Showing posts with label catholic forums. Show all posts
Showing posts with label catholic forums. Show all posts

Wednesday, August 28, 2013

Lies or Bad Guesses about Inerrantism being Protestant : on Catholic Forums

Series: 1) Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere 2) somewhere else : Bible and Church Questions 3) Creation vs. Evolution : Why I have a Personal Grudge against Kenotic Heresy 4) item : St Augustine gives an inch and some take an ell 5) Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : When St Augustine makes a fault, it is not all that faulty

Thread commented on:
Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture
When did the idea that Scripture was inerrant first come about?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=819140
fisherman carl
When did the idea that Scripture was inerrant first come about?

Especially the NT like Paul’s letters, the gospels and so forth.
annem
Wasn't it when Luther condemned the Catholic four senses of scripture and declared that instead we should only use the literal sense?

Does anyone else know the history of the idea? Patrick 457? Somebody?

God bless, Annem
Own comment here on blog:
No, Luther did condemn four senses, but not in the sense that four senses had not been inerrantist, only in the sense that senses other than the literal (that is three of the four) were no longer either inerrant nor even inspired according to him.

He was not condemned by Trent for "inventing inerrantism", but for attacking the four senses and other parts of patristic understanding.
Khalid (myself numbering his paragraphs and numbering my answers equally)
1) "Inerrancy", in the sense that the Bible was believed to be completely true in all of its parts (although not denying an allegorical sense, nor even denying that an allegorical sense could be the "literal" [primary] sense of some passages) was certainly believed by St Paul, but he spoke only of the Old Testament: "all Scripture is breathed by God" implies inerrancy, since God can not lie.

2) Now, as far as the NT goes, I think Augustine may have been the first to propose something like it, and inerrancy of either Testament is just as certainly rejected by Origen (who believed that there were material errors and absurdities in the Bible which would cause the observant and clever student of the Bible to look for the deeper meaning: Origen placed a near-exclusive emphasis on extreme allegorization, typical of the Alexandrian school).

3) The idea of inerrancy or infallibility in the Biblical text, such as is typified in its purest form by Fundamentalist Protestant Ruckmanites (who believe the English KJV is the only inspired Bible in the world, "more inspired" than the Greek and Hebrew) is very modern.

4) The typical "Chicago Statement" evangelical scholars' view (inerrancy according to the literal or historico-grammatical sense at all points) feels modern, but I wouldn't be surprised if it went back a lot further. It also may not go back much beyond the late 1800s.

5) As always, there is the doctrine proper, antecedent fragmentary doctrines, etc. which become modern formulations of doctrines through the development of doctrine (in response to heresy) as basically explained by Cardinal Newman. I wouldn't be surprised if the full formulation of the modern doctrine of inerrancy (acknowledging antecedents in both the Fathers, and, more strongly, in the Reformers such as Calvin) didn't arise (or, more accurately, is still arising) from the Church's assault by the heresy of evolutionism and historical-critical assaults upon the Bible. Old-age geology, evolutionism, and historical-criticism all came in to their own around the same time - the early 19th century - and soon after came the Church's (in the broadest sense) renewed thinking and emphasis on inerrancy. Even if the full elucidation of inerrancy is modern, or even if it has not been fully elucidated yet, does not mean the doctrine is not ancient and apostolic: the fullest expression of the Trinity was not given until at least four centuries after Christ's death, and likely not for eight centuries: but the doctrine is ancient and apostolic. Doctrines are fully defined only as circumstances (generally the challenge of a heresy focussing on said doctrine) demand.

6) The Protestants felt the hit of these attacks the quickest and the hardest due to "sola Scriptura", obviously (and thus the Protestants either liberalized to the point of Deism/apostasy or began elaborating the doctrine of inerrancy long before Catholics began to feel the shock, which was pretty much only after Divino Afflante Spiritu and mostly after Vatican II) but the Catholic religion is no less based in and completely dependent on the word of God written and the word of God incarnate.
My comment here on blog:
1) St Paul supported inerrancy of Old Testament but also of already extant parts of New Testament. "Keep to all of my tradition whether by epistle or by word of mouth." And his word of mouth traditions certainly included any already extant Gospel that he knew of, to recommend it as infallible word of God.

