On Proselytism in Holy Land

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : On Proselytism in Holy Land · Are There Catholic Censors Too? Probably ... · Is Jenna Moreci Confirming Mark Lipschitz? · New blog on the kid : Why am I Still on the Street

People like some of these hate my mother. Situations stemming from attitudes like these may very probably be behind de-Halakhisation of Catholicism - way before Constantine.

Q

Is Christian proselytizing illegal in Israel?
https://www.quora.com/Is-Christian-proselytizing-illegal-in-Israel/answer/Curtis-Scissons

Curtis Scissons

B.S Biology & Chemistry, Northwestern State University (1998)

Answered Wed

Christian proselytizing (to Jews) is indeed illegal in Israel. Mainly because of the underhanded tactics such people have used in the past to try to lure the unwary into their web of lies and deceit.

Such as dressing up as Haredi and infiltrating the Jewish neighborhoods where such groups live

Such as pretending to be Jewish so as to be able to make Aliyah under the Law of Return, then when in Israel, attempting to tell us Jews about the “good News” of Jesus.

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wed

If Jewish as to Aliyah rights is defined as ancestry, some of them or all of them arguably are Jewish. No lying.

And when my grandpa was offered Aliyah, the fact that he was an agnostic and baptised posed no problem - he just chose not to take the offer.

Curtis Scissons

Original Author

Wed

Thre have been several cases when Halachically Jewish applicants were denied Aliyah beccause their stated purpose was to proselytise. One case was (I think) Rufesien?

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wed

OK, in other words the Zionist state is persecuting Christianity.

Glad my gramp did not take Aliyah.

Curtis Scissons

Original Author

Wed

You darn right they are. Ain’t it great??!?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fri

Great disaster, if so.

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Marc Lipshitz

14h ago

Actually the law is very clear: Hews that have converted to any other religion are NOT included in the law of return and would have to enter like every other non-Jew. No persecution, but is treating them as they want to be treated, as non-Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

“Hews that have converted to any other religion are NOT included in the law of return”

Since when?

My grandfather was offered Aliyah, he was baptised and not (as far as I know) circumcised.

Marc Lipshitz

6h ago

Since 1970 when the amendment was passed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

OK, I am born in 1968 and he got there for a visit before my birth.

So, he had foresight in turning it down.

His oldest brother was a devout Christian, even if he was Agnostic.

He could arguably already then see sth would be wrong for family if going to a land where Herod the Great is a national hero - or where Palestinian rights were neglected - or where granny couldn’t stand the heat for her heartproblem.

Marc Lipshitz

9h ago

Ah, now we see the true colors showing with the false claims being made: Herod is NOT a national hero and Arab Israelis have the same rights as every other citizen. As for your granny’s heart problem- if she were in Israel she would be reveiving the most advanced medical treatment available so maybe the heat wouldn’t be a problem at all.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

I am sorry, but all information I had heard implies that he is or was to recently honoured, like for building Masada fortress and things like that.

Arab Israeli citizens are not the only Palestinians.

My granny died in 1993 and my gramp in 1976. Perhaps the very advanced treatments were already there, but even so, she didn’t like being in too hot weather.

So if my claims are false, show how they are so. Show an official tourist site about Masada where Herod is treated like a crook. I rather think you being a South Africa residing pious Jew, you might not relish all that Zionism stands for.

For that matter, show me a Haaretz or Jerusalem Post article in which Herod is treated like very unfortunate. And not one signed as letters to the paper where a pious Jew is showing an opinion not shared by the paper.

As for true colours, well, I am anti-Zionist, but I was Zionist before I realised Palestinians are Israelites and how such Palestinians as are not citizens of Israel are treated.

I did not try to actively hide either aspect of my attitude.

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Caroline Ben-Ari

Wed

My understanding is it's not illegal per se, it's only illegal if there's any type of “incentive” offered to the potential convert in return for converting.

Ephraim Herer

Wed

Apparently according to Wikipedia it (was?) also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent were an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor. Despite the legality of proselytism, the government has taken a number of steps that encouraged the perception that proselytizing is against government policy. For example, the MOI has detained individuals suspected of being “missionaries,” and required of such persons bail and a pledge to abstain from missionary activity, in addition to refusing them entry into the country...The MOI has also cited proselytism as a reason to deny student, work, and religious visa extensions, as well as to deny permanent residency petitions.

Marc Lipshitz

Thu

1 upvote from Ephraim Herer

Yes, non-citizens coming into Israel are expected to actually behave themselves and respect the native population. Every country can put conditions on non-citizens entering. However, those who are citizens can easily engage in proselytization as long as they do not offer any form of inducements to convert.

