in the 5000 years since then (aquarium experiments have proven 7 years adequate within same individual, but not for all fish …)

Bob Myers

18/19.VIII.2022

It continues to be very entertaining: the extremes to which young-Earth creationists will go to in their attempts to shore up their absurdities. First they deny the evolutionary model in large part because they don’t think there’s been enough time for evolution to happen as described, and then to defend the whole “Noah’s Flood” myth propose that species evolve and disperse across the surface of the planet at a rate orders of magnitude beyond anything required in the standard evolutionary model. Far from the only example, of course, but certainly one of the more painfully obvious ones.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

19.VIII.2022

You know, between 17 species of hedgehog there is lots less difference than between … dogs, cats, monkeys, fish, etc.

As the only thing needed for speciation is a barrier of reproduction, and when you couple that with founder effect, the 5000 years since the Flood are adequate.

Q XVII

How could Goliath the ancient giant have been a Nephilim when they were all destroyed in Noah’s flood?
https://www.quora.com/How-could-Goliath-the-ancient-giant-have-been-a-Nephilim-when-they-were-all-destroyed-in-Noah-s-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

20.VIII.2022

I don’t think it says he was a Nephelim or one of these (Nephelim is plural).

His stature is mentioned, but I don’t think that word is used.

Q XVIII

Did Adam and Eve possibly begin to build Atlantis? Would it have been a more primitive society until the time of the Nephilim?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Adam-and-Eve-possibly-begin-to-build-Atlantis-Would-it-have-been-a-more-primitive-society-until-the-time-of-the-Nephilim/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

24.VIII.2022 or

Day of St. Bartholomew

I would rather consider that Atlantis simply was land between what is now Old World and what is now Americas, and after the Flood became an island through the breakup of lands in the Flood and then sank and left a very much bigger sea around the time of Babel, perhaps at Younger Dryas, just before Babel, but people and beasts had already crossed it and peopled the Americas.

Have you seen the documentary on the Clovis culture crossing the Atlantic during the ice age, from France to North America?

It has cultural kinship to cultures in France and the Atlantic is another option - as the Spanish theologicans were saying when explaining how the Indios came there after Noah had landed in the Old world with his family as the sole survivors.

Q XIX

Were the waters which came up from the deep part of the Earth during Noah’s flood water that had never previously been on the surface?
https://www.quora.com/Were-the-waters-which-came-up-from-the-deep-part-of-the-Earth-during-Noah-s-flood-water-that-had-never-previously-been-on-the-surface/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur reader of it [science]

24.VIII.2022 or

Day of St. Bartholomew

I would say so, and that now it is in the Oceans (or part may have sunk back into the mantle) - so that the means for the Flood that God used were already destroyed by the Flood itself, God had so to speak already made sure He “couldn’t” break the rainbow promise - like a father who breaks a rod before promising he will never use it any more on his children.

Q XX

Did the earth stop spinning for one day like in the Bible?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-earth-stop-spinning-for-one-day-like-in-the-Bible/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur reader of it [science]

24.VIII.2022 or

Day of St. Bartholomew

If it is usually the Universe that spins around Earth, no, the Earth was not spinning in the first place.

Q XXI

Did the Anunnaki possibly possess a very long lifespan over thousands of years?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Anunnaki-possibly-possess-a-very-long-lifespan-over-thousands-of-years/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

25.VIII.2022

Day of St. Lewis IX of France

As far as I know, longevity without immortality in kinds with reason and will is about man.

Now, man at creation either was immortal or had an option to become so. But when Adam sinned, he was going to die “the same day” (Genesis 2:17) and here we have a very appropriate use of …

But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[2 Peter 3:8]

Dying at 930 and the one who lived longest at 969 is within 1000 years.

If Annunaki do not descend from Adam, longevity doesn’t apply, fable or demonic immortality does. But if they did descend from him and from Noah, while they could have longer lifespans than we have now, they could not go beyond 1000 years.

Seven hills are seven kings ...

Q

Do the Seven Hills of Revelations refer to Rome? Would this point to the revived Roman Empire?
https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Seven-Hills-of-Revelations-refer-to-Rome-Would-this-point-to-the-revived-Roman-Empire/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered Wed

The question has two parts:

Do the Seven Hills of Revelations refer to Rome?

Arguably, yes.

Would this point to the revived Roman Empire?

The seven hills are there irrespectively of what constitution or wideness of direct and official political power Rome has.

In my view of end times, a revived Roman Empire could very well be an interruption in the progress of Antichrist’s power.

Also, the fourth beast was the Imperium of a Senatorial Republic, whether you consider it arriving in the Holy Land already as Antiochus IV Epiphanes (who was a vassal to the Senate!) or only in Pompey (who was later going to defend the Senatorial Republic against Caesar’s populistic monarchy revival).

During the fourth beast, Rome was ruled by double monarchs elected for one year, called consuls, and [in the same period] one Sextus Calvinus founed Aix-en-Provence, recalling modern Republics and recalling John Calvin. As well as a condominium between a pretended “Pope Emeritus” and a pretended “Pope” neither of whom are Catholics.

Twelve Questions on Genesis I to XI

John Hunt Thinks Nimrod is a Myth, dito for Babel · Three QQ from Issah Mohammed, on Babel · Twelve Questions on Genesis I to XI

Q I

What is the first thing a Catholic should do before talking with a fundamentalist?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-first-thing-a-Catholic-should-do-before-talking-with-a-fundamentalist/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 6h ago

Be wary if some people around might mind him talking to himself.

I’m a Catholic and I’m a fundamentalist.

Q II

Is it acceptable to interpret Adam as an allegory, not a historical person?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-acceptable-to-interpret-Adam-as-an-allegory-not-a-historical-person-1/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 13h ago

No, it is not, the Session V of the Council of Trent clearly links Original Sin to Adam as one individual and first man.

If he hadn’t been an actual individual, he could not have committed one actual sin on which a loss of grace and perfection immediately followed, and if he hadn’t been the first man, head of mankind, it is not understandable why his sin should affect all men after him.

