In Answer to Robert Nett

AronRa Mixed Archaeology and History (Including Legend) · In Answer to Robert Nett · Nett & More (Verbal Violence Warning)

How Archaeology Disproves Noah's Flood
AronRa | 29.VI.2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24WbQkRx2_8

Robert Nett

@Hans-Georg Lundahl

In this case you end up, with the problem that the word 'world' doesn't seem to mean 'world' but rather continents.

And you still have the dome hard as caste bronce with holes to pour rain in...

And the pillars, the waters above, the waters below and the idea the earth is unmoving.

Perhaps the bible contains some philosophic ideas that are good. I don't deny this.

But objectively spoken, it's not a really good geology guide.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Robert Nett, the actual words are not "four corners of the world" (mundi, in Latin), but "of the earth" (terra, in Latin). And both Latin terra and Hebrew eretz have meanings referrable to the body in relation to surroundings in heavens, but also referrable to dry land in seas.

Dome - you said "hard as cast bronze", you didn't say "of bronze"? Because that sounds you actually quoted. A thing can be considered "hard" in different respects, and while solid would be wrong, strong is however a very plausible meaning referring to the aether surrounding us all the way up to the stars. When it moves East to West it even carries the Sun with it ... as God moves it ... and I just answered unmoving earth is no problem.

Pillars would be lower mid parts of continental plates.

Waters below would be waters in the seas and lakes (and there seem to be waters even below surface, plenty), waters above would involve H2O and H2 molecules in space, and ... just leaves "holes to pour rain in", I don't think that is what "flood gates of heaven" mean, I think there was a field separating a huge cloud of hydrogen gas above it from atmospheric oxygen below it, and the opening allowed Brown's gas to form and be ignited to form water.

Did I forget anything?

Robert Nett

@Hans-Georg Lundahl It's in my opinion quite a stretch.

Yes - I mean you can fit all those things in, if you squint enough.

But that's basically the same way as Nostradamus predictions work. If you want to believe you'll find a fitting pattern.

However, it is far from a clear easy to understand explanation. It really resembles more the writings of people with no understanding of how nature really works.

And the idea of a cloud if H2 sepperated from O2 by a magic force field, is simply fantasy without anything to proof it. Sorry to say so.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I'd say the H2 cloud around us was already mostly depleted, as Brown's gas became Flood water and now is mostly in Oceans, while lots of the rest is found dispersed in space.

No, I don't think I'm squinting. I am not balking at taking geocentrism as well as an aether most modern scientists don't believe in, in order to get the Biblical terms true.

Robert Nett

@Hans-Georg Lundahl That's not how gravity works. IF there was a H2 cloud big enough to cover the whole planet AND to create enough water to create this miracle flood - the mere pressure of gasses and subsequent heating due to excess energy would have boiled the earth.

The aether was disproven and subsequently dropped as an hypothesis on the break of the 20th century (1890 around, don't know the exact date on top of my head).

That isn't even a question of believe. That is simple scientific methode at work.

We have a hypotheses, that explains what we observe. But then something comes around that disproves the hypotheses - so it get's dropped. Simply as that.

So you don't believe in geocentrism. Good for you. But you still try to believe in a worldwide flood - at least that's what I get from your earlier posts - which defies anything and everything we know about gravity, physics, geology - even history.

There is no world spanning flood layer. Nowhere on earth. There is however flood basins on several coastal or former coastal areas around the world. But all of them date to different times.

Water or H2 can't stay in outer orbit - solar winds would drive it away in a rather short time.

A water layer inside our atmosphere - or inside the gravitational influence sphere of the Earth would have blacked out the sun and subsequently have killed all life on earth long before the flood.

There is cultures that lived right through the alleged flood - I mean it was dated round about the 6th Egyptian dynastie.

Chinese and indian calenders go right through the flood. There isn't even a break in archeological findings. No change in techniques - nothing that indicates, that all people (save for 8 middle easterners) died.

People is another point: How in the world the world got repopulated? Even ignoring the inbreed-depression a genepool of 8 men (+8 alleged wives) would create?

Especially as there are buildings, cities and so on mere decades after the time of the flood?

Look - you can squint and squeeze all that you want. The Bible - like any other religious text, may contain some early and maybe even some still applicable social rules. But it doesn't explain how nature works. Not in the slightest. It doesn't contain godly knowledge - but the observations of people we would call savages in our day, who simply didn't know any better.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Robert Nett "IF there was a H2 cloud big enough to cover the whole planet AND to create enough water to create this miracle flood - the mere pressure of gasses and subsequent heating due to excess energy would have boiled the earth."