IV

Marc Lipshitz

Thu

It should be illegal- it isn’t. It is only illegal when some form of inducement is used. Pure talking and preaching is, unfortunately, allowed.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Unfortunately … Thanks for being that candid about your hatred of speech.

One question, how often is it people like you make conditions worse for a convert and “missionaries” cannot help him due to the clause about “illegal if some form of inducement is used”?

Marc Lipshitz

14h ago

No hatred of speech- but hatred of those that cause the deaths of souls of others by their speech.

And denying inducements to missionaries leads to hard ship which they created. If the people had remained Jewish they would have had a commujity to support them. Not our fault if the after they convert they no longer have a community that would support them. Receiving charity funds is not illegal unless it was part of them promises made when they were converted or conditional on their conversion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

“but hatred of those that cause the deaths of souls of others by their speech.”

That involves a hatred of their speech.

I concur about speech causing death of souls being a hateful thing but it is your speech and not the Catholic one which kills souls.

Also even converting to Evangelical is getting nearer to the truth in some ways, if not from Catholicism.

“Not our fault if the after they convert they no longer have a community that would support them.”

In other words, you are denying them both your own community and the one they went to.

“unless it was part of them promises made when they were converted or conditional on their conversion.”

Meaning they can get just some little support from their new community in proportion as it also gives same support to unconverted Jews. Who can harrass the converted ones.

Yes, in such a case it IS your fault, between state laws and community if they are in undeserved hardships.

Marc Lipshitz

6h ago

Wrong- it’s simple: the Jewish community supports Jews, not non-Jews. If missionaries offerninducements to convert innIsraelntheybhave broken the law, and the person who has converted has left the community and is no longer supported by the Jewish community. Why should we support them when they have chosen to leave?

and my speech kills zero souls but saves them. Getting Jews to abandon G-d kills their souls. Stopping them from doing so saves them from that fate.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

It would have been simple if you had not also an evil law which forbade the Christian or semi-Christian (Evangelical) communities from supporting them.

And if the community “of Israelite confession” had not been a big reason there is this law, which is contrary to God’s.

You are blind and if blind or self blinded allow themselves to be led by you, they fall with you into the pit.

Marc Lipshitz

9h ago

You can invent whatever law you like but there is no “evil law” preventing Christians from supporting other Christians. The law is that no inducement can be offered to convert- after they have converted nothing wrong with a community providing support unless it was part of what was offered to get the person to convert. What is evil is people using the misfortune of others to get them to convert and destroy their souls.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

OK, “unless it was part of what was offered” … “using the misfortune of others” even one contingent on their conversion?

It is not very obscure how the conditions you outline could be abused to first allow someone to convert, then at first allow the community he converted to to succour him, then belatedly find out they had breathed some indication about them being able to support in that particular way, and therefore conclude the support is forbidden since “part of what was offered to get the person to convert”.

Laws are like dogs : they can run as far as the leash lets them. The formulations you are giving are open to horrible abuse, and I think some Jewry in Paris have underhand stopped Catholics from supporting me, as they had hoped for my applying for Israeli statehood and are “preliminarily” applying application conditions.

While I am not in any decently reasonable sense a convert from Judaism, I am one to Catholicism, I am also a writer and it seems Catholics over here have some trouble helping me out as a writer.

Not sure whether the Jewish tactic had been threats or making me look bad (like a double agent) before Catholics, but I am sure I have met hatred over here.

Here is one example I documented by a screenshot published on my blog:

I am NOT a National Socialist, But Some Take me For That
https://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2017/09/i-am-not-national-socialist-but-some.html

Marc Lipshitz

17h ago

As much as anti-Semites want to blame Jews, their is ok “Jewish tactic” causing you hardship. Jews have zero control over what Catholics do in Paris, you’ll have to find your scapegoats elsewhere.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

Rabbi Krygier is very good friends with the Vatican II-ers.

I went out on his behalf so as to alienate SSPX-ers by saying if the “archbishop” simply during Advent wants him to tell Christians fasting is important in Judaism too, that’s OK.

Then I saw what he had actually been saying in Notre Dame, namely that there were criteria Christ had not fulfilled for the Messiah and that we needed to build a Messianic future collectively together instead of waiting for an individual Messiah.

I stamped his vision of the future as blasphemy and I verified that Isaiah 11, at least from “his sepulchre shall be glorious” on has been fulfilled verse by verse by Resurrection and by first Catholics uniting Church of Jerusalem to a second Church in Samaria and by the Church then spreading to Edom, Moab and Ammon when the Church of Jerusalem fled to Pella and next we have verses by and large fulfilled by Christian populations in Egypt and Iraq. AND Palestinians are to this day fulfilling the promise insofar as they are Christians.