2) So, St Augustine cannot have been the first to propose inerrancy of all New Testament. Especially as that inerrancy is already implicit in the Council of Carthage enumerating the books of the Old and New Testament, a list which would have made no sense unless it had already been believed in the Church that all Divine Scripture of either Testament was inerrant word of God. Note that the list for the Old Testament includes the books that Protestants reject. The NT list of Council of Carthage was not the earliest one, that the Four Gospels (all of them, including St John which was presumably not written when St Paul came with the Gospel and which he can therefore not have personally recommended while on earth) all are inerrant Scripture is apparent already from Papias and St Irenaeus, way before St Augustine of Hippo. As for Origen rejecting inerrancy of Old Testament in the literal sense, that is no more significant than Luther rejecting inerrancy of Old Testament in the allegoric sense, since neither Origen nor Luther were Church Fathers. It is true that the Alexandrian school was exclusively for allegory, as it is true that Antiochean school was all for letter. And St Augustine, way closer to Rome when learning under St Ambrose, was not for either exclusivity, but for inerrancy of both senses.

3) Believing that the King James Version is inerrant is indeed modern, but believing that the Bible as such is so is not. Trent had defined that the Bible as such and thus each original manuscript was free from all error whatsoever. It took a lower case for Vulgate version, because it is a version, but nevertheless, wherever either Vulgate or LXX or both agree with original manuscript, they are inerrant. It was rejection of inerrantism, namely by Socinians, that was a modernity and rejected by Trent. Also by Jerusalem and Iasi, I think.

4) If Chicago statement was made for KJV, it was wrong, since that translation has even heretical errors in doctrine pertinent to salvation. But if it was made for the Bible in general it was perfectly at one with the Roman Catholic Tradition - with a leeway where Vulgate and LXX prefer, of course. And Trent was not convoked to condemn CHicago statement, and Vatican I, insofar as it condemned anything in it did not condemn its Biblical inerrantism.

5) Calvin was not a Biblical inerrantist, insofar as he considered that Book of Jonah could have been a pious novel without factual background. This I know from the scholarship of C S Lewis. Just as he dealt with Tobit which he rejected. He was however part inerrantist insofar as he declared that the Bible does not teach only what the Church wants it to teach, but all that it in fact teaches. Qualify "the Church" to "the Church at a particular time taken in its hierarchy" and it may be truth to it. Unless there are of course even now clearly inerrantist bishops. Or one of them is the real Pope.

6) The Catholic Church teaches that all of Scripture is inerrant. The Protestants that only Scripture - to exclusion of any particular magisterium and its traditions such as the Reformers presumed as human - is inerrant. Now, Tota Scriptura and Sola Scriptura are not the same concept.

And though the reflection on Sola Scriptura occasioned the reflection on Tota Scriptura in some such Protestants as reflected thereon, only part of Protestantism accepted this Tota Scriptura, whereas loads of Protestants are following Anglican Broad Church in rejecting Inerrancy as "another Papist superstition."


Hans-Georg Lundahl
BpI, Georges Pompidou
St Augustine of Hippo Regia
28-VIII-2013

Wednesday, June 19, 2013

... on Catholic Understanding of Biblical Inerrancy

Catholic Forums :What does the Church mean when she says the Bible is free from error?
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=795193


ProVobis said:

I believe there is only one version of the Bible which the church, via a doctrinal council, has stated that is free from error.


Not quite. Trent said two different things about Biblical inerrancy:
  • a) Original Manuscript by each Holy Author is totally free from error;
  • b) The Vulgate (one of the versions) is free from error in matters pertaining to doctrine and morals.


Note that what Trent says about the Vulgate version is very close to what Vatican II says about the Bible as such.