Q III

Did Adam and Eve have children between Abel and Seth?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Adam-and-Eve-have-children-between-Abel-and-Seth/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 8h ago

Arguably yes, the words “And the days of Adam, after he begot Seth, were eight hundred years: and he begot sons and daughters,” certainly mean Seth was not last, but do not necessarily indicate he was only the third child of Adam and Eve.

Q IV

What's up with the ridiculously high ages in the Bible?
https://www.quora.com/Whats-up-with-the-ridiculously-high-ages-in-the-Bible/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Apr 5

That we have ridiculously low ages now, compared to our ancestors, first ten generations (all from Adam to Noah being ancestral to all after the Flood, except Noah’s wife and daughters in law, and that’s ten generations).

Imagine mankind were reduced to a subset with diabetes type 1 and we lived in a world with no artificial insuline. Yes, men would live much shorter than now.

This is basically what happened the first thousand years after the Flood.

Carl Wieland on CMI also came up with “genes over pre-Flood environment” before I did, and obviously, when I made my tables on rising C14 levels, the common causality of more radiation from the cosmos than before and than now would have achieved three things:

• human genes and in general genes deteriorate = lower life spans
• carbon 14 is produced quicker than now, explaining why it rose quickly (1.4 pmC at Flood in 2957 BC to 100 pmC achieved at Fall of Troy in 1180 BC, with first half having the quicker rise)
• ionising particles would also have helped to cool the weather for the post-Flood ice age.

Q V

Would Noah’s ark have been as sea worthy as the steel ships of today because of the SAP turned into tar that covered from inside to outside?
https://www.quora.com/Would-Noah-s-ark-have-been-as-sea-worthy-as-the-steel-ships-of-today-because-of-the-SAP-turned-into-tar-that-covered-from-inside-to-outside/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 29m ago

Yes and no.

In proportion to circumstances yes - and by that I mean, the Ark was not navigating anywhere. Hence the only one of the movements imposed by the waters on the ship would be “the rolling,” as the Ark would have its length parallel to the wave troughs.

The steel ships can certainly navigate, but on the other hand would not be able to survive the kind of waves you get in a world wide Flood.

Q VI

Is it possible that there were not nearly as many species on the Earth before Noah’s flood than after because of the increased size?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-there-were-not-nearly-as-many-species-on-the-Earth-before-Noah-s-flood-than-after-because-of-the-increased-size/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur reader of it

Answered Fri

There were not as many species before than after because the species diversified after the Flood.

There was one hedgehog couple on the Ark, there are 17 hedgehog species today.

Q VII

Do Young Earth Creationists really believe that God created the world 6,000 to 10,000 years ago, and how did they arrive at that number?
https://www.quora.com/Do-Young-Earth-Creationists-really-believe-that-God-created-the-world-6-000-to-10-000-years-ago-and-how-did-they-arrive-at-that-number/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 7h ago

"Do Young Earth Creationists really believe that God created the world 6,000 to 10,000 years ago,"

Yes, we do.

"and how did they arrive at that number?"

Adam was the first man, created within 168 hours from the creation of the universe (Genesis 1). Counting together the ages of fathers at birth of sons, in Genesis 5 and 11, from Adam to Abraham via Noah, noting Abraham was 75 when he had a promise about Exodus happening 430 years after the promise (see Galatians 3:17), and the Exodus happening "480 years" before the Temple of Solomon, which was around 1000 BC. There are text variants for 480 and there are explanations according to which it would cover only part of the actual years (like not counting bad years).

c. 1000 + 480 + 430 + 75 + A + B = C
A is Abraham born 292 or 942 or 1070 after the Flood, depending on text version.
B is Flood coming 2242 or 1658 after Creation, also depending on text version.
C is the BC date of Creation.

Let's put in 1070 for A and 2242 for B
c. 1000 + 480 + 430 + 75 + 1070 + 2242 = c. 5297 BC

Let's put in 292 for A and 1658 for B
c. 1000 + 480 + 430 + 75 + 292 + 1658 = c. 3935 BC

Add 2022 after Christ:
2022 + 5297 = 7319
2022 + 3935 = 5957

So, about 6000 to 7500 years ago.

Michael Somerset

8.XI.2022

Can you provide any testable and verifiable evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt to support the claims made by creationism?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

8.XI.2022

History is not court justice.

But yes, I consider historic evidence of genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11, along with evidence for Flood mentioned after Genesis 5 and for Babel mentioned in first part of Genesis 11 as fairly good historic evidence, and all doubts I have so far seen on it as unreasonable doubts. Care to take up one of yours, and see what I make of it and if I already dealt with it?

So, beyond any reasonable doubt I would have come across, to say the least.

Michael Somerset

8.XI.2022

Care to take up one of yours, and see what I make of it and if I already dealt with it?

You are the one who has made public claims. It is up to you to provide the evidence to support those claims.

You noted some Bible passages as well as the genealogies. Can you show how they all are testable and verifiable.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

9.XI.2022

The test for a text from older times being historic rather than fictional is, the earliest known audience takes it as historic rather than fictional.

1st C. AD and late BC commentators on Genesis obviously took it as historic, do you have any earlier commentators who can be nailed down as taking it as fictional?

The verifications involve seeing if other historic accounts about same or potentially same events are more or less credible, more or less scrupulous in recording, for instance and if there are any obvious points at which frauds or misunderstandings would have been very likely to induce the tradition even if it was not their true historic memory from before.

Do you have alternative accounts that involve the same events and that you find more credible? Why so?

Do you see an obvious point at which a story told for fun could have been misunderstood as history or at which someone had the opportunity to fake knowledge of earlier events? When and who?

That is precisely the kinds of tests and verifications that history gets.

Michael Somerset

9.XI.2022

So, in other words, these Bible passages do not have any testable and verifiable evidence to back them up. I thought that would be the case.

