Rejecting Freemasonry

Is Freemasonry a Cult: Seven Minute Seminary
Seedbed | 30.X.2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C8pDTG92es

I

5:35 In fact, Catholics and Catholics alone are called "living stones" in I Peter 2:5.

II

dialogue:

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Here would be a great reason not to become a freemason.

"GAOTU" ("GADLU" in French).

What would make such a title (un-Biblical) offensive to the true God?

1) A certain "great architect" lived who was called Nimrod (not someone God found admirable or just or holy);
2) It also suggests, falsely, a "god" who only made the universe, but is not involved in its upkeep and is not its owner or lord or judge.

blazecorp

Grow up.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp Into a Mason?

No thanks!

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl No, just an adult with a brain would be a good start.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp Thanks, but that involves the right to reject Freemasonry - as I did.

What are you complaining about?

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl 1st GAOTU is not a word and it is not from the French. 2nd. Nowhere in masonry does it say the creator is just that and doesn't monitor/upkeep the universe. As a matter of fact its the opposite and if you knew what you were talking about, the evidence is right in front of you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp Heard of Acronyms?

English : Great Architect Of The Universe = GAOTU

French : Grand Architecte De L'Univers = GADLU.

"Nowhere in masonry does it say the creator is just that and doesn't monitor/upkeep the universe."

1) But does it state He still owns the Universe and is its Lord?

Or can Masons pretend "he" has given it over to man?

So much about "suggests".

I did not say Masonry stated the false suggestion explicitly.

2) You are not adressing my first point, Nimrod being an Architect.

Check out Luke 14:28-30.

I think the Real God stated why He did not use "architect" as one Biblical name for Himself.

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl When making the comment it would seem you are using the acronym as a word. Try to be clearer. As for Nimrod, he may have been a king but he wasn't the architect of the universe. There for it is clear he wasn't the architect GAOTU is based on. Please don't make things up in an attempt to create false information about Freemasonry. And as for rejecting Freemasonry...so what. Its not for everyone.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp "he wasn't the architect of the universe"

No, but he was the architect of a tower that didn't go very well.

Not something that the maker and Lord of the universe wants to be compared to.

"There for it is clear he wasn't the architect GAOTU is based on."

I didn't say he was.

"And as for rejecting Freemasonry...so what. Its not for everyone."

It's in fact for no one, since it is a heresy.

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl And at no point does Freemasonry compare him to God. You're comparing him. Thats like saying Jesus is King but lets compare him to Herod the King.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Yes you did. You compared him. Associated him to Nimrod.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp You know, I did not say you consciously based your title for God on Nimrod (even if the devil or very evil ultrainitiates behind you may have done so).

I am saying God probably based His Biblical non-use of such a title on His disgust for Nimrod.

Christ and Herod both being Kings is in fact sth which has a point : that is how Herod came to think of Christ as a rival.

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl hang on....Your original post was about reasons for not becoming a Freemason. You actually ARE saying that the use of G.A.O.T.U. is a comparison with Nimrod. Its your first point. Ive proved your second point false. And now you ARE comparing Herod and Christ? At this time of the year? Dude whats wrong with you?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp "You actually ARE saying that the use of G.A.O.T.U. is a comparison with Nimrod."

No, I am saying it is comparable with Nimrod.

I am not saying you are making that comparison consciously or deliberately.

I am saying God, the real God, is making it and therefore not accepting worship as G.A.O.T.U.

@blazecorp "And now you ARE comparing Herod and Christ?"

Both were in some fashion kings of Judah.

The de facto and the de jure one.

Both true for Herod the Great who murdered infants and for Herod Antipas (I think it was) who was promoting the Crucifixion.

God wanted that comparison for a purpose.

@blazecorp Plus, you have not exactly proven my second point false, there are lots of Masons who would even deny personality to GAOTU, like Grand Orient type Masons. Or, perhaps they do not even accept that concept, but some who do have no Theistic concept of it.

Voltaire clearly was a Mason, clearly was not Grand Orient type and clearly had a Deistic concept of GAOTU - as an architect who after handing "the house" over to man leaves it to them. Hence no miracles, that would be like contracted architect paying uncalled visits to new owners.