Some years later, when I was begging, I saw rabbi Krygier walk by with a Catholic priest or Vatican-II sect clergyman, and while I cannot verify whether it was me they talked of, I overheard and was maybe meant to overhear words, certainly speaking of hatred, perhaps if I don’t misrecall, even of mental illness or madness.

He is rabbi of the Masorti Jews in Paris.

In St. Nicolas du Chardonnet I think some of the converts from Judaism have spread a word, if not directly from him.

Catholics here are very sensible to Jews complaining about someone being a Nazi and they are not always scrupulously checking the allegation against the person’s own statements, even if they are available in plenty on my blogs. If Jews consistently have complained as that AO person (you checked the link and the screenshot, right) whom I anonymised so as not to expose him to vendettas if I should have fans capable of doing such, of the supposed fact I “am a Nazi” as they claim, there are Catholics in plenty whom that will sway to consider me as at least if not Nazi, mentally ill. Which is not the best way to get them printing my texts commercially, if you see what I mean.

Calumny is sufficient for such Jews to be guilty, even if they do not directly control the Catholic parishes in question.

Marc Lipshitz

18m ago

The Vatican rejects your writings and you try to allege that it is the fault of the Jews…. Anti-Senites like to claim Jews control everything, we don’t especially not mother religions and their hierarchy. The Vatican has rejected you that is because they chose to do it- it has nothing to do with the Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

The Vatican does not control everything Catholics do in Paris. It most definitely has given no official public declaration no one can print what I write - which is the usual Catholic mode for rejecting someone’s writings. In fact, the one foreseen by canon law.

Some parts of my writings are so little theological that ordinarily speaking even under older laws, bishops and popes would have no say about it, unless I went out of my way to include sth totally anti-Catholic.

St. Nicolas du Chardonnet, where I was a parishioner, is specifically rejecting many directives from the Vatican, claiming “the Pope is Pope, but a bad one whom we do not need to obey or even ought to obey”.

There is where Jewish influence would be least direct. Like Jews influencing parish of St. Étienne du Mont, that one influencing its policemen, and these influencing colleagues who prefer St. Nicolas du Chardonnet who are then in a position to argue to the priests there about me.

Now, would there be Jewish influence both in the Vatican and in the parishes that unlike St. Nicolas du Chardonnet accept its directives (including St. Étienne)? “Pope Francis” is friends with Rabbi Skorka. At least one, probably more Catholic clergymen of Paris are friends with Rabbi Krygier.

Again, both in any “normal” parish and even in St. Nicolas du Chardonnet, the accusation of being a Nazi would be damning enough for no one to want to look at what I do and apart from St. Nicolas du Chardonnet and the Sedevacantist parish, every other parish in Paris can be influenced by Jews via ecumenism. At least on the level of obeying their archbishop.

Cardinal Lustiger was a Jew who converted and he set the policy of a very close relationship between the diocese and the Parisian Jews (especially ecumenic ones like Masorti Jews).

Marc Lipshitz

Just now

Let’s repeat: the Jews do not control why Catholics do. If your writings are rejected from publication by Catholics that means they do it want to publish them- it has nothing to do with the Jews. They obviously do not see your writings as worthy of being published, you may think they are, but they disagree with you. It has zero to do with the Jews.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

"Let’s repeat: the Jews do not control why Catholics do."

You control what you do. Some Jews play violin and some play piano. I compose music too. Secular, if not klezmer.

Plus guilt for what Catholics do is as said not limited to controlling them, it also is the case if you succeed in calumniating me before them.

Plus Lustiger put the parishes of Paris and the archdiocese of Paris into such a close ecumenic relation with Judaism, that your assessment is not totally realistic. One reason to reject Vatican II establishment is, it lies flat over when Jews complain.

"If your writings are rejected from publication by Catholics that means they do it want to publish them- it has nothing to do with the Jews."

Supposing they saw them in the first place and did not simply take the word of Jews for what they are. When my blogs are advertised in Paris and get 3 hits in France one day for 70 or 100 in Ukraine, or sometimes Russia, the suspects for denouncing me unduly in Paris are limited options, and Jews are one of them (Orthodox, Evangelicals, Communists, Psychiatrists being other options).

"They obviously do not see your writings as worthy of being published, you may think they are, but they disagree with you."

I have not even seen a reasoned disagreement. I have had "I will look" and next week "I haven't had time to look". In other words people are being discouraged from looking. I have not had any editor or clergyman write me "we reject your writings, because ..." so and so.

Plus some of my writings might be of interest to pious Jews, I have given conditions so that you could start re-publishing those ones on paper, and your chosing not to has nothing to do with the Catholics, it's your choice - unless the Jewish leaders here and the Catholic leaders here are in it together.