That depends on how much Flood water came from H2 above O2, mingling when Flood gates opened, which also depends both on how much came from sources of the deep and how much water in total (you know, Mt Everest didn't exist when water covered highest mountains by 15 cubits, nor did Mont Blanc).

"The aether was disproven and subsequently dropped as an hypothesis on the break of the 20th century (1890 around, don't know the exact date on top of my head)."

It was only disproven if Heliocentrism is true. The Michelson Moreley proved EITHER geostasis is true OR there is no aether. The experimenters didn't want to face the first very seriously, so presented it as aether being a no no.

"So you don't believe in geocentrism."

You missed my point completely. I said I wasn't squinting, since I was against modern science and for straight forward Bible reading on this point as on aether = firmament.

"There is no world spanning flood layer. Nowhere on earth."

Most layers together (not Younger Dryas, though, which is post-Flood), are mostly Flood layers.

"But all of them date to different times."

Mostly by Potassium Argon, which says how fast lava was cooling in different parts of Flood at different water depths and speeds of fresh water replacing the hot one. Contd.

@Robert Nett "which defies anything and everything we know about ... - even history."

"There is cultures that lived right through the alleged flood - I mean it was dated round about the 6th Egyptian dynastie."

Compressing Egyptian dynasties.

"Chinese and indian calenders go right through the flood."

Chinese doesn't, if we go by LXX or even modified LXX dates of Roman Martyrology.

Indian one of Kali Yuga dates from death of Krishna, who on my view was a pre-Flood hero, probably Jubal.

"There isn't even a break in archeological findings. No change in techniques - nothing that indicates, that all people (save for 8 middle easterners) died."

I'd say démise of Neanderthals and Denisovans at "40 000 BP" indicates 38 centuries BC is the carbon date for a Flood which actually occurred in 2957 BC. If C14 level was at 1.4 pmC, we get about that much extra years or instant age.

@Robert Nett "Water or H2 can't stay in outer orbit - solar winds would drive it away in a rather short time."

Well, that may be the reason why H2 and H2O is spread all over space now, it only had to remain enough H2 up to 2242 after Creation to contribute to the Flood.

"A water layer inside our atmosphere - or inside the gravitational influence sphere of the Earth would have blacked out the sun and subsequently have killed all life on earth long before the flood."

So, what about an H2 layer in that kind of place?

@Robert Nett "People is another point: How in the world the world got repopulated? Even ignoring the inbreed-depression a genepool of 8 men (+8 alleged wives) would create?"

Genepool of 3 brothers and their 3 wives. Noah and his wife (3+3+2=8) contributed probably no more after Flood. BUT a lots better genepool than today.

Because the grandchildren of Noah didn't have to scramble for a very modest and family-insufficient place in real estate, in order to live where they could get employment.

@Robert Nett "Especially as there are buildings, cities and so on mere decades after the time of the flood?"

Decades after Flood?

As in carbon dated 20 000 BC?

You call Lascaux and Altamira "cities"?

@Robert Nett "the observations of people we would call savages in our day, who simply didn't know any better."

Even such people, I would very usually trust on their history. "We left from North five centuries before the Spaniards came" = Aztlán is history. Possibly somewhere in Utah, since the Ute Amerindian language is related to Nahuatl.

Therefore, even if I weren't already Christian, I'd trust the Bible on genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11.

And I would consider first part of Genesis 11 explains uniquely well why there are different peoples.

Robert Nett

@Hans-Georg Lundahl

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Point 5 is especially about the flood itself.

It - as said before - simply defies everything remotely possible in nearly every regard possible.

The rather short time btw I talk is more like hours or days rather than years. And it get's split by inoising radiation.

Further any layer of water or even H2 enough to create something like the flood would block out nearly any sunlight - so nothing would have even survived until the flood.

But I recommend the article above.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl :

Again - squinting, and ignoring.

Neanderthals didn't get extinct 3800 years ago - it's more like ten times longer.

Of course if we simply pretend that carbon-levels magically were completely different than anything we found (by an error margin of 90%) then it works.

Or better: If any and every scientist lied and only a few bronce age writers were correct...

Or if God - for whatever reason dumped a big heap of false evidence which indicate a longer age, perfectly, seamlessly. Then it would work. But why would God pretend then that the world is orders of magnitude older than it is according to the bible.