Just because something is written in an ancient text it does not mean that it has to be taken as literal truth. The arguments you have provided can also apply to other ancient religious texts such as the Sumerian tablets or the Egyptian texts or the Indian Rigveda. That is why testable and verifiable evidence is needed to support your claims that the Biblical texts are true. Credibility is based on this evidence, not on your say so.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

10.XI.2022

"in other words, these Bible passages do not have any testable and verifiable evidence to back them up."

In other words, you don't know what testable and verifiable evidence means in connection with history.

"Just because something is written in an ancient text it does not mean that it has to be taken as literal truth"

History is not always literal truth. It is sometimes literal fraud.

"The arguments you have provided can also apply to other ancient religious texts such as the Sumerian tablets or the Egyptian texts or the Indian Rigveda."

For Sumerian texts, you have a point. Hence I mentioned that the relative value of two different sources should be compared. Sumerian Ark is not seaworthy for a world wide ocean, the Biblical is.

Religious texts of a certain other type, like Book of the Dead or Rigveda do not even claim to be historic, that is about past events witnessed by men. That is off topic.

For India, you would have done better to cite Mahabharata and Ramayana, and yes, I believe them to be mainly historic, with certain reversals of chronology and distortions of theology to the minus.

"That is why testable and verifiable evidence is needed to support your claims that the Biblical texts are true."

It is true that in my main answer I mentioned believing the Bible is not just historic (for this book), but even true (for this and all books).

But after you commented, I actually was providing what you are asking for.

"Credibility is based on this evidence, not on your say so."

Historic credibility is based on some old and dead guys say so.

Michael Somerset

10.XI.2022

History relies on multiple primary and secondary sources including some old and dead guys. Note I said multiple sources, not just one.

You are relying on just one source, the Bible. And no one has yet provided any testable and verifiable evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt that support the supernatural claims made in the Bible.

So, I still don’t see any testable and verifiable evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt from you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

11.XI.2022

St. Martin of Tours

"Note I said multiple sources, not just one."

For there being a Flood, there actually are multiple sources. By the way, the main thing is primary sources, and that means contemporary ones, while secondary sources are a standin.

That said, it doesn't make sense to pretend "one source has zero credibility, ten sources have total credibility" since 10/10 doesn't equal 0.

For most of what we know of ancient history, we do not have multiple and especially not multiple independent contemporary sources.

"And no one has yet provided any testable and verifiable evidence that is beyond reasonable doubt that support the supernatural claims made in the Bible."

Leaving aside the prophetic and doctrinal claims, since Apocalypse and Ephesians, Ezechiel and Wisdom aren't exactly historic books, by "supernatural claims" I suppose you mean miraculous events. If you didn't, if you confused the two questions of historic reliability with theological reliability, too bad, and I'll ignore that for the following, since we are here talking of history.

Testable and verifiable evidence is texts. "No one has yet provided" is your prejudice. Reasonable doubt is what I challenged you to provide. And you haven't.

There are two kinds of doubts that are not reasonable against Biblical history:

• miracles don't happen
• past events are proven by multiple independent contemporary text sources plus archaeology.

The latter is a near good position for events 1800 AD, but atrocious for events 1800 BC. Not all events leave physical traces, not all physical traces are preserved. A leper healed by Christ will not have traces of having had leprosy, otherwise the priest could not have pronounced him clean, and his flesh will be rotted in the grave a long time ago, by now.

The former is putting the cart before the horse. It's the miracle that is to prove the theology not the theology that is to prove the miracle. And pretending a historic text containing miracles is as moot as a doctrinal text containing doctrine is missing the point. Most false doctrines didn't come about through miracles.

What would constitute a reasonable doubt? Two options: prove the dating methods used by evolutionists allow no reasonable doubt or that their reasonable doubt doesn't extend to the position of Biblical chronology, or prove some other text tradition involves better genealogies and more credible descriptions of the Flood. So far you haven't even tried either.

So, I haven't seen any reasonable doubt, I have provided my evidence, you have not provided reasonable doubt. Just saying “it isn’t beyond reasonable doubt” doesn’t make that so.

Q VIII

How many years are there between Noah and Moses?
https://www.quora.com/How-many-years-are-there-between-Noah-and-Moses/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 6h ago

From Flood to birth of Abraham, 292, 942 or 1070 years.

From birth to vocation of Abraham, 75 years.

From vocation of Abraham to Exodus 430 years. 75 + 430 = 505.

292 + 505 = 797
942 + 505 = 1447
1070 + 505 = 1575

If you meant from birth to birth instead of from Flood to Exodus, add 600 and subtract 80 = add 520.

797 + 520 = 1317
1447 + 520 = 1967
1575 + 520 = 2095

Q IX

Was it a Mesopotamian disaster or a world catastrophe? The flood continues to fuel speculation worldwide.
https://www.quora.com/Was-it-a-Mesopotamian-disaster-or-a-world-catastrophe-The-flood-continues-to-fuel-speculation-worldwide/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered 6h ago

If it was a Mesopotamian disaster:

• how come it is recalled (with some variation) in the Andes?
• how come a vessel taking off at 28 m above sea level landed 800 m above sea level?
• how come the Mesopotamian vessel would not have been able to float even through a “Mesopotamian” flood on previously mentioned condition?

In other words, as the Bible says, it was a world wide catastrophe.

Q X

If the ice age occurred as a result of Noah’s flood, could that possibly be how fantastic formations like the Grand Canyon occurred?
https://www.quora.com/If-the-ice-age-occurred-as-a-result-of-Noah-s-flood-could-that-possibly-be-how-fantastic-formations-like-the-Grand-Canyon-occurred/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur reader of it

Answered Mar 31

When the creation science groups like CMI or AiG have an answer on a thing, I usually don’t put that into question, unless I already arrived at a different one (Neanderthals as a human race were - me : pre-Flood, they : post-Flood).

Now, I’d consider the Ice age began after Noah’s Flood, I’d add that higher levels of cosmic radiation speeded up the process.

But as to Grand Canyon, I simply leave the answer to those guys, and theirs is, the excavation of that canyon was during the Flood, after the Flood had already piled lots of sediments on top of each other. A stream of water came to carve out a canyon in the sediments that were still soft.

