... on Church Authority and Saints

Why Tim Challies is wrong to be a Protestant · ... on Church Authority and Saints

Last time with this, I answered the video, here I answer another commenter:

Why I'm Thankful To Be Protestant
Tim Challies | 31.XI.2017 (500 years after 95 theses)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOhZj_HgHGA

Vesna Stihovic

What the hell?! I was in there and I didn't even see that statue!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I wonder if it was taken away after the video was made ... I did not see it on the virtual tour ...

Or perhaps he confused with another Church?

Vesna Stihovic

@Hans-Georg Lundahl

The Scala Sancta are in Rome, thanks to that Helena or whatever, near to basilica of some saint. That's where they're crawling those stairs. And this mother Mary I thought it was in Vatican, in st. Peter's temple, but it's a different church because in Vatican I think is only st. Peter's temple and everything else is in Rome. Vatican is a state and they (Catholics) call it a holy land. Google says that it's a city, no, it's a completely separated state, The smallest state in the world, BUT it's there, in Rome. :-)

There's also paws & claws in St. Peter's temple where you put your entire hand in a huge paw and make a wish,... and I guess he didn't fulfill my will.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I was confronted with "bocca di verità" (not on a pilgrimage, and it was, I think, my Latin teacher who told me what it was).

You enter your hand, and if you lie, the statue bites it off, it says..

Vesna Stihovic

@Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hahaha, yeah, yeah, yeah :-) but also you make a wish, I studied Roman law. There is some other paw besides that. I don't know if they worship saints. They are saying that they don't worship Mary, and then they're calling her "the queen of heaven" ... and other stuff. Wearing miraculous medal which is like miracle metals in budaisam. They have immaculate conception dogma and they interpret it as 'she was born into this world free of original sin'. Which basically means she is a God! Or in their case a goddess! It's like Greek and Roman gods (?!) They are pulling verses from the Bible that priests told them to say... Because Jews had the Queen that was mother of the rulers, it wasn't the wife, that's why she's the queen of heaven. Except Jesus is not King of the Jews, or the Gentiles. He's the King of all kings. He died to save us all.

All people are connected to Adam. Therefore, because of original sin everyone is born under the curse of God's law and all break his commandments through sin. There is no difference in the condition of sinners due to age (there was a little girl, under the age of six that was raped by her biological father, I think that was in the 80s and then she was constantly trying to kill parents who adopted her) ethnicity, or sex. All stand condemned before God's law. All human relationships, systems, and institutions have been affected by sin.

Other than the previously stated connection to Adam, any person is not morally culpable for another person's sin. Although families (like mafia for example and other previous example, families in cults), groups, and nations can sin collectively, and cultures can be predisposed to particular sins, subsequent generations share the collective guilt of their ancestors only if they approve and embrace (or attempt to justify) those sins. If modern day living Catholics are justifieing sins of French catholics who committed massacre against French Huguenots on St. Bartholomew's Day, night, then those are their sins as well. Before God each person must repent and confess his or her own sins in order to receive forgiveness.

They don't believe that The Bible is the final authority! God's Word, breathed out by him. It is inerrant, infallible, and the final authority for determining what is true (what we believe) and what is right (how we live). All truth claims and ethical standards must be tested by God's final Word, which is Scripture alone. And they (Catholics) are gonna lose themselves when they read SCRIPTURE ALONE. They're going to pray to some saints, which they did, when was this hurricane Florence (?!)

Christian belief, character, or conduct can't be dictated by any other authority than Scripture alone. The postmodern ideologies derived from intersectionality, radical feminism, and critical race theory are not consistent with biblical teaching.

They don't resonate the concept of clear understanding of what is revealed in Scripture. And then they even brag about that. 'The church is so clear what the Bible says , because if I would read it on my own I wouldn't come to that conclusion' (?!?!?!)

THEY DON'T READ THE BIBLE! Even atheists have read it, and say, OKAY! It's a good literature, but I don't believe in this, BUT it was a good writer, or writers. Some cool atheists, not those who think that Moses was high as a kite when he wrote five books in Old Testament.

