More on Babel (and generally from Flood to Abraham)

Q I a

Is it possible that the pyramids were built shortly after the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-pyramids-were-built-shortly-after-the-Tower-of-Babel/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

just now

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

I would say there were a few centuries, the oldest pyramids coming in the time of Joseph, Sakkarah, 1700 sth BC (misdated c. 2600 BC), while Babel was a few centuries before the birth of Abraham.

So, with my recalibration of the carbon dates, it is not possible. It’s about 1000 years between these.

Citing own work here:

II - III, Babel

2607 B. Chr.
0.428224 pmC/100, so dated as 9607 B. Chr.
2585 B. Chr.
0.45483 pmC/100, so dated as 9085 B. Chr.
2562 B. Chr.
0.48134 pmC/100, so dated as 8612 B. Chr.

V - VI, Joseph to birth of Moses

1700 B. Chr.
0.87575 pmC/100, so dated as 2800 B. Chr.

New Tables (on Creation vs Evolution).
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

2562 BC to 1700 BC is 862 years, more than “shortly after”.

Q I b

Is it possible that the ancient Mayan pyramids may actually be older than the ancient Egyptian pyramids?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-ancient-Mayan-pyramids-may-actually-be-older-than-the-ancient-Egyptian-pyramids/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Marc Bloemers

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

I would say not. They have carbon dates of associated material and these are definitely less old than the Ancient Egyptian carbon dates associated with pyramids.

Mesoamerican pyramids - Wikipedia

Q II

How come the civilization break period after Noah's flood was not recorded in History. They were all dead and the recovery would take thousand years or so. So why wasn't this huge disruption recorded. I am sure it wasn't missed by history recorders?
https://www.quora.com/How-come-the-civilization-break-period-after-Noahs-flood-was-not-recorded-in-History-They-were-all-dead-and-the-recovery-would-take-thousand-years-or-so-So-why-wasnt-this-huge-disruption-recorded-I-am-sure-it-wasnt/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

just now

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Whole question: "How come the civilization break period after Noah's flood was not recorded in History. They were all dead and the recovery would take thousand years or so. So why wasn't this huge disruption recorded. I am sure it wasn't missed by history recorders?"

Now, let's break this down a bit:

"How come the civilization break period after Noah's flood was not recorded in History."

It partly was : Genesis 9:2 kind of says all mankind for a while would be hunter-gatherers.

And while Genesis 10:9 primarily refers to Nimrod's slave hunting talents of recruiting for projects, it probably also refers to his hunting a lot of mammuths before starting that.

"They were all dead and the recovery would take thousand years or so."

Actually, the recovery, if not of metallurgy, at least of agriculture and larger architecture was happening at "Tower of Babel" - 350 - 401 years after the Flood, to recent archaeology known as Göbekli Tepe. Metallurgy took a little longer.

"So why wasn't this huge disruption recorded. I am sure it wasn't missed by history recorders?"

It was recorded orally about the things that mattered. This fairly small collection of fairly short oral tales in Genesis 2 to 11 ...

6078 Words (or 5337 if we exclude Genesis 1 as added by Moses)

... was transmitted through fairly few generations (see Genesis 11 for those up to Abraham, then add Isaac, Jacob, Joseph) before one can count on it being very definitely already available in writing too.

Meanwhile, non-Hebrews were not history recorders prior to Joseph.

Hint : Joseph came to Egypt some time before 1700 BC, but the coffin of his pharao Djoser is carbon dated to 2800 / 2600 BC.

We have no narrative texts with that age in carbon dated chronology.

Q III

Noah's flood which took place 5,000 years ago according to the Bible must have removed all civilizations on the Earth. Does that explain why the written history of any place over the world is not older than 5,000 years?
https://www.quora.com/Noahs-flood-which-took-place-5-000-years-ago-according-to-the-Bible-must-have-removed-all-civilizations-on-the-Earth-Does-that-explain-why-the-written-history-of-any-place-over-the-world-is-not-older-than-5-000/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Mon

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Actually, no writings are, on written materials found and deciphered, even that old.

Proto-literary (in Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian) became literary around carbon dated 2600 BC or after - which corresponds to real date c. 1700 BC (Joseph in Egypt).