Here is one article on CMI:

A receding Flood scenario for the origin of the Grand Canyon
by Peter Scheele | This article is from
Journal of Creation 24(3):106–116, December 2010
https://creation.com/grand-canyon-origin-flood

Q XI

Where and how did Noah build the Ark?
https://www.quora.com/Where-and-how-did-Noah-build-the-Ark/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Dec 10, 2019

Where?

Where he was getting into it and that would have been on top of the highest mountain known to the pre-Flood world, since 14 and a half to 15 cubits could then have been his waterline, and he could have known it covered it and all equally high mountain tops by 15 cubits when the Ark started floating. I presume he knew all of the pre-Flood geography very well, and therefore that he was chosing the highest mountain.

How?

• 1. According to God’s instructions;
• 2. Using the best technology the pre-Flood world had to offer him (not Neanderthal hunting spears from same time, like Versailles wasn’t built by the tomahawks of Chingachgook);
• 3. Certainly with the help of his three sons, possibly with help of other hired labour or volunteers who were stopped from coming along, probably also involving a hand or two from Methusalem, unless he was too old to do much - not sure how the age just before death affected pre-Flood labour capacity.

Q XII

Is the Tower of Babel the originator of languages?
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-Tower-of-Babel-the-originator-of-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Answered 17h ago

First, the tower itself is not originator of languages, the language differences came when God wanted to prevent the tower from being built then and there.

Second, human language existed well before, but very important language barriers didn’t, so, God working at Babel is the originator of language differences.

More Questions on Genesis, Early Chapters, on Quora

Collected on March 24, 2022.

Q I

Where in the Bible does it talk about the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Where-in-the-Bible-does-it-talk-about-the-Tower-of-Babel/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Tania Klavdienko

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

It does so in Genesis, chapter elevent, first nine verses.

Some indications there give another coordinate adress than Classical Babylon, notably “and they removed from the east” (the correct translations have “from” here). Göbekli Tepe is West of Mountains of Armenia and Babylon is South, even some smallish bent Eastward, from most candidates for the landing place.

Nagorno Karabakh would be an exception.

Q II

Is it possible that the Tower of Babel could have existed in ancient Babylonian history but under a different name and history?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-Tower-of-Babel-could-have-existed-in-ancient-Babylonian-history-but-under-a-different-name-and-history/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Mar 16

It doesn’t as far as I know.

If you thought of “the Lord of Aratta” - it includes a complaint of lost linguistic or liturgic or both unity, but only to ask a healing thereof, not including any account of how the division came to be.

It would be very probable that the episode was painful to people who held Nimrod in higher regard, and that therefore they tried to actively forget it.

Q III

Did Noah possibly build the ark in the land which would eventually become Babylon post flood?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Noah-possibly-build-the-ark-in-the-land-which-would-eventually-become-Babylon-post-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered Mar 16

Let’s get two things straight:

• early post-Flood Babel is not Classic Babylon, though probably named in reference to it, the Babel of Genesis 11 first verses is arguably at Göbekli Tepe;
• both Göbekli Tepe and Classic Babylon are in the land between the two rivers (Euphrates and Tigris, riverbeds probably parts of pre-Flood riverbeds but other language Frat and Hiddekel) and so in a valley.

By contrast, Noah would have known what the waterline of the Ark was, namely 14 or 15 cubits high, of the 30 cubits, and would know the water was 15 cubits above the ground when the Ark started moving around in the water, which means that the Ark was arguably built on top of one of the pre-Flood highest mountains.

My favourite idea on which one that could be, for theological fitness, the one where in post-Flood times Golgotha and Mount of Olives is situated. In other words, pre-Flood mountains were very far from the Himalayas in height.

Q IV

How come Noah and his son lived longer than many of their descendants? Is it because they lived in the pre-flood world?
https://www.quora.com/How-come-Noah-and-his-son-lived-longer-than-many-of-their-descendants-Is-it-because-they-lived-in-the-pre-flood-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Mar 15

Noah lived to 950, Shem to 600. Not only did they live longer than their descendants, Noah lived longer than Shem, and of the descendants, Arphaxad, Sale, Heber live longer than Phalec, Reu and down on the line.

It is “because they lived in the pre-Flood world” (up to the Flood) but also because they were not born in the early post-Flood world, since at that time, the cosmic radiation would have been such as to produce carbon 14 ten times as quickly as now.

This incidentally led to a rise of C14 in the atmosphere, but was arguably done to get the lifespans get shorter, gradually, like God had said He would, looking at Raphael Blumberg’s answer, in Genesis 6 verses 3 to 5.

Q V

Were most of the Nephilim the first kings before the great flood of Noah covered the Earth?
https://www.quora.com/Were-most-of-the-Nephilim-the-first-kings-before-the-great-flood-of-Noah-covered-the-Earth/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Mar 6

More like Cainites were the first kings before some became nephelim.

Q VI

Is it possible that the mountains didn’t exist before Noah’s flood?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-mountains-didn-t-exist-before-Noah-s-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered Jan 19

It is very possible and even very probable that mountains as high as we see them today didn’t exist before Noah’s Flood.

How did Noah know when the very high mountains (pre-Flood meaning of mountains!) were covered with 15 cubits of water? Probably bc 15 cubits high, or 14 or 14 and a half was the water line of the Ark, and when the Ark ceased to rest where it had been built and began floating in the water.

But this means it had been resting on and arguably had been built on one of the very high mountains, arguably the highest. And this means, the highest mountains in the pre-Flood world had tops more like Moriah than like Mount Everest.

Q VII

What was life like before Noah? Considering Canaan is histroically Noahs grandson
https://www.quora.com/What-was-life-like-before-Noah-Considering-Canaan-is-histroically-Noahs-grandson/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Answers201

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 47m ago

Your question has two parts.

"What was life like before Noah?"

I would especially like to stress “before”.