"It has zero to do with the Jews."

As said, it has. Probably with Muslims too. But perhaps less, judging from stats.

Take a look at three blogs that I have been advertising in Paris region these last days, for last 24 hours the stats are:

Ukraine 54
Pologne 30
Russie 14
États-Unis 13
Australie 3
Émirats arabes unis 2
Argentine 2
France 2 + 2 more countries with 2.

États-Unis 62
Allemagne 3
Japon 2
Australie 1
Canada 1
Russie 1 (no France)

États-Unis 1 (no France)

These two have on and off also been advertised, on separate cardboards:

États-Unis 64
Ukraine 7
France 3 plus 4 more with 1 each

Italie 72
États-Unis 3
France 2
Ukraine 2

URLs will be given if you want to know.

[But he didn't like to analyse the facts in his answer, so he didn't ask:]

Marc Lipshitz

3m ago

Advertise wherever you like- your success or failure is about you, not the Jews. Yes, we know people like to blame the Jews when they fail, it’s so much easier than taking responsibility for themselves!

Let’s repeat: the Jews have nothing to do with the Catholics not wanting to publish why you wrote. Nothing to do with Catholics not wanting to associate with you. Yes, we can see you like to blame the Jews, too bad for you that you look to blame others instead of taking responsibility and growing up and being able to grow.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

"Advertise wherever you like- your success or failure is about you, not the Jews."

A fine example of Jewish prejudice, and as it is pure guess work about my worth, based on prejudice, it is even a lie.

"Yes, we know people like to blame the Jews when they fail, it’s so much easier than taking responsibility for themselves!"

There is a difference between failing and being exposed to a blockade.

"Let’s repeat: the Jews have nothing to do with the Catholics not wanting to publish why you wrote."

Jewish pilpul.

Plus again, a priori guess work, totally ignoring the facts I presented.

"Nothing to do with Catholics not wanting to associate with you."

You are even overdoing it. I didn't say that they didn't want that. Some do, others do not.

"Yes, we can see you like to blame the Jews, too bad for you that you look to blame others instead of taking responsibility and growing up and being able to grow."

Identifying a blockade and Jews with a prejudice like yours (the one you expressed and I cited) as part of it, that is definitely part of taking responsibility, once the issue is sufficiently clear. As I am 51, I am already grown up. I don't do your "mental age" schmuck. And if Catholics do, it has something to do with them associating with you who have done it for quite some time. You just illustrated what I mean.

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Mike Nelson

Wed

For the underhanded tactics used by some misguided Christians, I have no problem with that being illegal. I have an issue with a blanket prohibition. For example let’s say I visit Israel and share my faith with a Jew who is willing to hear and non-fraudulently, non-harrassingly, non-coercively attempt to convince him to accept Christianity. Have I committed a crime?

Curtis Scissons

Original Author

Wed · 1 upvote

Why would you want to “Share your faith” with a Jew? Do you think there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus? I promise, we all have. Over and over and over. Plz keep your faith to yourself.

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Mike Nelson

Fri

I heard the Word hundreds of times before I before I believed it and I have been harassed by the people you have described, both before and after I became a Christian. Those misguided Christian who use those tactics drive people away, they don’t draw them to Christ. I have never been to Israel. But in Los Angeles I did ask someone “Would you like to hear more about Jesus Christ?” not stupidly assuming he knew nothing at all. When he answered “Not interested, I’m Jewish.” I said “God bless you” and left him. Had that happened in Jerusalem rather than Los Angeles, would I have committed a crime under Israeli law? I understand that Jews do not proselytize, but Christians do, it’s part of our faith. When a Muslim wants to tell me about his faith, I say “not interested, I’m a Christian” but I don’t get angry at him for asking.

Marc Lipshitz

14h ago

No crime if you just speak to them. It is not unclear- no inducements are allowed, no gifts, no promises of favors but just plain speech is allowed. It is likely to get a negative reaction most of the time- JEWs in general are tired of missionaries and your incessant attempts to convert us.

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

“Do you think there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus? I promise, we all have. Over and over and over. “

From your rabbis, plus perhaps (even in Israel) quickly closing your ears.

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Curtis Scissons

Original Author

9h ago

Uh.. No. Not from rabbis.

From Christian proselytisers being obnoxious jerks and doing things like sneaking in our synagogue to tell us “Good News" during Yom Kippur, laying hands on the synagogue building itself to “remove the scales from our eyes",

Having an alter call during a public school assembly (-John Jacobs and the Power Team)'’ , passing out evangelical literature to the Jewish kids during field trips to different places of worsip,

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Just now

OK, sounds obnoxious as far as synagogues go.