Q IV

Is there any plausible explanation for the absurdly long lifespans of the biblical patriarchs such as Shem and Methuselah?
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-plausible-explanation-for-the-absurdly-long-lifespans-of-the-biblical-patriarchs-such-as-Shem-and-Methuselah/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

That by now we have absurdly short lifespans compared to the first men.

In Genesis 11, after the Babel account, the genealogy of Shem, which on LXX readings without or with “second Cainan” span 942 or 1070 years up to Abraham’s birth, we see lifespans dwindling.

It so happens, this exact period is when carbon 14 levels on my view went up so much, that 2957 BC (without second Cainan) or Flood is misdated to c. 40 000 or 35 000 BP, while 80 year old Abraham in 1935 BC was contemporary (Genesis 14) to an evacuation of En Gedi which is misdated to 3500 BC.

This means, carbon 14 was being produced 9.66 times faster than now.

At the same time, the same cosmic radiation, would also give a higher level of radiation on ground level, (milliSieverts per year), than now, which would have contributed to making human genes less suitable for a long life and therefore radically changed our lifespan to the shorter.

Q V

Catholic Apologetics : How did someone know to write down everything in the Garden Of Eden regarding Adam and Eve?
https://www.quora.com/q/catholicapologetics/How-did-someone-know-to-write-down-everything-in-the-Garden-Of-Eden-regarding-Adam-and-Eve?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1h ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

How did someone know to write down everything in the Garden Of Eden regarding Adam and Eve?

What is there to know of Adam and Eve in Eden?

Genesis 2[1] and Genesis 3[2]

How long are these texts? I think they are sufficiently short for learning by heart to be very plausible:

6078 Words (and that’s from ch 1 to ch 11).

I also think systems of writing may have existed and then been lost:

... on Genevieve von Petzinger's 32 late palaeolithic signs

Footnotes

[1] Douay-Rheims Bible
[2] Douay-Rheims Bible

Scott Johnson

53m ago

What are you actually saying? Why is a text’s brevity an indicator of plausibility? An unknown system of writing lost when? Around Adam and Eve’s frolic? Please include your reasoning, not links that I and probably most rational people won’t want to be bothered with.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

48m ago

Brevity or verse are two ways in which oral texts are faithfully transmitted.

Unknown is false and I give links I think rational people WOULD rationally want to look up if interested in the question - look them up, then come back.

Q VI

own answer

How much of the Bible actually happened?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-the-Bible-actually-happened/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Quora Question Details Bot

August 8, 2017

The answerers will probably be religious themselves, and so am I, but please give an objective explanation.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1h ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Out of 1184 chapters, 680 are history, other genres, for remaining 504 chapters, are prophecy, instruction, law etc.

Note, I have given five books of Moses as “history” rather than law in this context.

So 680 chapters (or somewhat fewer in Moses, but some more in Isaiah) claim something happened and it did happen.

504 chapters (or somewhat fewer in Isaiah, but somewhat more in Moses) don’t deal with claims about what happened.

Q VI

other answer

How much of the Bible actually happened?
https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-the-Bible-actually-happened/answer/James-Hough-1

This question previously had details. They are now in a comment. (see above)

Answer requested by

Max Barnett

James Hough

September 6, 2015

Catholic who teaches Catechism, RCIA, and Prayer classes.

Originally Answered: How much of the bible actually happened?
I'm making an assumption here that you actually meant: "How much of the Bible actually happened as is presented?" Catholicism teaches the the entire Bible is inerrant, that it is all true, but what you are asking depends a lot on how you understand it.

Let's take a really obvious example: In the parables, Our Blessed Lord is telling stories to make a point. For instance, the story about the wedding feast thrown by the King: none of his invited guests show up, so he sends his servants out into the streets to round people up for the wedding feast, and then throws some poor slob out because he doesn't have a wedding garment. This is a parable, it tells a story to make a point, did the story actually happen? Of course not. The King is god, the invited guests were the Jews, those he rounds up and invites in are the gentiles. The slob without a wedding garment is a man with no good works.

In the first couple chapters of Genesis, there are two different accounts of creation, which actually vary a great deal. How can there be two different accounts of the same happening and that differ in what happened? Easy: the point of the both stories is that God created everything out of nothing. The point is exactly the same in both stories.