Noah was born Anno Mundi 1658. I don't know we have remains of human skeleta, teeth or settlements reaching that far back.

From the time of the Flood, we seem to lack city dwellers, but we have some Neanderthals and Denisovans who seem to have lived in that time about like Indians lived before the West was Conquered.

Probably these helped Noah's family (which had on the Ark some mixed race with these peoples) to go from metal to stone during Noah's remaining life after the Flood, which is the non-Neanderthal part of Upper Palaeolithic. When Noah dies, we find Babel starts getting built, and it is left unfinished in 401 after the Flood, if I am right, we have found it, and it's now named Göbekli Tepe.

"Considering Canaan is historically Noahs grandson"

Yes, but what is that relevant for? Canaan himself was not worshipping Dagon or Baal, as his descendants were going to do a bit after the time of Abraham, when Canaan was already dead. Possibly, Jericho could have been Canaan's city in what is carbon dated to just after Natufian, starting (carbon dated) 9500 BC, exactly as Göbekli Tepe or Babel was Nimrod's project at that time.

Life conditions changed faster than some would have us believe, when one systematic error they make is taking the carbon years as straight off absolute chronology instead of reckoning with a rise of C14 in the atmosphere.

Nev Anderson

24.III.2022

All of the founding characters in the bible are completely fictional. Created as the background of a fabricated Origin Story, for the Israelites, who wished to obscure the Fact that they were Canaanites. They fled into the sisJordan region to escape persistent Persian coastal raids.

Their culture, language, gods were all Canaanite.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

25.III.2022

Annunciation

Where is your ancient documentation for this background story to the Bible?

I’d not be surprised if you had none, and this is a reconstruction.

Nev Anderson

26.III.2022

It is spread across countless archaeological discoveries, research by historians, linguists, and lettered experts in relevant fields.

Where is YOUR evidence that anything you assert actually happened?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

26.III.2022

“spread across” is not a specific reference
“countless” is not a specific list, does not mention even one
“archaeological discoveries” can be misdated
“research” can be flawed whether by “historians, linguists,” or “lettered experts in relevant fields.”

Why don’t you pick one of them, and we’ll see how it fares?

My evidence is, as shareable with a non-believer is,

• a) a story exists for which the FIRST known audience believed it to be historic.
• b) And other stories of other cultures with similar non-fiction status affirm the same event in other details.
• c) And comparing them all, the Genesis account reads like a wiki for the others, has a more precise bearing in genealogies to later known events chronologically, and a description of an Ark of a more viable type of which the dimensions just so happen to match the cargo in animal kinds and their food, if the kinds correspond to in medium 17 species (which is for instance the case of the hedgehog kind).

Nev Anderson

Laetare Sunday

27.III.2022

The assertion that a book of bronze age superstition, lies and fallacies is correct and the entirety of scientists are Wrong is made laughable when one looks at the content of this book.

Such gems as this:

the Earth is flat,
motionless,
set on pillars,
orbited by the sun,
under a star speckled dome,
that keeps out the waters of space,
whilst letting some in through windows,
as rain

Bronze age ignorance encapsulated in a belief in an imaginary bronze age phantasm.

Byeeee.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Laetare Sunday

27.III.2022

Again, more than one "frog blurting out your mouth" ...

"The assertion that a book of bronze age"

So, what is wrong with the Bronze Age, again?

"superstition,"

The Bible doesn't endorse mediums, quite the contrary!

"lies and fallacies"

Detect one liar who is likely to have made even one lie that was believed by the readership or oral audience of Bible texts ..... or a fallacy in promotion of a doctrine.

"is correct and the entirety of scientists are Wrong"

And again, the "entirety of scientists" is not the actual adversity against the Bible. Even if they were, the argument would be a fallacy on your part.

Now for your list of "gems" ...

"the Earth is flat,"

Not there. A globe has as much a circular circumference as a disc. Continents have four corners even if they are posed on a globe.

"motionless,"

OK ... tell me more on who disproved that?

"set on pillars,"

The bases of continental plates would seem to confirm that.

"orbited by the sun,"

Again, who disproved that? Not meaning as in orbital mechanics, but as in actually making a daily circle (presumably performed by an angelic mover).

"under a star speckled dome,"

Reference?

"that keeps out the waters of space,"

More like keeps them up - and they are very high up, starlight is filtered through molecules giving spectral lines for H2 and for H2O.

"whilst letting some in through windows, as rain"

Doesn't actually say that either.

"Byeeee."

I'm fairly free to allow you to go, just so you know it, you are on record, and so is this debate: More Questions on Genesis, Early Chapters, on Quora (go to Q VII)

As a bonus: Bronze Age, the New Slur

I note you gave no answer on my points on historic evidentiality.

Nev Anderson

Laetare Sunday

27.III.2022

You make up a lot of nonsense that was never mentioned
and assert the same tired excuses as every other christian.

Seriously this behaviour damages the religion more than anything. Adherents are leaving in record numbers to distance themselves from the lies, discrimination and bigotry.

So, please keep up the good work.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

28.III.2022

Some people are kind of welcome to leave.

Nev Anderson

29.III.2022

They welcome the opportunity to leave
religion

'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe

3500 People Leave the Church Every Day

Christian Post: 3500 People Leave the Church Every Day

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

Pew Forum: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

Religion Declining, Secularism Surging

U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time

Landmark Study Shows Remarkable Growth of Non-Religious Americans

Religion Declining, Secularism Surging

Youth

Young adults around the world are less religious

Hans-Georg Lundahl

30.III.2022

Unfortunately people like Gretta Vosper or the late John Shelby Spong, and the equally late Antony Palmer or Tony Palmer and that person’s not so late friend Jorge Mario Bergoglio are not openly leaving.

It’s especially drastic with Bergoglio, since he’s kind of traumatising the Catholic Church with his modernist heresies. Some call him “Pope Francis”.

If you ask me, more than people of my persuasion, it is:

• people like Spong or Bergoglio
• and an Evolution biassed dominance in class rooms
• plus a situation where getting married (and applying “no sex before marriage” in a comfortable way) is more and more difficult for the young.