They probably think they are imitating Apostles praying in the Temple or St. Paul preaching in Synagogues.

Next time please tell them, the Temple was common heritage between Christians and what is now called Jews and the synagogues to which St. Paul went had not yet pronounced the excommunications on Christians at the Sanhedrin of Jamnia.

As to schools, if Christians are admitted to them, they have as much a right as synagogue representatives to hand out material. You can’t righteously have BOTH a public school system and a severe apartheid within it on which parents can be represented and which cannot in passing out literature to the pupils.

EDIT : in the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church did not interfere in your entirely separate school system and reserved a right to preach in synogogues exactly once a year.

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30.XII.2024

Esther Steier

I find it extremely surprising that Christians seem to think that we would discuss their god - it’s as if they think that according to Judaism - Christianity is something that would make sense to us, and so rabbis got to preempt this somehow….

Discussing jc is as relevant as talking about Zeus and hades

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don’t say Christianity makes sense according to Judaism.

I say it makes more sense than Judaism according to Moses and the Prophets.

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Esther Steier

You seem to think rabbi’s spend time discussing jc.

why would a rabbi need to teach about why we don’t believe in jc anymore than why we dont believe in Zeus?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Why would only a rabbi be authorised to discuss with the Christian?

Gives me totally sectarian vibes.

Esther Steier

What are you talking about?

31.XII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

That sects, or in other words cults, have their rules that only the “religious experts” among them meet people and especially apologetics from other faiths.

Circumcision of the Lord

1.I.2025

Esther Steier

Who told you only rabbis are authorized to Discuss with the Christian?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You seemed to imply it. By the comment:

“You seem to think rabbi’s spend time discussing jc.”

I had not mentioned rabbis, you brought them up.

By the way, Tovia Singer does.

V b ij c 1

Esther Steier

Well my point was no one spends time discussing Christianity, it’s irrelevant.

you write that we must hear about Jesus from the rabbis -(which brings up an aside that you also seek tot think Judaism is about rabbis are the one who say what to do and everyone has to just listen..) and I was (attempting to) communicating to you that, this is silly. Why would rabbis be talking about Christianity or Jesus- it has nothing to do with Judaism.

Christianity and it’s beliefs arnt ideas that need to be discussed or understood or known about in order for one to follow Judaism.

sure as a curiosity one might be curious and get into the ins and out of what exactly Christianity believes in and why it claims is from the OT and why we say it’s not. But that’s really all.

Of course there are individuals like rabbi singer and rabbi skobac who have dedicated their time to providing a response to movements like Jews for j and Messianic Jews, these movement are considered particularly nefarious because of the ways they try to twist Judaism into Christianity and prey on Jews who have a vague understanding of Judaism that’s just barely an understanding so they find these arguments compelling.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You give me the very distinct impression that:

• rabbis told you not to discuss Him
• you think what they told you is all you need to know.

“prey on Jews who have a vague understanding of Judaism”

• and that the things they told you about converts to Christianity seem true to you.

V b ij c 2

Esther Steier

“Do you think there are Jews that have never heard of Jesus? I promise, we all have. Over and over and over. “

From your rabbis, plus perhaps (even in Israel) quickly closing your ears.

this was the response I was responding too

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I actually don’t know if you live in the Holy Land or not.

I was thinking of the situation of those who do.

In France or Sweden, you’d probably have heard about Him from your favourite Gentile friends, and that would also not be the most qualified to talk about Jesus.

I don’t think there is one place where you are not able to avoid Catholic priests. Or (less qualified) Pentecostal Pastors.

V b ij d

30.XII.2024

Esther Steier

also to your point; your concept of Judaism is simply what Christianity claims came before Christianity and not what we obviously call Judaism)

according to the framework in which Christianity sees and understands the world - Judaism is certainly going to not make much sense

just like how Christianity makes little sense to how Judaism understands and views the world

which brings me back to my point; no one needs to spend time Discussing jc in Judaism- because it simply is irrelevant to Judaism

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thanks for the input.

If it’s so irrelevant, why the big fuzz against missionaries?

Seems you talk through both sides of your mouth. On the one hand it is important enough to shift the Aliyah rules from ethnically Jewish to ethnically Jewish but not Christian. On the other hand it’s so unimportant I’m boring you.

Well, if it is, why do you answer me? I’m not applying for Aliyah, you see!