What Trent does not actually state is whether factual errors crept into Vulgate through careless copying or translation from wrong Hebrew text can always or only sometimes be corrected through non-Vulgate versions.

The Church Father St Augustine states that the LXX has a higher authority than the post-Christian Hebrew manuscripts that St Jerome was translating. The Martyrologium Romanum for 25 of December gives for birthyear of Our Lord (after Creation, after Flood, after Abraham, after Moses, after the Temple or King David, after foundation of Rome) not St Jerome's calculus after his own Vulgate translation, but his calculus after LXX.

If nearly all manuscripts of St Luke state that Emmaus is 60 (LX) stades from Jerusalem, and we know a city called in Arabic Amwaz that is 160 (CLX) stades from Jerusalem, there is after all one Syriac manuscript that has not sixty but one hundred sixty stades in the Gospel text for Easter Monday (if their Liturgy uses same Gospel for same day of Easter Week, that is).

There is a difference between there being two accounts of something and two contradictory accounts. There is a also a difference between apparent contradictions and logically necessary contradictions. When we see what appears to be a contradiction, it is our duty as Catholics to acknowledge that we have come to a misunderstanding of the text. Let me ask you a question. Why do you rest your interpretation of Scripture on the judgment of the Church when that same Church has judged Scripture to be free of error and contradiction?


Agree totally with QNDNNDQDCE. This has however been debated, by one VeritasLuxMea, and I intersperse here my comments:

There is a difference between there being two accounts of something and two contradictory accounts.


Yes, but there are contradictory accounts.


No. In pictorial art, there is no contradiction between a broad panorama and a close up on one detail. In cinema and comics you do it all the time.

Genesis 1 contains a panorama of the creation of all there is, Genesis 2 a close up on the creation of man and the special creation of woman.

There is a also a difference between apparent contradictions and logically necessary contradictions.


Yes, but there are logically necessary contradictions.


When we see what appears to be a contradiction, it is our duty as Catholics to acknowledge that we have come to a misunderstanding of the text.


Ironically, the same approach the Biblical redactors took.


Hoping we belong to the same Church as they, I see no irony therein. I take exception to the word "redactors" as if every final author every time were only redacting earlier collected material. That is of course true for Genesis, Paralipomenon and the Four Books of Kings (a k a Two Books of Samuel and Two Books of Kings, a k a Book of Samuel and Book of Kings).

OK, since when are Catholics Biblical inerrantists: is this new or have we been doing it all along?


We Catholics have been Biblical Inerrantists all along. Only very lately - perhaps before you were born - did certain theologians start to end this.

When we contradicted Protestants on the Mass, we did not say Epistle to the Hebrews was wrong, we said they misunderstood it. We pointed, for instance, to the verse "habemus altare". A verse which puts the Holy Mass in a parallel and an opposition to the Pagan Sacrifices and to the Temple Sacrifices not yet finished but already tainted by Kaiaphas' treason.

When we contradicted Protestants on Mary Queen of Heaven, we did not say Cananeans had any right to worship "the queen of Heaven" as in Astarte, nor that the Prophets were wrong to denounce Israelites taking part of that evil cult, we said that "Queen of Heaven" when applied to the Blessed Virgin Mary means something totally other, since Christ is King of Heaven, just as he is King of the Jews. And that among the Jewish Kings, it was the mother of the King who was Queen.

When we contradicted Protestants on prayers to the saints, we did not say that Exodus or Deuteronomy is wrong to forbid "consulting the dead" (i e through mediums, in cases like Shaul going to a Witch to conjure the ghost of Samuel or other practises to force or allure the dead to speak). We say that even when speaking to the saints, our prayer reaches them through God, not through magic, since God is the source of their bliss, including their right to intercede before his face on our behalf. Like the souls of martyrs under the altar in Heaven who pray for "revenge" - on persecution and not necessarily of each more or less participating in it. Thus for the freedom of the Church. Also in other ways can they intercede for the Church. We also say that the deceased are now in another position than Old Testament dead down in Sheôl, since now Christ has opened the gates of the final paradise for souls who die believing in Him.