Nev Anderson

31.III.2022

Having noted your position, there is no purpose in asking you, the answer is predictable and unrelated to reality.

Your response is a case in point, it says nothing.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

31.III.2022

You have not been around people like Spong much, I gather … I’m an ex from the Swedish State Church, has its share of them or a bit more.

CSL predicted such people would elicit two responses : if you agree with them, you become atheist, openly, and if you disagree with them, you become a Catholic, as Catholic clergy back then was relatively free from them. I became a Catholic and that remark by CSL had some part in my decision.

Nev Anderson

1.IV.2022

More irrelevant nonsense to misdirect discussion.

I am done here.

Q VIII

Is it possible that Noah’s ark would have become part of Mount Ararat for the last five thousand years or so?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-Noah-s-ark-would-have-become-part-of-Mount-Ararat-for-the-last-five-thousand-years-or-so/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 17m ago

It’s possible for the correct landing place in the Mountains of Ararat, also known as the Mountains of Armenia.

I don’t think the presently so called either Greater or Lesser Ararat are the best candidates, like Durupinar and Mount Judi both seem better alternatives, and I especially favour Mount Judi, since it involves 300 km nearly straight Westward removal to Babel, if Göbekli Tepe is it.

Q IX

What's the significance in the book of Genesis of some people living for hundreds of years?
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-significance-in-the-book-of-Genesis-of-some-people-living-for-hundreds-of-years/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

John Mulligan

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Answered 43m ago

The fact that they did so.

The lifetimes are not allegoric. In the Genesis 5 genealogy, only two lifespans could be considered as having a kind of symbolic meaning, and the other eight are actually mostly even longer, and one cannot consider these as obviously symbolic as some would like to do with 365 years for Henoch or 777 for Lamech.

So, given there is not even any clue to an allegoric interpretation to ages like …

nine hundred and thirty
nine hundred and twelve
nine hundred and five
nine hundred and ten
eight hundred and ninety-five
nine hundred and sixty-two
nine hundred and sixty-nine
or later on nine hundred and fifty for Noah

… how about accepting it is only interesting to anyone as literal fact?

Q X

How do fossils fit with the Bible? Did most ancient fossils come from the worldwide flood?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-fossils-fit-with-the-Bible-Did-most-ancient-fossils-come-from-the-worldwide-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Sun (20.III)

I have two theories that concern fossils which, when carbon dated by creationists, show dates like 32 000 or 22 000 BP. You see, I believe Denisovans and Neanderthals are key to the real carbon date of the Flood. 40 000 BP.

One of the theories is, some animals were trapped in land slides up to 100 years after the Flood, when what’s now mountains was still partly mud, so they were mud slides. Another is, part of the carbon 14 exceeding the (to me) expected 0.7 pmC would come from contamination.

Given that the Morrisson formation contains Uranium, the latter idea has gained in credibility with me.

So, most fossils, even those dating younger than 40 000 when creation scientists carbon date them, arguably did live when the World Wide Flood struck.

Q XI

Do Africans take their origin from Noah also?
https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-take-their-origin-from-Noah-also/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Sule Philips Onyilo

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

Answered just now

Yes, through his son Ham and arguably through Ham’s son Kush.

I presumed you meant Black Africans, for North Africans, Egypt hails both from Ham’s son Mitsraim and from Arabic origins, while Maghreb comes from another grandson of Noah plus Arabic and Egyptian origins.

Added

26.III.2022 the debate under some of above continues, and below I have some new questions:

Q XII

Was the Tower of Babel humanity’s attempt to force its way back into the divine council?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-Tower-of-Babel-humanity-s-attempt-to-force-its-way-back-into-the-divine-council/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now

No, it was not.

• 1. Humanity has never been “in the divine council”;
• 2. Humanity wasn’t all united doing it, the perpetrators are an unspecified “they” (11:2) which need not refer back to These are the families of Noe, according to their peoples and nations. By these were the nations divided on the earth after the flood. (10:32); the perpetrators of this bad project were an élite, people leaving their homes to go to work in Babel;
• 3. According to Josephus, the ones who took the initiative were worried about next Flood and since God in Heaven had not perished in the Flood concluded Heaven was safe from Floods. If I am correct about the dates, this worry would have occurred in the Younger Dryas, when Doggarlands and some other now offshore regions went down in the waves. So, the tower was kind of “Ark II” but with no initiative from God and with distrust in what God had promised.

Q XIII

Where is the location of the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-location-of-the-Tower-of-Babel

A I

by myself:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Aug 2, 2021

Originally Answered:

What are the present-day towers of the Babel location?

I’d say for the present day functional versions of it, Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur to name two.

For the present day location of the project as per back in Genesis 11 - Göbekli Tepe.

A II

by Jay Altieri, applause please! He will introduce next question too, with his answer.

Jay Altieri

Commercial General Contractor and Bible Student

Answered Nov 12, 2019

I’m coming from a conservative bible believing point of view. I think the Tower of Babel was an historic event in deep history. The traditional answer has always been that the tower of babel was in Babylon.

In Hebrew babel is BBL (Hebrew has no vowels- it is consonants only). Babylon also is spelled BBL. Same spelling. But does this indicate that it is the same place, or could it be a homograph? A Homograph is 2 different words with same spelling but different meanings. Like seal and seal. An aquatic animal and a rubber stamp impression. Just because they are spelled alike doesn’t prove that they are the same thing.

There are several big problems with Babylon as the location…

1) Pesky archaeology and historic records indicate that the city of Babylon wasn't founded until much later. Maybe around 2500bc. Babylon is either unsettled or so unimportant that it is not mentioned in any Sumerian records. It shows up as a smallish city in the Akkadian or maybe Gutian period. It becomes important with Hammurabi, maybe about 2000bc. This is entirely too late for an historic tower of Babel. We need something Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

2) The ziggurat at Babylon, frequently cited as having been built on the foundations of the tower, has already been thoroughly remotely graphed. Basically with airplanes and satellites they can take subsurface IR images which gives an indication of what is down there. Babylon ziggurat is clay brick filled. The bible says that the Tower was kilned brick (burnt in a fire, not just sunbaked). This shows up differently and much more distinctly on imaging. The professionals don’t think it is there.