Some things are matters of faith, in other words, the Church has said that they actually happened, and we must believe that they happened this way: God created a man and a woman out of nothing and they are the ancestors of every single human being living on the planet earth - that is the point of the story as they sinned, and no longer could hand on original justice to us. I.E. we are in need of a savior, and we are God's creations, made to know Him, love Him, and serve Him.

The Bible says (in the first account) that everything was created in six days. Does this mean that everything happened in six twenty-four hour periods and that the earth is only 5,000 years old? Of course not, first of all, the sun and the earth were not created in the first few "days" so they could hardly be twenty-four hour periods of the sun revolving around the earth. Is the earth only 5,000 years old? Of course not, we know from geology and such that the earth is much older, but 1) the Bible is not trying to teach us the history of geometry, and 2) the terms used are indefinite, a thousand years means (to the ancient Hebrew mind) a really long time, NOT 1000 units of 365 days.

All of the Bible actually happened, but you must interpret each story according to the mind of the Church, in the genre in which it was written.

I commented twice

I and II

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thu

“The Bible says (in the first account) that everything was created in six days. Does this mean that everything happened in six twenty-four hour periods and that the earth is only 5,000 years old?”

Blooper, it was 5199 years old and some when Christ was born.

Yes, it means that.

“Of course not, …” confer “according to the mind of the Church,”

There is no sense whatsoever in doing anything according to the mind of the Church, unless it’s according to the mind of God. That means, you are obliged to what a credible bishop tells you was revealed before St. John ceased to live his earthly life, you are not obliged to what happens to be a personal opinion which he might happen to share with an entire bishops’ conference or most of it.

“first of all, the sun and the earth were not created in the first few "days" so they could hardly be twenty-four hour periods of the sun revolving around the earth.”

They could be 24 hour periods of hemispheres of light and darkness revolving around earth. That’s what St. Augustine taught in first book of De Genesi ad Litteram libri XII (while he proposes a one moment creation theory later on in books V and VI).

“Is the earth only 5,000 years old? Of course not, we know from geology and such that the earth is much older”

We know? Do you?

“from geology and such”

In other words, you are referring to someone else who is supposed to know.

“ 1) the Bible is not trying to teach us the history of geometry,”

I don’t see what history of geometry has to do with it. 680 chapters of Douay Rheims (with a rough and ready division, counting all of Moses and David, none if Isaiah as history) and that includes Genesis 5 and 11, are teaching history.

“2) the terms used are indefinite, a thousand years means (to the ancient Hebrew mind) a really long time, NOT 1000 units of 365 days.”

No single item of those adding up to 5199 years BC according to St. Jerome’s calculation, based on Julius the African is set in that indefinite term “a thousand years”. Adam was 130 or 230 (230 for 5199 in Roman martyrology) when Seth was born. 130 years means 130 * 365 or 130 * 365.2425 days, and 230 years means 230 times 365 or 365.2425 days. Unless the pre-Flood years were 364 days long …

James Hough

Fri

Hi Mr. Lundahl,

We are not to approach the Bible like some kind of Calculus text! We are to look for the spiritual truths which it imparts. To try and parse out time like this is to mutilate the Bible into something it was never intended to be.

Pax,
James

Hans-Georg Lundahl

13m ago

You have just accused St. Jerome of Stridon of mutilating the Bible.

It’s his (partly based on Julius the African’s) calculus, which via the Historia Scholastica made its way into the Martyrology used at Rome, 15th C printed version, while it was still Usuard and not yet Pope Gregory XIII’s Roman Martyrology.

Similarily, while Georgios Synkellos or George Syncellus is not a canonised saint, his Biblical chronology has not the least been condemned and saw a Latin translation in 19th C. Paris, with Imprimatur.

Your kind of daintiness just is not Catholic.

“We are to look for the spiritual truths which it imparts.”

The Bible has four senses - literal, allegoric, moral and anagogic.

The latter three are called spiritual senses, but we get them by being attentive to the first, the literal, sense. Including its mathematical aspects.

Update:

James Hough

10h ago

I rest my case.

Update II

This comment

has been deleted

18h ago

[It included my link to this post. Previous comments in the dialogue were also deleted.]