When it has been said we were not literalists but believed the allegorical sense, it is not untrue that we believed the allegorical sense, like Christological senses in Creation story, like ecclesiological senses in the Flood story. But this does not at all preclude we believed the literal sense as not just true, but also inerrantly true.

Trent was directed against all the schisms and heresies of 1517. Luther is one of them. Zwingli and Oecolampadius is another. Münzer is a third. The uncle and nephew Sozzini are the fourth (Bucer branching out to Cranmer, and to Calvin, Knox are originally a kind of compromise between Lutherans and Zwinglians). Now, Socinians did attack Biblical inerrancy as well as the already dogmatised Christology of Nicea and of Constantinople, of Ephesus and Chalcedon. Therefore in defining the Bible as inerrantly true, Trent condemned what remained to condemn in Socinianism.

What do we have to gain from playing this game? Besides, does this approach really rescue the Bible? If we have to jam truth down the Bible's throat like pureed squash into a baby, are you really making the Bible any more credible than those who acknowledge obvious mistakes and contradictions?


I would not admit there are any obvious mistakes or contradictions in the Bible.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you rest your interpretation of Scripture on the judgment of the Church when that same Church has judged Scripture to be free of error and contradiction?


It depends what you mean by "free of error." On more than one occasion, the Bible says both X and ~X are true. If the Church, likewise, is saying that both X and ~X are true, then the Church is assaulting the laws of logic and the gift of human reason. In which case, no one can acknowledge the credibility of the Church because it would be physically impossible: we would be living in a world devoid of any meaning, heck - even this conversation that we are having about the subject would be meaningless.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that the Church doesn't want us to think that way.


I do not think the Church or the author of the Bible wants us to think that way either, that is the one point where we agree. Let's take the rest one by one.

It depends what you mean by "free of error." On more than one occasion, the Bible says both X and ~X are true.


Never in the same sense and applied to the same context, no.

If the Church, likewise, is saying that both X and ~X are true, then the Church is assaulting the laws of logic and the gift of human reason.


The Church - I speak for historical Catholicism, not for reinterpretations that found favour with modernist bishops - more usually has been pointing out what is the different occasion when X and ~X are respectively true. Or why ~Y is not ~X, or why X is not Y. Which is not assaulting the laws of logic, though it may appear so to an impatient rhetoric monger who sadly enough borrows his rhetoric from the laws of logic.

In which case, no one can acknowledge the credibility of the Church because it would be physically impossible: we would be living in a world devoid of any meaning, heck - even this conversation that we are having about the subject would be meaningless.


Has or has not the Church of St Thomas Aquinas the kind of credibility this guy acknowledges?

Believing the world was young and earth its centre and angels moving the stars and planets did not seem self-contradictory to St Thomas Aquinas.

The kind of "science" that now seems to stamp Creation story or Joshua chapter ten as erroneous would not have seemed meaningful to a man for whom human science (as opposed to divine, whether kept in God's privy or revealed to man) was limited as to not being there of:

- the contingent past (confer palaeo-sciences)
- the contingent future (confer climate scare and population scare)
- the contingent absent (confer stellar distances) or
- the contingent hidden (whether inside the neighbour's heart or inside a closed room or box)

The kind of harmonising which to the writer I am quoting would have been "squeazing truth down the throat of the Bible" did not seem at all meaningless to St Thomas.

There is another earlier comment by VeritasLuxMea I would like to comment on:

We know that Gnosticism is not "true" because the Church tells us, not because it isn't represented in the Bible. It is.


Gnosticism is represented in the Bible, not as truth but as error. If you count Simon Magus as a gnostic or if you refer to certain warnings against gnosticism in epistles.