3) According to the Bible, after the flood all mankind was of one big family of cousins. It says in Gen 11:1 they journeyed East (presumably from the ark). It is unclear if they went to the East (Iran-ward), or from the East (Syria-ward), but either way Babylon is way down South in Iraq.

4) There is an escarpment just north of Baghdad (which is itself just North of Babylon site). Geologists says this was the ancient ocean shoreline at some point. In Babylon's founding history, the shoreline had already receded, but it is possible that in the remote pre-history of tower of babel that most of southern Mesopotamia was still under water.

5) Gen 11:3 says that they used asphalt for mortar. Oil is plentiful in the Middle East, but there are specific areas that it tends to be located. Suburban Baghdad is not one of them. Oil fields in Iraq are mostly in the N (Erbil) and in the S (Basrah), not so much in the middle (Baghdad/Babylon). For Babel to be located at Babylon, they would need to import the asphalt from far away.

As an alternate location for the tower of babel, some scholars (and I think I agree) have suggested the Khabur river triangle of North Eastern Syria. This is next to the Turkish border. There are a few reasons to prefer this location…

1) it is from the East if Noah's ark landed at Mt Cudi, per ancient tradition (Mt Cudi is a lesser mountain in E Turkey, long associated with Noah).

2) The area of N Syria and SE Turkey are ripe full of Chalcolithic and Neolithic sites. This is the period that interests us for locating Babel. Southern Mesopotamia's bronze age is too late.

3) Curiously, Göbekli Tepe a famous pre-pottery Neolithic site in Turkey is rather close to this region. Less than 200miles. There is nothing Neolithic, this early in Southern Iraq.

4) Sargon of Akkad, a famous ancient king who overthrew the Sumerians came from the North. Akkad has still never been located, but this is generally the right area. Sargon is later about 2500bc in the early bronze age. But his home town Akkad is significant because Akkad is mentioned along with Babel as a city ruled by Nimrod in Gen 10:10.

5) Oil fields in Syria are located in the East, as I'm suggesting for Babel's site. Before drilling, it would ooze up like the La Brea tar pits. It would be easily and readily available.

We don’t know where Babel was located, but somewhere in NE Syria, along the Khabur tributary of the Euphrates seems to fit the model best.

Tell Brak has a lot of potential. Also within the general region Tell Aqab, Tell Baydar, Tell Fakhariya and several others warrant further archaeological exploration, with an eye towards Neolithic/Chalcolithic Babel. Unfortunately, this was the ISIL stronghold until just recently, when now in late 2019 it is a Kurdish/Turkish invasion site. Syria is still in civil war after 10years of violence. It seems unlikely that scholarly and archaeological work can be performed any time soon.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

26.III.2022

Intro : "But does this indicate that it is the same place, or could it be a homograph?"

Or could it be a Boston / Boston case? The city at 32°32′N 44°25′E could be named for an older, less known, Babel. My take is 37°13′23″N 38°55′21″E

Your reasons against Classic Babylon:

1) "Babylon wasn't founded until much later. Maybe around 2500bc."

Actually, in the Biblical chronology, Babel would have been between 350 and 401 after the Flood, between death of Noah and birth of Peleg. This means, between 2607 and 2556 BC.

Archaeological date for Babylon as in Hammurabi's and Nebuchadnezzar's city must correspond to a later thing, and 2286 BC (as per Ctesias) would be correct for Ninive, not Babylon.

2) "The bible says that the Tower was kilned brick (burnt in a fire, not just sunbaked)."

I am not sure verse 3 refers to exactly the same material as kilned brick, and it does not say this was applied to the actual tower.

3) "It is unclear if they went to the East (Iran-ward), or from the East (Syria-ward),"

Miqqedem means "from the East" and all old translations translate it so.

Babylon would be mainly to the South and on top of that slightly to the East.

4) "it is possible that in the remote pre-history of tower of babel that most of southern Mesopotamia was still under water."

I'd need to check ...

Your reasons to the alternative:

1) "it is from the East if Noah's ark landed at Mt Cudi"

Çudi or Judi, but I agree.

2 - 3) "Neolithic" & "Göbekli Tepe"

I think Göbekli Tepe was the city of Babel, and the "tower" may have been a rocket project (put on hold for 4500 years) rather than a building.

5) "Oil fields in Syria are located in the East,"

I have not taken this into account.

Q XIV

Was the historical Abraham a citizen of the Akkadian Empire?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-historical-Abraham-a-citizen-of-the-Akkadian-Empire

Jay Altieri

Commercial General Contractor and Bible Student

Answered Aug 9, 2021

Abram, later known as Abraham, was born and grew up in Ur. He likely was a young adult in Ur and had been socialized to culture and society within the Mesopotamian world.

However, the Akkadian empire is a little early. Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish. Whereas, the Bible seems to date Abram's life to 1950bc-ish. These are of course a little bit tentative dates, nobody can be too certain on the precise time. But it is pretty well accepted that Abraham was during the 3rd Dynasty of Ur. (Except for the scoffing secularists, who claim the whole thing is fairy tale.)

Also, you ask if he had been a citizen of that country. Citizenship, at least within a legal definition, is an anachronism within the Mesopotamian world. Citizenship entails a legal status as a member of a particular country with associated rights and protection from that sovereign. Citizenship was invented by the Greeks centuries later. In the 3rd Dynasty of Ur and all of the other ancient Mesopotamian societies, there existed nobility and peasants. Ethnically "us" and foreigner "them." True citizenship had not yet developed.

But the gist of your thought I agree is basically correct. I think Abram/Abraham was an historic person and Genesis relates accurate history.

He had been a denizen of Ur in the Third Dynasty. He left his home and traveled far to Canaan, where he heard God's calling and obeyed.