We have living trees older than the alleged creation of the world - let alone the flood.

We have corall reeves dating a hundred thousand years back.

But for a change - can you maybe point to anything resembling a proof for the flood - outside of the bible?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

"Point 5 is especially about the flood itself."

OK, taking a look at stated point 5.

It enumerates possibilities, and ignores (obviously) mine. I take a combination of hydroplate with H2 layer, the latter as already described.

As to hydroplate:

"How was the water contained? Rock, at least the rock which makes up the earth's crust, doesn't float. The water would have been forced to the surface long before Noah's time, or Adam's time for that matter."

Not if it was properly contained, as in bubbles ...

"It - as said before - simply defies everything remotely possible in nearly every regard possible."

Except, it doesn't.

"The rather short time btw I talk is more like hours or days rather than years. And it get's split by ionising radiation."

H2 does? Well, what if both solar wind and ionising radiation of levels we now have are post-Flood phenomena? Renders preservation of a H2 layer up to Flood less impossible.

Further any layer of water or even H2 enough to create something like the flood would block out nearly any sunlight - so nothing would have even survived until the flood. Plus, check out this one, flies in the face of your allegation:

http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/earth-atmosphere-extends-beyond-moon-hydrogen-gas-cloud-2019-2

(Business Insider is not a YEC site, btw).

But I recommend the article above.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl :

Again - squinting, and ignoring.

"Neanderthals didn't get extinct 3800 years ago - it's more like ten times longer."

According to their own chronicles, or according to carbon dating?

"Of course if we simply pretend that carbon-levels magically were completely different than anything we found (by an error margin of 90%) then it works."

Thank you very much.

I think a lot of solar activity and radiation was added just after the Flood, principally causing the Ice Age which among other benefits helped keep sea levels fairly low after Deluge. Plus the radiation may have contributed to developing way shorter lifespans than before or even just after Deluge.

"Magically" doesn't really bother me, I think God could tell the angel of the Sun "turn some radiation on" and he did.

"Or better: If any and every scientist lied and only a few bronce age writers were correct..."

I happen to think events of the past are best known by the testimony of those who lived back then, not by reconstruction, however learned, later on. As to "lied" - do you mean including "lying to oneself"? As to "any and every scientist" - are you arbitrarily excluding Academic diplomaed scientists who are YEC?

"Or if God - for whatever reason dumped a big heap of false evidence which indicate a longer age, perfectly, seamlessly. Then it would work. But why would God pretend then that the world is orders of magnitude older than it is according to the bible."

Or if God did something else, knowing but not caring, that a few godless scientists would twist that into evidence (including, obviously, twisting it before themselves, I think they believe what they say, usually).

"We have living trees older than the alleged creation of the world - let alone the flood."

Namely? When I checked, it was a matter of oldest living tree being a bit younger than LXX dates for the Flood.

"We have corall reeves dating a hundred thousand years back."

By estimates that are far less precise than even tree ring dating with matches.

"But for a change - can you maybe point to anything resembling a proof for the flood - outside of the bible?"

Outside of the Bible, and presuming you include outside of the Catholic Church (beginning "publically" as Jewish Church back in Moses' time) and its tradition that the Genesis account is based on tradition from those who lived on the Ark, well, there are mainly two other evidences that spring to my mind:

• traditions outside the Bible of world wide floods;
• fossils of most layers, except, as mentioned, Younger Dryas, and, as implied, some of the Jurassic and Creataceous (particularly US) could also be early post-Flood rather than from Flood.

On point one, I already mentioned, I do side with "savages" when they tell their own history.

On point two, it may be mentioned, that while a Jurassic shark can be found over a Palaeozoic Trilobite in remains from pre-Flood seas, you don't find Cretaceous Ceratopsians walking over Permian or Triassic Dimetrodontes in remains from pre-Flood land.

@Robert Nett I actually forgot answering one, here is my "esprit d'escalier" on that one.

"Further any layer of water or even H2 enough to create something like the flood would block out nearly any sunlight - so nothing would have even survived until the flood."

H2 blocks out light? You know it is an invisible and perspicacious gas? As "durchsichtig" as O2 and N2 and CO2, right?

@Robert Nett I might want to tell you and hope you don't mind (too much), our dialogue (excluding other participants on this thread) now has readers:

https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-answer-to-robert-nett.html