V b ij d 1

Esther Steier

Missionaries prey on ignorant Jews and ppl in difficult circumstances

often they use underhanded tactics and lies and twist words, like making claims about Judaism and pretending to be Jewish or twisting Hebrew phrases

just like you may think your saving ppl by spreading Christianity- we are saving ppl by preventing this

movements like messianic Jews or Jews for j are especially nefarious - because they twist Judaism into Christianity

which is often the main targets of anti-missionary movements

31.XII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, but if you think as a religious Jewish stance that missionaries are lying on a religious level, why bring in the law of a supposedly secular state, like Israel?

You have your Tovia Singer, I think he’s the dishonest guy. Why not be content with that?

Plus, if you are SO uninterested in Christianity, how can you even tell if we are not the better guys about explaining the OT?

V b ij d 1 e

Esther Steier

I think you misunderstand the difference between relevant and interested/curious.

Relevant mean it has to do with the topic or not

Christian themes have nothing to do with Jewish beliefs (note; what you call Judaism that came before Christianity is not the same thing that we consider to be Judaism that we believe was taught by Moses)

You can claim you understand the OT, why would we care about what you say it means-

we’re not lacking in our understanding of the tanakh. It’s not like we feel there is a part missing. It’s complete. It’s perfect. And it makes perfect sense to us. Why would we care what an outsiders claims - especially ones that preach ideas that contradict what we plainly see the Torah teaches?

you seem to think the only way we can practice Judaism is by first eliminating the possibility that Christianity is correct - that’s actually what Christianity needs to do, you guys begin by saying why the Jews/pharisees were wrong and what you got Coreect. In your faith it matters why you disagree. In you faith there is no other. All other claims are irrelevant. What we believe, study, know is complete and perfect

Does an astronaut who went to the moon care what a flat earther says?

Circumcision of the Lord

1.I.2025

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“It’s not like we feel there is a part missing. It’s complete. It’s perfect.”

Douay-Rheims Bible (Leviticus 16)

Where is your temple?

We can say the Messiah came, left us with a new sacrifice, in two forms, once for all on Calvary, and even so renewed every day in Holy Mass.

The last time you admit these things happened as described in the Torah was less than a century, more like 70 years, not much more, after Zacharias acted the High Priest, 15 months before God was born in the flesh.

The interruption at present is not comparable to the interruption in the time when Daniel was in Babylon.

Again, Isaias 11:

Douay-Rheims Bible

You can hope the greater Israel will be furthered by the cruelty of Netanyahu, I can say it already came, 2000 years ago, and the Christian Palestinians are part of what remains of that.

Some astronauts who went to the moon should perhaps care a bit more on what a Geocentric has to say about how they viewed Earth.

V b ij d 1 e g

Esther Steier

I don’t know what your banging on about Netanyahu

fyi I’m not isreali,

and I find the idea of Israel even wanting to create a “greater isreal “ stupid. Why on earth would they start such a crazy suicidal initiative? And for what - to have to then manage more people that are angry at them for taking over their land, ppl who have demonstrated quite clearly the lengths they will go to in order to disrupt Israel?

how dumb

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Well, Isaias says the Messiah will create this Greater Israel. (Will from his perspective of 700 BC or sth)

Some people who think He hasn’t come yet hope to help him along. Glad you aren’t of that persuasion.

V b ij d 1 e h

Esther Steier

yes as per scripture the destruction of the temple is a consequences that G-ds says can and will happen should the ppl as a whole (as opposed to individual sin) not follow the covenant. - as per scripture there are protocols in place for how one is to worship G-d without a temple.

As per the covenant the temples destruction and subsequent exiles will remind the ppl to return to G-d and follow the covenant.

in Leviticus it talks about this in great length.

Also, I do actually mean Judaism is complete in that there is no new information we are lacking about how to serve G-d

we actually don’t believe the world is perfect - we believe that the world will have reached its goal aka its purpose with the coming of the messiah and will usher in the time period known as the end of times or referred to as messiniac times because it’s when the messiah will rule.

also why on earth would an astronaut care? They might be curious for interests sake, but why the heck would the flat earthers opinions matter to their understanding of how the world works? You think they will want to see if the arguments are compelling? Because they have doubts or think their writings have value and merit? Do you think they will find it necessary to read the book before they can be satisfied in believing that earth is round??

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“that G-ds says can and will happen should the ppl as a whole (as opposed to individual sin) not follow the covenant”

Deuteronomy 28, right?

But this answer begs the question, how can you then still be the people of the covenant, when you aren’t keeping it well enough for God to preserve or soon enough (like after 70 years) restore your temple.

“as per scripture there are protocols in place for how one is to worship G-d without a temple.”

There is no detailed description of them in Daniel.

There didn’t need to be, because that interruption was short.

“As per the covenant the temples destruction and subsequent exiles will remind the ppl to return to G-d and follow the covenant.”

What if the Covenant to follow was given 2000 years ago, by one Greater than Moses?