אביעד גיל

August 12, 2021

Thank you for your answer. The dates given for the birth of Abraham coincide with the fall of the Akkadian empire (due to gutian invasion as well as the 4.2kiloyear event) and rise of the gutian dynasty that originally came from the zagros mountains and were of a different genetic stock to the akkadians. My question is, was the real reason why nimrod demanded the killing of all newborns was due to the fact that he wanted to wipe out the remains of indigenous people of Mesopotamia and alter the demography for his own peoples’(gutian) advantage?

*I’m just a history enthusiast nothing more and bare with me if I’m getting things wrong here

Hans-Georg Lundahl

26.III.2022

“However, the Akkadian empire is a little early. Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish.”

Carbon dates or written records of things past?

“Whereas, the Bible seems to date Abram's life to 1950bc-ish.”

In the Roman martyrology for Christmas day, he was born 2015 years BC. This puts Genesis 14 in 1935 (1940 - 1929) BC. The reed mats from En-Geddi are carbon dated to 3500 BC, which matches the event as being before written records, since before fully literate Sumer.

“These are of course a little bit tentative dates, nobody can be too certain on the precise time. But it is pretty well accepted that Abraham was during the 3rd Dynasty of Ur. (Except for the scoffing secularists, who claim the whole thing is fairy tale.)”

Before I accepted that, I’d like to know the III dynasty hasn’t that timespan of c. 2112 BC – c. 2004 BC (wiki) from carbon dates. These dates in carbon chronology would be from when C14 was still rising, from the stay of Israel in Egypt.

Q XIV, again

I had missed I had made an own answer, not yet on this blog.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered Aug 10, 2021

I don’t think so.

Abraham had left Ur Kasdim (either Sumerian Ur or Assyrian Urfa, now in Turkey) and then he had fought for Sodom against Mesopotamian rulers when between 75 and 86, see Genesis 14.

But Genesis 14 includes a detail that ties this to Chalcolithic of Engeddi, and the reed mats with evacuated temple treasures are carbon dated to “3500 BC”.

This was, as far as I can see, before the Akkadian Empire, supposing it has been correctly identified with belonging archaeological material.

Jay Altieri:

// Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish. //

If “2200 BC” has anything to do with a carbon date, it is after Abraham’s times and belongs to the time when Israel was in Egypt.

Added

last of March

Q XV

How old was Noah in the Ark?
https://www.quora.com/How-old-was-Noah-in-the-Ark

William Uchtman

Writer and Author (1986-present)

Answered Wed 30.III.2022

It depends on the version you read.

The Bible claims 900, but those numbers came from an antiquated numbering system the Hebrews in the First Century didn’t understand. In recent years, a scholar named Robert Best researching the old Septuginet-Masoretic numbering system of the Sumerian Empire deduced that any historical Noah existed would have been 48 during the 2900 BC food incident.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

31.III.2022

It seems you are somewhat off.

• 1. Noah was 600 in the Ark, but lived to 950 by living 350 years afterwards.
• 2. There is no such thing as “the old Septuaginet-Masoretic numbering system”. There is a Septuagint text and a Masoretic text, and they differ on details between chapters 5 and 11 in Genesis.
• 3. As they don’t have a specific numbering system, it is not of the Sumerians, let alone of any Sumerian Empire (there was no such thing).

Given this, I am not very sure of the scholar Robert Best either.

The idea that the years were months has been suggested (early on!) and is solidly refuted for the Masoretic text at least, but arguably for the septuagint text too.

William Uchtman

1.IV.2022

He was 600 in the Bible because the Hebrews writing the story down mistranslated the older numbering system. The correctly deciphered version places Noah around 48. Find the book; it’s an incredible analysis of the myth.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1.IV.2022

There is more probably a mistranslation of the numbering system when pre-Flood patriarch life spans, excluding Adam and Noah, rounded to nearest five years, are multiplied by sixty to give the regnal years of Sumerian King List.

The antediluvian patriarchs and the Sumerian King List

Has it occurred to you, that certain genetic changes could doom populations to dying at 30? One that comes to mind would be untreated diabetes type I.

So, compared to the present normal lifespan, lifespans could theoretically get shortened.

How do you prove the present normal lifespan is not shortened in relation to a previously normal one?

If you look at ages in Genesis 11, the lifespans are already decreasing. Creationists have argued - in a statistically realistic way.

Decreased lifespans: Have we been looking in the right place?

Temporal changes in the ageing of biblical patriarchs

"Flood Waters from the Ural Mountains"

Q

Is it possible that Noah may have lived in the last period of the biblical version of the Jurassic period?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-Noah-may-have-lived-in-the-last-period-of-the-biblical-version-of-the-Jurassic-period/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Stef Lynn

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered just now, 29.VII.2021

I consider Jurassic, Permian and such biotopes, not as periods, but as biotopes during the Flood.

A Jurassic pterosaur at Ankerschlag in Tyrol? Buried in the Flood.

A Miocene whale buried in (the vicinity of?) Linz? Buried in the Flood.

A Permian Biarmosuchian of Karoo or of Perm region of Russia? Buried in the Flood.

Forget about Jurassic coming before Miocene and after Permian, that’s not how it worked.

I’ll give you a little hint from dear old wiki:

// Biarmosuchus is an extinct genus of biarmosuchian therapsids that lived around 267 mya during the Middle Permian period. Biarmosuchus was discovered in the Perm region of Russia. The first specimen was found in channel sandstone that was deposited by flood waters originating from the young Ural Mountains. //

Biarmosuchus - Wikipedia

My own reservation against this is - it’s the Urals that originated in the last parts of the Flood, or in the landlift after the Flood.

Though it seems the highest part of the Urals, Mount Narodnaya, at 1,894 metres (6,214 ft) seems to be low enough to have been entirely covered with water during the Flood, I think rather that the Urals like so many other mountain ranges would be from post-Flood times.

So called periods are, partly different biotopes on the land surface, partly different levels of biotopes in marine environments at the Flood. Mostly.