God is holy, righteous, and just.
The true justice can't be culturally defined or standards of justice that are merely socially constructed can't be imposed with the same authority as those that are derived from Scripture. Christians can't live justly in the world under any principles other than the biblical standard of righteousness. The church penalty doesn't preclude criminal penalties. Any clergyman of whatever rank or responsibility found to be guilty of unchastity of any kind or who enables or hides it should be deposed from clerical rank. BUT they are not! There is no justice in this crazy world that we are living in.

God's Law, as summarized in the ten commandments, is succinctly summarized in the two great commandments, and manifested in Jesus Christ, unchanging righteousness. Violation of that law is what constitutes sin.

Any obligation that does not arise from God's commandments cannot be legitimately imposed on Christians as a prescription for righteous living.

The legitimacy of any charge of sin or call to repentance that does not arise from a violation of God's commandments is not scriptural.

God created every person equally in his own image. All people have value and dignity before God and deserve honor, respect and protection. Everyone has been created by God and for God.

The Gospel is the divinely revealed message concerning the 💓 of Christianity Jesus Christ, our bright morning star.🌟 Especially his virgin birth, righteous life, substitutionary sacrifice, atoning death, and bodily resurrection - revealing who he is and what he has done with the promise that he will save anyone and everyone who turns from sin by trusting him as Lord.

Anything else, whether works to be performed or opinions to be held, can't be added to the gospel without perverting it into another gospel. This also means that implications and applications of the gospel, such as the obligation to live justly in the world, though legitimate and important in their own right, are not definitional components of the gospel.
Salvation is granted by God's grace alone received through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Every believer is united to Christ, justified before God, and adopted into him. In God's eyes there is no difference in spiritual value or worth among those who are in Christ. Further, all who are united to Christ are also united to one another regardless of age, ethnicity, or sex. All believers are being conformed to the image of Christ. By God's regenerating and sanctifying grace all believers will be brought to a final glorified, sinless state of perfection in the day of Jesus Christ.

Salvation cannot be received in any other way. I think. Salvation doesn't renders any Christian free from all remaining sin or immune from even grievous sin in this life. The ethnicity doesn't exclude anyone from understanding the gospel, nor does anyone's ethnic or cultural heritage mitigate or remove the duty to repent and believe.

The primary role of the church is to worship God through the preaching of his word, teaching sound doctrine...evangelizing the lost. The church's mission is given to her by Jesus Christ, her head. Laws or regulations don't possess any power to change sinful hearts.

Believers can use all lawful means that God has established to have some effect on the laws of a society.

They have saints of musicians ?!?!?! Also, they have saint Pocahontas, I call her Pocahontas because she is a specific saint for Catholics that live in the States, she actually has a different name. She's a Native American.

A saint against infertility!!!??? I mean, I could just go on and on, it's a paganism!! Saint of the poor and sick, saint of lost things!!!!!!????? Stop it!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"They have immaculate conception dogma and they interpret it as 'she was born into this world free of original sin'. Which basically means she is a God! Or in their case a goddess"

No, it means She is like Adam and Eve were before they fell.

"They are saying that they don't worship Mary, and then they're calling her "the queen of heaven""

[Missed this one : not worship Her with the worship of latreia. We do worship Her with hyperdouleia.]

Check Apocalypse who is King in heavenly Jerusalem.

Check book of Kings who was queen when Solomon was king (one of his many wives? no)

"Except Jesus is not King of the Jews, or the Gentiles. He's the King of all kings. He died to save us all."

He is King of the Jews, since Pilate confessed that.

He is King of the Jews since in Heaven He is telling who is and who isn't a Jew.

He is King of the Jews because regenerate Christians are Jews by a kind of adoption or "grafting" (while Jews not believing in Him are "cut off branches").

So, yes, He actually is King of the Jews and His city in Heaven is even same name as the City of David and Solomon.

"All people are connected to Adam. Therefore, because of original sin everyone is born under the curse of God's law and all break his commandments through sin."

Jesus also descends from Adam? Is He a sinner too?

Or is He an exception? Well, if so He had the power to make His Mother an exception too.