“As per the covenant the temples destruction and subsequent exiles will remind the ppl to return to G-d and follow the covenant.”

I think your protocols about what to do in the absence of the temple do qualify as new information. Just that it came through rabbis, not through God. We claim God gave us new information even before the Temple fell.

We have an altar, whereof they have no power to eat who serve the tabernacle
[Hebrews 13:10]

Tabernacle here meaning Temple of Jerusalem, which was still standing. And our altar is still standing.

“we believe that the world will have reached its goal aka its purpose with the coming of the messiah and will usher in the time period known as the end of times or referred to as messiniac times because it’s when the messiah will rule.”

We believe the Messianic times started 2000 years ago.

“why the heck would the flat earthers opinions”

I didn’t say anything about the Flat Earther. I did say sth about the Geocentric. NOT the same thing.

“to their understanding of how the world works?”

Being an astronaut and going to the moon may be very ideal to refute Flat Earthism, but it’s irrelevant to Geocentrism. If the capsule was rotating around Earth with the aether (or fabric of space time, the portion of it rotating each day around Earth), the view the astronaut had about Earth rotating is equivalent to the view of the Eiffel tower rotating, if you are in a chopper rotating around the Eiffel tower.

“Do you think they will find it necessary to read the book before they can be satisfied in believing that earth is round??”

You seem to equate Geocentrism with Flat Earth, for some reason. They are not the same. Seeing the Earth from different angles certainly does settle it is a globe. However, it doesn’t settle whether Earth or yourself if moving. When Magellan saw the Earth from different angles, he knew he was moving.

V b ij d 1 f

31.XII.2024

Esther Steier

Isreal’s laws sometimes are a first come first serve, why shouldn’t the religious advocate for laws that better effect them?

second, why should we be content with ppl preaching idolatry

third, The whole point is that we have our tanakh and we consider it the ultimate truth. We don’t need outsiders to tell us how to understand it. We study it and we know it. What does it matter if you make claims about it? Why would we care about your interpretations , you say it’s correct, but the fundamental beliefs of Christianity contradict what we follow. It’s unnecessary to even engage - why bother? Do you need to explore Islam or Mormonism in order to know that your faith is correct ?

Esther Steier

FYI tovia singer is simply explaining mainstream Judaism. This common knowledge in Judaism

it’s silly to imply that someone who disagrees with you is “dishonest”

you make your own statements seem disingenuous, why would you assume that someone who believes things contrary to your faith isn’t genuine in their beliefs

if I used that argument to you - you would dismiss what I say as well

Circumcision of the Lord

1.I.2025

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I’ll answer to at once.

“a first come first serve”

In fact, if a Christian Jew arrives today and you push him away and a Jewish Jew arrives tomorrow and can stay, you violate that principle.

“why should we be content with ppl preaching idolatry”

You idolise laws that lost their meaning when the Messiah arrived and their context when the temple was destroyed, as well as commentators who had rejected the true Messiah.

“we have our tanakh and we consider it the ultimate truth.”

Palestinian Christians have a full Bible of 73 books.

And they are Israelites and were in the Holy Land before a lot of you.

“Do you need to explore Islam or Mormonism in order to know that your faith is correct ?”

I need to know on what principle I reject them. Like you seem to imagine rejecting Christianity is a question of rejecting idolatry, I know that both of these accept the Gospel and both of these contradict the Gospel of Matthew chapter 28 the final verses 16–20. These say there can never be a break of the Church Jesus founded back then, and both Mohammed and Joseph Smith imagine there has been a break. Mohammed didn’t look up the text, Joseph Smith didn’t understand it.

“This common knowledge in Judaism”

OK, you first pretend Jesus Christ is irrelevant to Judaism, and then you admit Judaism has a position on Him.

“it’s silly to imply that someone who disagrees with you is “dishonest””

Oh, so I’m only allowed to spot and call out dishonesty in people who agree with me?

If you want examples of where I spotted dishonesty, he has one of the labels on a blog of mine:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere (label Tovia Singer)

“why would you assume that someone who believes things contrary to your faith isn’t genuine in their beliefs”

Being genuine in one’s beliefs isn’t enough. Were idolaters worshipping Baal genuine in their beliefs? Probably some were.

But again, I really had to call out the way Tovia misconstrues things.

“you would dismiss what I say as well”

I would probably prefer to answer it.

