Were Popes the Medieval Putin's? No!

Q

Did the Pope de facto control Europe during the medieval era?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Pope-de-facto-control-Europe-during-the-medieval-era/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms

Mo 19.II.2024

Did Olof Palme de facto control the West during the 1970’s?

Did Pinochet exist? Did Franco exist? Would Olof Palme have approved of that?

On one level the Pope had more leverage in theory, he could excommunicate, not just shame, but deprive of Holy Communion, a sovereign of a secular state. But at least one secular sovereign during at least one century or so, circumvented that by naming anti-popes (by misusing the precedent of deposing a very bad Pope and getting a good one in place).

No, he did not control Europe and many things in Europe were what the Pope wanted, not because he controlled all countries, but because he agreed with a series of predecessors who had been fighting for one issue after another. It’s like Palme and Pinochet and Franco and President Carter were all happy with Germany:

• being divided internally and from Austria
• being strongly “democratic” in the modern sense, i e constitutionalist
• not having school freedoms
• not having all that much gun freedoms

It’s not because Palme was controlling the rest, it’s because all the abovementioned were heirs of the Yalta-conference a few decades earlier.

They were all also happy with US, Brazil, and UK with commonwealth having no black slaves and no non-contractual or perpetual or hereditary or non-paid servitue. That’s because they are heirs to 1830, 1865 and 1888. Well before Palme.

Imagine someone in the future pretending Pinochet, Franco, Carter would all have loved:

• Nazi Germany with Ostmark
• OR Germany having very libertarian school and gun laws (actually not compatible with previous!)
• Dixie States with Slave Owning separate from North States.
• Slavery also in Brazil and parts of the Commonwealth, like Jamaica?

B U T … they couldn’t have it, because all these poor guys were under the thumb of the almighty Olof Palme!

That’s about how ridiculous it strikes me to pretend that all Europe was “under the control of the Pope” … apart from power, there is such a thing as being a world conscience. And Popes were lots better at it than Olof Palme.

Q

Did the Pope de facto control Europe during the medieval era?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Pope-de-facto-control-Europe-during-the-medieval-era/answer/Dominic-Lawson-25

Dominic Lawson

Former Start Up Creator at Betting Exchanges (2000–2020)

Mo 19.II.2024

To all intents and purposes the answer to the above is ‘Yes’. The Pope could effectively unseat Kings.

The Catholic Church became the most powerful institution of the medieval period.

Kings, queens and other leaders derived much of their power from their alliances with and protection of the Church.

Power was derived from ‘Wealth’ and the Church was the richest institution on the global platform.

You will need to remember that being a member of the faith was not a ‘choice’ but a ‘duty’ and not only was that duty very much imposed upon you but that duty came with a 10% ‘Tithe/Tax’ on all of the income derived by you and your family.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mo 19.II.2024

An Economist with Dunning Kruger at Medieval history.

Popes could unseat kings, but kings could unseat Popes. Usually neither tried.

Most of the Church riches and Church duties were directly tied to the local Church, where Kings were often mightier than Popes. The same goes for the power of Kings, it was less their alliance with the Pope than with their closest to the capital archbishop. Which then they were sometimes controlling more than the Pope did. That was a battle field for Kings and Popes, Emperors and Popes, and the Emperors were for at least about a century involving in playing Sheriff of Nottingham with the Pope cast in the role of … well, Friar Tuck.

Glimpses of Sanity

related, not identic question wordings

Q

Why was the Papacy so politically powerful in early medieval Europe?
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-the-Papacy-so-politically-powerful-in-early-medieval-Europe/answer/Tim-ONeill-1

Tim O'Neill

I have a M.A. in Medieval Literature and have studied most aspects of the period for many years.

Updated 9 years ago

Helena Schrader

PhD in History, University of Hamburg

2 years ago

Q

How much power did the pope have in medieval times? Did he have a final say before a declaration of war?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-did-the-pope-have-in-medieval-times-Did-he-have-a-final-say-before-a-declaration-of-war/answer/Helena-Schrader-1