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl How do you know what God is thinking? Why would he not except praise and pray from those that worship him? Do you think he would get confused? You seem to have knowledge about God no one else on this planet has, I wonder how? Or is this just your opinion?

@Hans-Georg Lundahl How do you know this? You're making an assumption on behalf on God. Do you speak for him more than others?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp As a Catholic I can note the Catholic Church has not approved invoking God under that name.

And I can also note, it is not in the Bible either.

I can also judge freemasonry on its fruits.

Even barring things like its being behind French revolution, it is certainly behind much of the indifferentism as to religious confession which wears down to indifference against certain moral rules of the right religion, that being Catholicism.

When was the last time a lodge openly took sides against contraception or homosexuality?

blazecorp

Hans-Georg Lundahl Once again you both belittle God and make assumptions on his behalf. Masons come from all walks of life. We live the motto “love thy brother” . Something Jesus both taught and practiced. We are not a religion so we allow our members to practice their own faiths. When we say GAOTU, it is a personal prayer to our own God.

Hans-Georg Lundahl Yes let’s judge Freemasonry by its fruits with proof. We have built hospitals, funded schools, supplied scholarships, built retirement villages for the elderly. Things we haven’t done: created wars (no we were not behind the French revolutionary movement and if you’re going to make things up then supply proof), inquisitions, witch burnings, barter with fascist governments and ignored genocide, judge others because they are different and create divisions within Gods children. We are NOT a religion but we teach morals and ethics.

You want to us to take a stand against things that divide the people. And you wonder why the Church is losing people at a record rate. You wonder why people protest the church regularly.

You’re disgusting judgemental attitude should be turned in for awhile. You’d find a lot to deal with.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp "Masons come from all walks of life. We live the motto “love thy brother” . Something Jesus both taught and practiced."

He also chose a clergy, and taught to hear it as one would hear him and hear God the father.

"We are not a religion so we allow our members to practice their own faiths. When we say GAOTU, it is a personal prayer to our own God."

Meaning, if someone is praying to the idols Osiris or Baal, you accept that too, and you certainly accept "brothers" who consider the Quran or the Kabbalah give better clues to God's identity than the Apostolic, Nicene and Athanasian creeds along with the update to Trentine Creed (Nicene + some added anti-Protestant clarifications).

"We have built hospitals, funded schools, supplied scholarships, built retirement villages for the elderly."

Which Catholics did well before you.

And better scholarship.

"Things we haven’t done: created wars (no we were not behind the French revolutionary movement and if you’re going to make things up then supply proof),"

Apart from Barruel's studies on the matter, there is the fact that a few months before 14 July 1789, a Mason was in command when putting down a popular protest in a very bloody way, which led to the kind of shame in the army where not firing on the insurrection (which clearly became one) was seen as a good thing.

Plus of course, while Jacobins didn't start the French Revolution, their takeover of it was a particularly bloody episode. You are not denying that Club Bréton was a kind of lodge?

"inquisitions, witch burnings,"

I'm subtly reminded on who is providing a Black Legend against the Catholic Church on these grounds.

"barter with fascist governments"

Sure, Pius XI should have continued claiming Papal states and at the very least insist Vatican state was a continuation of it. Reminds me of how Masons were hardly very pro-Catholic in the dark days of 1870.

"and ignored genocide,"

Being unaware of a secret genocide is perhaps not a crime. Were Masons aware before 1945 and were they providing Catholics with proof? Plus, being too outspoken against Hitler would have provoked further atrocities on his part, at least Pius XII thought so. You don't mean you are promoting the lies of Hochhut, are you?

"judge others because they are different and create divisions within Gods children."

Christ certainly gave His Church the right and duty to judge. And your claim to unity "despite sectarian differences" is in itself another sectarian difference drawing God's children away from the Catholic Church.

"We are NOT a religion but we teach morals and ethics."