"Other than the previously stated connection to Adam, any person is not morally culpable for another person's sin."

We are born TAINTED with Adam's sin and therefore excluded from Heaven.

It is not only saying "nothing guilty" but "nothing impure" can enter Heaven.

"If modern day living Catholics are justifieing sins of French catholics who committed massacre against French Huguenots on St. Bartholomew's Day, night, then those are their sins as well."

There was a report and it was believed that Huguenots had been plotting to kill the Catholic King. It was not a massacre on each and every Huguenot alive, but was at least intended as eliminating the key threats.

It is not as if Huguenots had been peaceful and lawabiding private citizens up to then, that day was a day in a truce during a war of religion.

"They don't believe that The Bible is the final authority! God's Word, breathed out by him. It is inerrant, infallible, and the final authority for determining what is true (what we believe) and what is right (how we live). All truth claims and ethical standards must be tested by God's final Word, which is Scripture alone."

Can you test that claim by ... Scripture alone?

It is certainly inerrant, meaning, it contains no even factual errors. It is not "infallible" in the sense that it can "lead astray" unwary readers. Or allow them to lead themselves astray (and that is in Scriptures).

"And they (Catholics) are gonna lose themselves when they read SCRIPTURE ALONE."

Why would I limit myself like that?

"They're going to pray to some saints, which they did, when was this hurricane Florence (?!)"

I suppose some Protestants were praying to God alone or to the Father through Jesus alone. Before Florence.

"Christian belief, character, or conduct can't be dictated by any other authority than Scripture alone."

I'm sorry, but the Bible itself contradicts you.

"The postmodern ideologies derived from intersectionality, radical feminism, and critical race theory are not consistent with biblical teaching."

In and of themselves, they are not the Catholic tradition. For radical feminism, I agree it is not consistent with Catholic tradition or with the Bible.

For intersectionality, postmodern and critical race theory, would you mind pointing out the contradictions?

"They don't resonate the concept of clear understanding of what is revealed in Scripture. And then they even brag about that. 'The church is so clear what the Bible says , because if I would read it on my own I wouldn't come to that conclusion' (?!?!?!)"

Can you document that from a Catholic?

"THEY DON'T READ THE BIBLE!"

Our clergy and monastics are required to. Laymen have been under different disciplines, some of them spoon feeding very basic Bible truths unless you were deemed mature for reading it, but there is no general and exceptionless ban on even laymen reading the Bible.

"The true justice can't be culturally defined or standards of justice that are merely socially constructed can't be imposed with the same authority as those that are derived from Scripture."

You are forgetting that the Bible itself is culturally defined.

Whether you believe correctly in 73 books or less correctly in 66 books, you will not find any list of the books in the Bible.

"Christians can't live justly in the world under any principles other than the biblical standard of righteousness."

OK ...

"The church penalty doesn't preclude criminal penalties."

Why would that be incompatible with the Bible? I think kohanim were tried by other kohanim and not by lay elders in the OT period.

"Any clergyman of whatever rank or responsibility found to be guilty of unchastity of any kind or who enables or hides it should be deposed from clerical rank. BUT they are not! There is no justice in this crazy world that we are living in."

Deposition from clerical rank and position was the standard penalty from 1568 to recent times for sins of homosexual kind.

The bull by Pope St Pius V was "de horrendo scelere".

"God's Law, as summarized in the ten commandments, is succinctly summarized in the two great commandments, and manifested in Jesus Christ, unchanging righteousness. Violation of that law is what constitutes sin."

Sure.

"Any obligation that does not arise from God's commandments cannot be legitimately imposed on Christians as a prescription for righteous living."

Well, there is a commandment on honouring father and mother, it includes honouring and obeying spiritual fathers (yes, St Paul uses this word about himself) and therefore the IV commandment and obedience to physical and spiritual parents are the ultimate authority behind Church law. This means Church law definitely CAN be imposed as a standard for righteous living.

"The legitimacy of any charge of sin or call to repentance that does not arise from a violation of God's commandments is not scriptural."

As long as the Church authority which imposes a rule is legitimate, its rules are legitimate charges of sin (Sunday obligation, if a licit and valid Mass is available, fasting tomorrow which is Ember Friday after Elevatio Crucis).

