... in Defense of Inquisition Against a Non-Albigensian Admirer of Albigensians

Q

Was the Catholic Church justified in suppressing the Cathars?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-Catholic-Church-justified-in-suppressing-the-Cathars/answer/Philippe-Dangin

Philippe Dangin

Hopis brother,old Greece lover,oldest Egypt disciple

Answered 18h ago

I feel obliged to write because of the consequences of calumnies from the Church hierarchy of which I can see like a continuation in some answers here . Suicide never was a Cathar ritual . It was indeed performed several times in the many hopeless situations in which the Cathars found themselves : sieges lasting for months, no more water and no more food, no way to escape, perspective of being burnt at the stake because none of them wanted to abjure their faith . Beside this, some individuals committed suicides pushed by a sort of personal religious madness, but these were individual decisions, the Cathar spiritual leaders, called the“Parfaits” (Perfects) never promoted suicide .

A point that is not enough said or even known is the Cathars made the first translation of the New Testament for everybody, in everyday’s tongue . It was in Occitan language around 1230 AD, 150 years before the first English translation . In a time when acquiring an original version in Greek was a crime punished by torture and death they managed to get one and translated it for everybody to be able to read it .

Moreover they didn’t trust the official Latin translation, the Vulgate, and they were rather right IMO : the Latin version of the only prayer that the Christ gave to the world, the Lord’s Prayer or Our Father, is in my eyes a shameful crime . “Give us this day our daily bread”, when the Greek term is “ἐπιούσιον”, which means something non-material, best translated by “superessential” or “transsubstantial” . You can see the different level of spirituality …

The major risk for the Church was that the Cathar leaders lived like true Christians : they were poor, they walked everywhere, they healed the sick people, they never indulged in the many vices that were a habit for the Church hierarchy . And they didn’t do any difference between men and women, their most luminous and respected leader was a woman, Esclarmonde de Foix .

Yes the Church had every reason to slaughter them . Too bad for the future Europe, and even the future world, the official Church kept on existing and the “Parfaits” disappeared .

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3h ago

“Suicide never was a Cathar ritual .”

Endura was what?

“A point that is not enough said or even known is the Cathars made the first translation of the New Testament for everybody, in everyday’s tongue . It was in Occitan language around 1230 AD, 150 years before the first English translation .”

How come I have seen OE translations of Gospel texts, from the times before Norman Conquest, in Sweet’s Anglo-Saxon Primer?

Ealc thara tha gehierth thas min word and tha gewyrcth bith gelic snotran monnu …

Sorry for not putting dots over c when appropriate and for replacing thorn with th.

Also, how come Cathars were normally credited with rejecting several NT books?

Also, you are forgetting that the Roman Catholic Vulgate was a translation for those not knowing Greek back in 400 AD, and that it remained roughly comprehensible (about as much as Church Slavonic to Russians or Ukraineans) up to 800, when Latin pronunciation changed. Alcuin restoring an earlier one, in Gaul.

It also remained so even longer in Spain and Italy, because Alcuin’s restored pronunciation took a few centuries before catching on there.

Philippe Dangin

3h ago

I’m totally sorry about the OE translation before 1066, I never heard of them . To my knowledge the Cathars were the first to dare comitting what was a major crime in the continent . I guess the Celtic/Germanic OE translations were unknown out of the islands . A favorable point is religious totalitarism and power of repression was certainly far weaker in this early time and these faraway islands .

Endura was the way how a faithful could and should face death, the best way to act rightly until the last expiration . It was made to fairly die when the time had come but the enlightened Cathars never taught people had to kill themselves .

I didn’t say they rejected the NT, they rejected the translation, and the example I mentioned is enough by itself for me . I hate what the Church Fathers but even more what the various religious churches made of what Jesus and his disciples tried to sow in human consciousness .

Hans-Georg Lundahl

54m ago

"To my knowledge the Cathars were the first to dare comitting what was a major crime in the continent ."

Where does your "knowledge" come from?

It was NOT a major crime "on the continent," but due to Cathars, it became one in certain countries.

"Endura was the way how a faithful could and should face death, the best way to act rightly until the last expiration . It was made to fairly die when the time had come but the enlightened Cathars never taught people had to kill themselves ."

It did not involve starving oneself to death?

It did not involve denying oneself water?

"I didn’t say they rejected the NT, they rejected the translation, and the example I mentioned is enough by itself for me ."

Who are you talking about?

The Church did not generally reject translating, it rejected translations on certain occasions, mainly provoked by Cathars.

The Cathars rejected most books of the NT, not just translation, but actual books.

"I hate what the Church Fathers but even more what the various religious churches made of what Jesus and his disciples tried to sow in human consciousness ."

Oh, you hate the Church Fathers, do you? Well, in that case I don't think you know the NT very well.

And I don't think you know the message of Our Lord Jesus Christ very well either.

Actually, to be frank, I will not trust your reply about Endura not involving starvation and dehydration to death. To me, you have shown yourself a sectarian hot head. Eager to twist all of history into your little message.

Philippe Dangin

32m ago

The NT is the result of a selection, elimination and additions made by some individuals with the limits of their greed of power in some cases and the limit of their spiritual abilities of insight anyways . The hierarchies that came out after lots of fighting and temporal alliances increased that limitation of enlightenment . The fact that for most faithful basic Christians of the Middle-Age and still now in many places the Creation is the arena of a struggle between God and the Devil is a scandalous result of the transmission through our Churches . It really looks like a root of pagan polytheism, 2 anthropomorphic gods fighting each other . The average result in masses consciousnesses is far from the mission of enlighting humanity towards a still inconceivable Unique Being .

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Let’s put it like this.

Your view of Church History is worthless.

You may of course signal this comment for violation of the Bunnybear policy. But that is all I can honestly say.

If you call the Albigensians … I just noticed that you were yourself the very opposite of an Albigensian. They were Dualists and you are a Monist.

You seem too occupied with judging and preaching to even take in history as it actually happened.

Your condemnation of Pagan Polytheism is worthless, since not identic to that of the Church.

Your condemnation of the Church is worthless, since too identic with that of the Protestants - in accusations against persons. Only different in doctrinal content, and very totally so.

Update

next day.

Philippe Dangin

17h ago

I never said I shared Cathar metaphysics . I sympathize with every genuine researcher on the multiple paths that can lead human to become conscious . And I also approve those who don’t mix spiritual quest and material acquisitions, understanding and wealth, humility and power, and above all individual knowledge and belief .

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13m ago

I don’t quite share the sentiment in your approval.

But considering what you do to poor Historia, I think you may have preferred wealth to understanding or taken your very few remaining Protestant beliefs for knowledge.

I have to admit, they seem to have used a complete NT, since “Bible Cathare” in Lyons was a complete such, I was confusing them with earlier types of Manichaeanism.

That said, their antinatalism and rejection of the OT are incompatible with a real belief in all of NT.

Also, you are very forgetful of all the lords who for very base secular reasons were promoting Cathars, whether to gain an excuse to give no tithe to the Church or, discouraging children, to exploit the peasants more.

I am sorry if I took your admiration for Albigenses for some kind of shared “Christianity”, apparently you are Rosicrucian.

Also, along the New Testament they had a plethora of forged books, like Interrogatio Iohannis. Or simply bad books, like Liber de duobus principiis, without faking Apostolic origin.