Well, Christ provided His religion with the right and duty to teach morals and ethics, are your morals and ethics the Catholics ones? You haven't answered when a lodge last condemned contraception or homosexuality, for instance, nor, by the way, am I very sure all lodges consider abortion should be forbidden in law. In fact I think there was a Masonic majority in Supreme court during the infamous Roe vs Wade case. There certainly was when "dividing wall between Church and state" was being introduced.

"You want to us to take a stand against things that divide the people. And you wonder why the Church is losing people at a record rate. You wonder why people protest the church regularly. You’re disgusting judgemental attitude should be turned in for awhile. You’d find a lot to deal with."

With "disgusting" you just forfeited your credibility in claiming to be non-judgemental. Morals and ethics do divide people. So much indeed that Kantian or ex-Kantian Eichmann found certain Nazi directives ethical.

blazecorp

@Hans-Georg Lundahl I do love the pride and arrogance you show...As if you are right and anyone who questions you are wrong....Now I wonder who else showed that type of pride and arrogance? I'm pretty sure he took a fall...what was his name again? You'd know him as you seem to have a lot in common.

As for accepting men who follow different religions, yes we do. Muslims and Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist. They are all men of this Earth and there for equal. We tend not to have your pride or arrogance. Their faith is there own.*

I do like your attempt at trying to drag me into a "pissing" contest. "We did it before you did..." Please try to behave like an adult.**

As for Club Breton being a Masonic lodge, not it was not and if you are attempting to link it, we can add liar to pride and arrogance. If you have some proof? But I can see that it had many links to the Catholic faith...hmmm.***

As for the church and its dealings with fascists. Your wonderful church didn't even lift a finger to help those being sent to the concentration camps in Germany during WW2 but you were happy to take the scraps from Mussolini. Masons built underground organisations to help get people out of war torn areas° and for their trouble 100,000 were killed in those concentration camps. Hitler hated Freemasonry because he called it the greatest opposition to fascism on the planet.°°

I admit to judging you in this case°°° as you have shown yourself to be a bigot~ and hatemonger.~~ A man who throws religion up into the faces of those different to him~~~ and promotes injustice and inequality.~~~~ You are so far away from the path of Christ its scary.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp "Your wonderful church didn't even lift a finger to help those being sent to the concentration camps in Germany during WW2"

When it came to Club Breton, I asked, I didn't assert.

You did assert above lie, which I quoted.

Check the Assisi Underground by Ramati.

Check also why Rabbi Zolli chose to convert after the War.

Since asserting a thing you cannot exactly know is a lie in your book, even if you believe it, just because it isn't true, you are now by your criterium a liar.

@blazecorp "Now I wonder who else showed that type of pride and arrogance? I'm pretty sure he took a fall...what was his name again?"

The one the Pharisees considered arrogant took 3 falls to Calvary.

He also rose from the dead.

He answered

only little.

Here:

blazecorp

Hans-Georg Lundahl I do love the way you cherry pick. A talent at the very least. Just like when you need something to persecute someone. Oh the bible says this but ignore this part because I break that rule. I wonder what God thinks of your cherrypicked practice of Christianity?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@blazecorp You have given no example.

Apart from that

he didn't answer.

So, here are the other items in footnotes.

* Yes, their faiths are their own, mine is God's.

** It escaped him that I did not content myself with saying who was first, I added who was providing best scholarship.

It also escaped him that it is hardly "adult" to get worked up about accusations against someone's Church, especially if claiming to accept all faiths, which adds inconsistency to the "pissing contest" aspect.

*** Club Breton met in a former convent of Dominicans. Key word former. It's like tying the Lutheran curate in Wittenberg to Catholicism because what the Wittenberg Church was before Luther "reformed" it.

° As mentioned, so did the Catholic Church. The Assisi Underground specifically helped Jews to escape.

°° He hated the Catholic Church too.

°°° Candid admission.

~ In Masonic parlance that means Catholic.

~~ Hatemonger is rich from someone who routinely calls Catholics bigots. Rich, but not tasty.

~~~ Jesus also was not accepting false religion. See His less than gentle approach to many Pharisees, and His gentle but firm approach to a woman from Samarian sect.

~~~~ I don't see any thing I promoted as unjust, and inequality on some issues is not inherently so.