Biblical inerrancy is not equal with "Bible alone" or disbelieving everything not explicitly found in the Bible (even if not contradicting it). The Church condemned Gnosticism because it contradicted the Bible as much as because it contradicted tradition. What the Church says is not our ultimate source of religious truth, but one proximate one, not optional, but neither replacing what are the sources of the Church itself: Bible and Tradition. Which means that if Catholic Hierarchs or what seem to be such start contradicting Bible (as previously understood by Catholics, obviously, not as misunderstood by Protestants) or Tradition (whether against Lutherans or against Socinians) it cannot be real Catholic Hierarchy.

It is possible that Trent is a true council and Vatican II not, but hardly that Vatican II is a true council and Trent is not. Even if it could be imagined that Orthodox Churches were in 16th C real parts of the Church, that would not have left automatically Roman Catholics - Latin Rite and Uniates - outside the Church, and Trent would at least have been a local council - like its Orthodox part parallels, Jerusalem and Iasi.

At last, unless someone accuse me of Gnosticism in denying Heliocentrism and Billion Years Old Earth, here are some earlier parts of this blog:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on Young Earth Creationism Denying Gravity (with a certain levity towards the matter, thank God!)
http://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2013/05/on-young-earth-creationism-denying.html


... on Geocentrism being arrogant or disproven
http://assortedretorts.blogspot.fr/2013/06/on-geocentrism-being-arrogant-or.html

Thursday, May 31, 2012

More Obnoxiousness from Moderators

Forum Message

Your account has been locked for the following reason:
circ

This change will be lifted: Never


Circ would be short for what I got when they tried that previous time: circumvention of moderator activity. Above was account hglundahl, below is account johngeorge:

Your account has been locked for the following reason: circumvention

This change will be lifted: Never


I just had enough time to repost previous* message, nrs I and VIII, under new screenname (no false name, straight translation of hansgeorg).

Let us put it like this: moderators seem to lack the verve needed to do actual debating and to have some irritation against those who have it. Their lack of that verve is then - with some help of for instance some women incapable of discussing among men and not knowing it - construed as a virtue about which they are quite humourless: circumventing moderator action is in itself a major offense to them, even if they cannot point or do not point to actual offenses in the things said.

One moderator gave me five points about a few precisely underlined words in a PM: I had not known that the recipient was a lady, or I would have worded it otherwise (not meaning one should be offensive to men, but that some words sound harsher if adressed to ladies. Apart from that moderator activity, which I am blamed for circumventing, has been a kind of irrational tyranny.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Library University of
Univ. de Picardie-Jules Verne
Beauvais
31 - V - 2012

PS: I did send the lady another PM to tell her I was sorry. And no, since she has a boyfriend (a Catholic, maybe her reason for being on those forums), she is not quite a love interest for me.

* "Invalid thread":
Is marriage of two people, one or both of whom is homosexual, but of opposite sex possible?
assortedretorts.blogspot.fr/2012/05/invalid-thread-is-marriage-of-two.html

"Invalid thread": Is marriage of two people, one or both of whom is homosexual, but of opposite sex possible?

I
I was told not when discussing on the now closed thread homosexual marriage. Here is the answer I tried to post there:

---Quote (Originally by TarkanAttila)---
Ah... this can be true, in a sense. I wonder, though, does this mean that anyone who has had children can get married and never have children again? :confused:

But why would a homosexual man want to marry a woman? Part of being married is having sex. IIRC, a marriage can be annulled on the grounds that they never had sex.
---End Quote---


They would have to intend to have children.

The homosexual one would have to decide if sex with the mother of his child or total chastity is the heavier or lighter way of repenting for previous sodomitic life.

Both parties would have to know of his homosexual past.

I have in Swedish recommended Mr Gardell and Mr Levengood to separate, for Mr Gardell to marry the mother of Amos Gardell and Mr Levengood to marry the other woman in that lesbian relationship.

That was when I still believed Mr Gardell had had sex with the mother of Amos, and that therefore it was clear that he rather than Levengood was the father. Later a gay liberal who was also gay told me there was another possibility. It was the same guy whose hatred of John Paul II made me feel Karol Wojtyla was still dying a Christian death as he was cursed by those guys, even if he had not been Orthodox enough to be a Pope.