Esther Steier

A. I’m talking about why certain laws will likely get pushed for in isreal circus of politics, especially if not doing so will mean that the opposing side will pass laws that go against what one believes is moral

An either or, situation

(and I wasn’t actually talking about Aliyah laws - I was referring to laws that prohibit missionaries from proselytizing to minors and offering incentives ect)

B. That’s according to Christianity not Judaism.

you believe your beliefs are the truth we believe our beliefs are the truth - these two beliefs are contradictory towards one another. (As in they both can’t be true)

you consider our faith to not be following G-d and we consider your faith to not be following G-d

C. Obviously if one is not following the truth - they arnt following the truth. (Although we do believe G-d takes into account ones background of knowledge in life and one’s earnest desires to do good even if they end up following something they may be incorrect..) I am pointing out that calling someone dishonest is a cheap shot.

rabbi tuvia singer is talking about Judaism, his views and arguable reflective of Judaism. If he went against Judaism he would be called out for it. You disagree with Judaism. So of course you see his statements as incorrect and likely find the Jewish understanding of scripture to be “twisted” just like we see Christianity’s understanding of scripture as twisted.

for anyone who has a background in Judaism, his statements are very accurate and very straight forward.

D. your beliefs are not dependent on wether you agree with my response or not. That was my point. (I think, I’m losing track of the many points we are each making)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

A) “offering incentives”

This is interpreted in such ways that people who lose things over converting can’t be helped out decently by those they convert to.

B) Correct.

C) His dishonesty is when he’s speaking of Jesus.

D) Indeed. But my internet trade of Apologetics does depend on being able to answer things like that.

V b ij d 2

30.XII.2024

Esther Steier

Also I wasn’t talking about Aliyah - I was commenting on your rabbi comment

regardless I’ll rephrase my point:

The faith of Judaism is very different to the faith of Christianity. There are many many concepts that are simply incompatible with each other.

it seems (to me) that many Christians are unaware of this. And think that in order for Judaism to remain separate from Christianity there needs to be some sort effort to hide and twist Christianity so that it doesn’t seem palatable to Jews who practice Judaism.

31.XII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Hide and twist.

Noted.

Not just are you advocating underhand and dishonest and sectarian tactics, but you are even asking your government to do the dirty job for you, since about 1970.

Noted.

Esther Steier

I don’t really care about the Aliyah laws, never have.

my entire point was to make a comment about you saying we hear about j from our rabbis…

you made an assumption, perhaps I was being to vague in my initial reply, I will give you that.

I’m not familiar with all the technicalities of all the laws about missionizing and (what I think influencers more things in isreal) the dynamics of politics influencing religious policy.

regardless, the state of isreal isn’t representative of Judaism. If the laws were according to (orthodox) Judaism they would be far stricter.

I could play the same game and say you are deflecting from responding to my point too

Circumcision of the Lord

1.I.2025

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I wasn’t even accusing you of deflecting.

I was simply noting you found dishonest tactics (twisting and hiding) fair game when combatting Christianity.

Orthodox Judaism is a kind of idolatry, and if you tried to forbid Christianity according to that, God would intervene and defend them. If you did it world wide, God would intervene and defend us.

Esther Steier

Noted; I appreciate the clarification.

And I wasn’t saying it’s moral or not moral

I was commenting on the state of politics in isreal.

From a religious perspective; in a perfect world the world will function under the laws that G-d put forth in scripture. Of course there will also be direct communication with G-d and all of that so that there won’t be able to be corruption any the like

(this is what we believe messianic times will look like)

in a world without prophets and direct intervention from G-d, a world in which we are subject to the follies of men, democracy is something that G-d enabled in this world so that we arnt subject to the whims of monarchs.

of course this is not a perfect system and leaders still are pretty messed up…

But it has improved most ppls lives, especially when government has been separated from religion

Hans-Georg Lundahl

There have been heavy losses, like how abortion was made legal.

You may have felt the Czars as whimsical and cruel, but the ones under Habsburg rule (except one or two occasions in the 1400’s and the 1600’s) usually found them at least tolerable.

---

When trying to reach Rivon Krygier's synagogue Adath Shalom, to give him an opportunity to answer, I met this:

Le filtre anti-pourriel (anti-spam) installé sur ce site est actuellement indisponible. Nous ne pouvons accepter de nouvelles soumissions jusqu'à ce que le problème soit résolu. Essayez de soumettre à nouveau le formulaire dans quelques minutes.

It is symbolic of there being a rejection which is automatic rather than reflected. When I tried to consult the privacy policy, it timed out, conveniently too.

As to previously mentioned taking responsibility for one's results (as Mark Lipschitz might say), here is Jeremiah 10:23

I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.

And here the Challoner comment:

"The way of a man is not his": The meaning is, that notwithstanding man's free will, yet he can do no good without God's help, nor evil without his permission. So that, in the present case, all the evils which Nabuchodonosor was about to bring upon Jerusalem, could not have come but by the will of God.