"God created every person equally in his own image. All people have value and dignity before God and deserve honor, respect and protection. Everyone has been created by God and for God."

Sure.

"The Gospel is the divinely revealed message concerning the 💓 of Christianity Jesus Christ, our bright morning star.🌟 Especially his virgin birth, righteous life, substitutionary sacrifice, atoning death, and bodily resurrection - revealing who he is and what he has done with the promise that he will save anyone and everyone who turns from sin by trusting him as Lord."

Sure.

"Anything else, whether works to be performed or opinions to be held, can't be added to the gospel without perverting it into another gospel."

Does not follow.

Fasting in general is enjoined, in Gospel, Church decides which days.

Worshipping at Mass is enjoined, in Acts, Church decides which days.

Praying in general and specifically "continuously" is enjoined, Church recommends certain prayers.

"This also means that implications and applications of the gospel, such as the obligation to live justly in the world, though legitimate and important in their own right, are not definitional components of the gospel."

I don't know what you mean exactly by a definitional component of it.

"Salvation is granted by God's grace alone received through faith alone"

Faith without any willingness to good works would give you salvation? You decide to receive Christ as your saviour, but you are still going to watch porn tomorrow - are you saved?

Luther actually, in his moments said yes, and the Catholic Church condemned that.

"Every believer is united to Christ, justified before God, and adopted into him."

Every believer with sanctifying grace in him.

"In God's eyes there is no difference in spiritual value or worth among those who are in Christ."

Yes, there are great saints and there are small saints.

"Further, all who are united to Christ are also united to one another regardless of age, ethnicity, or sex."

Correct - but not regardless of religious confession.

"All believers are being conformed to the image of Christ."

All with sanctifying grace. There are also believers with a dead faith.

"By God's regenerating and sanctifying grace all believers will be brought to a final glorified, sinless state of perfection in the day of Jesus Christ."

All those who die with sanctifying grace on their souls. Which as said is not all believers.

"Salvation cannot be received in any other way. I think."

Than by receiving sanctifying grace on God's terms ...

"Salvation doesn't renders any Christian free from all remaining sin or immune from even grievous sin in this life."

With sanctifying grace, you do not have the guilt of mortal sins on your soul, and if you commit one, you lose grace and need to get it back.

"The ethnicity doesn't exclude anyone from understanding the gospel, nor does anyone's ethnic or cultural heritage mitigate or remove the duty to repent and believe."

Witness : Swedes or Americans or Englishmen converting to Catholicism.

"The primary role of the church is to worship God through the preaching of his word, teaching sound doctrine...evangelizing the lost."

AND providing sanctifying grace, through Holy Mass and the seven sacraments.

"The church's mission is given to her by Jesus Christ, her head."

Correct.

"Laws or regulations don't possess any power to change sinful hearts."

Grace has the power to make them fruitful in conversions. Matthew 28:20 clearly says there are such from the Eleven and their successors all days to the end of time.

"Believers can use all lawful means that God has established to have some effect on the laws of a society."

Correct. Some are always lawful, some are lawful depending on laws. Also, the effect wanted needs to be a correct one. Which the Church tells us more of.

"They have saints of musicians ?!?!?!"

Saint Cecily, yes, she died a virgin martyr. 22 November.

"Also, they have saint Pocahontas, I call her Pocahontas because she is a specific saint for Catholics that live in the States, she actually has a different name. She's a Native American."

Saint Katheri Tekawitha (not sure of either th if it isn't a simple t).

"A saint against infertility!!!???"

Probably more than one. I was at San Juan de Ortega in Spain.

"I mean, I could just go on and on, it's a paganism!!"

Can you show that it is paganism from the Bible?

"Saint of the poor and sick,"

Not sure who you mean.

"saint of lost things!!!!!!?????"

Saint Anthony of Padua, after the city where he died, a k a Saint Anthony of Lisbon after the city where he was born.

"Stop it!"

Why? You are not my bishop, and you cannot show "stop it" or "it's idolatry" from the Bible alone!