Anyway, I believe that scenario is licit. At least far more so than remaining in sodomitic relationships. And that is as already stated one of my grounds not to want such relationships to get status of marriage with all the divorce red tape that makes for.

Note: Gardell, Levengood and their son, and the fact that he the other weeks is staying "with two mothers" (but not who these are) is public knowledge in Sweden, it is not like divulging personal secrets. Gardell is a published author and a recognised gay icon in Sweden.

II
Posted by: St Francis
On: May 29, '12 8:20 am

Catholics do not believe in forced marriage. If a woman becomes pregnant outside of marriage and the two parents marry only because of the child, then that can be grounds for annullment.

However, if a homosexual is able to complete the marital act with a spouse (obviously of the opposite sex), then a marriage is possible, and has apparently happened many times!

III
Posted by: rossum
On: May 29, '12 11:36 am

Indeed it has. There is even a word for it: beard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard_(companion)

IV
Posted by: TheRealJuliane
On: May 29, '12 11:52 am

That term does not imply that the two people - the SSA person and the heterosexual person - are having sexual intercourse. They could be dating as a couple in order to throw off the "scent" of reporters hounding the SSA person. That used to happen in Hollywood although many times, it fooled absolutely no one.

It is a myth that gay men cannot have heterosexual sex. Many of them can. It happens.

But long-term, marriage to a gay person is not healthy for the straight person. Very difficult for the gay person to stay faithful, unless (and it's a very big unless) he has worked to leave that life behind. Otherwise, heartache, as well as possible exposure to life-threatening STDs will ensue.

V
Posted by: BlueEyedLady
On: May 29, '12 12:02 pm

That should never happen. It is devastating to the straight partner. I was engaged to a gay man and it destroyed me when he came out. Imagine finding out that the life you were building with the person you love was a complete and total lie. He was never even attracted to me. I feel even worse for peoe who find out after years of marriage and children.

I will say this though, he was a good and strong enough man to be faithful to me.

VI
Posted by: St Francis
On: May 29, '12 1:33 pm

I would definitely say that there should be total openness about this before the couple goes any further than simply considering marrriage.

I was thinking about the situation in the first post, not those where someone hides such an important fact from the other. If that is done, efforts must be made that the other never find out.

VII
Posted by: TheRealJuliane
On: May 29, '12 4:51 pm

---Quote (Originally by BlueEyedLady)---
That should never happen. It is devastating to the straight partner. I was engaged to a gay man and it destroyed me when he came out. Imagine finding out that the life you were building with the person you love was a complete and total lie. He was never even attracted to me. I feel even worse for peoe who find out after years of marriage and children.

I will say this though, he was a good and strong enough man to be faithful to me.
---End Quote---


It is devastating indeed. I'm very sorry that happened to you. It hurts to be rejected for another man, as well. A special kind of pain.

VIII
Myself on new thread after previous was deleted, my post is equal to here I + VIII:

Answering stray comments directed at this when the thread was previously up:

Catholics do not believe in forced marriage. If a woman becomes pregnant outside of marriage and the two parents marry only because of the child, then that can be grounds for annullment.


Forced marriage? No. If the father was takento that wedding under shot gun because of his child, that would be a ground for annulment. If he married the child's mother because it was his duty and he wanted to do that, and if he intended ordinary marital intercourse and being faithful, that would not be a ground for annulment.

That should never happen. It is devastating to the straight partner. I was engaged to a gay man and it destroyed me when he came out.


Saying one has feelings one has not if other partner is likely to build marriage or marriage intention on those feelings is of course a ground of annulment for the other person, since entering matrimony without knowing the intention of the other is doing it unvoluntarily, as when entering a trap.

I would not be very attracted to women who are so very feminine as to not realise what one was talking about: this one had a sad story but no idea it was another subject.

As for finding out one's wife is lesbian it may be less devastating to a man. Roy Campbell (according to a wiki article, I think) found that out about his wife, punished her, and the marriage went on.

http://www.webcitation.org/684BX8uqh