James Hough

18h ago

Hi Mr. Lundahl,

You have just gone one step too far.

Pax,
James

II

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thu

“In the first couple chapters of Genesis, there are two different accounts of creation, which actually vary a great deal. How can there be two different accounts of the same happening and that differ in what happened?”

One account of Adam’s and Eve’s creation is given in an overall panorama of the six days.

One is given as a story as it was experienced by them (plus immediate prequels to Adam being conscious).

For “animals created after Adam” the options are:

• no, LXX says, “God, having created … brought them fourth”
• God made an extra example of each so Adam could watch Him create.

James Hough

Fri

Hi Mr. Lundahl,

Unfortunately, I am not an Old Testament scholar and truly do not want to get bogged down in the minutiae of the differing accounts of creation.

Pax,
James

Hans-Georg Lundahl

17m ago

I think “chapter 1 gives an overview and chapter 2 gives the details of man’s creation” is far more useful than tiny minutiae, it’s obvious common sense.

Pretending the accounts differ as to giving a contradiction rather than just a variation in view point is obviously an attack on Biblical inerrancy, as it has always been seen by the Church.

Why don’t you check what Haydock has to say, since his comments were meant for all faithful, and not just for OT scholars? You know, George Leo, Catholic priest, made the most used English Bible comment in a Bible featuring both texts and his comments (mostly taken from earlier commenters, but he added some himself).

Q VII

Could Mesopotamia have been settled directly after the events at the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/q/catholicapologetics/Could-Mesopotamia-have-been-settled-directly-after-the-events-at-the-Tower-of-Babel-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

20h ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Could Mesopotamia have been settled directly after the events at the Tower of Babel?

If you mean classic Sumerian and Akkadian Babylonia with Akkadian Assyria, and you ask me as per my calibrations, no.

Tower of Babel is Göbekli Tepe, its end is carbon dated to 8600 BC in the real year around the birth of Peleg 401 years after the Flood that happened in 2957.

Carbon dates for classic Ur in pre-fully-literate form or proto-literate form are c. 4000 BC, meaning the real dates would be around birth or youth of an Abraham born in 2015 BC.

Then, of course, I could be lining up carbon dates and Biblical real dates wrong, but this is not exactly the point in asking me, if you want that argued, you ask someone else.

If however you mean Mesopotamia in general, Göbekli Tepe being in North West Mesopotamia (aka Assyria), Mesopotamia was settled during, not after the events in Genesis 11:1–9.

For matches with Genesis 10, here is a tentative line up: Lining up Cities.

Q VIII

Are the descendants of Cain largely a forgotten race?
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-descendants-of-Cain-largely-a-forgotten-race/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

20h ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

I think they are remembered in the Mahabharata. In more detail than in Genesis 4 and partly Genesis 6, that is.

I think “Bharat” is a conflation of Cainite Henoch (city founder) and of Sethite Henoch (raptured up). I think Pandu could be based on Jabel, and the exile of Pandavas in the forest based on an exile into a pastoral nomadic existence “who was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of herdsmen.”

I think Krishna could be based on Jubal “he was the father of them that play upon the harp and the organs.” The latter word meaning basically pan flutes and Krishna is considered a flute player.

I think the Kauravas could be based on sons of Tubal-Cain.

I think Regma, soon after the Flood, settled closer and closer to modern India (which is clearly East of Eden, as is probably Persia) and also carried with him the Cainite stories from before the Flood.

Q IX

Did the Nephilim help create Stonehenge and its designs?
https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Nephilim-help-create-Stonehenge-and-its-designs/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

19m ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

Not the pre-Flood nephelim, since Stonehenge, if my identification is correct, is after Babel (I take this as Göbekli Tepe).

Whether one should call the post-Flood giants nephelim or not and whether such were involved in Stonehenge, I don’t know, and I think Stonehenge is inferior to the previous Göbekli Tepe, so as to design, it was very well within human possibilities.

Q X

Let's say Adam and his descendants were real and live for hundred years, why is there no great civilization contributed to them?
https://www.quora.com/Lets-say-Adam-and-his-descendants-were-real-and-live-for-hundred-years-why-is-there-no-great-civilization-contributed-to-them/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

8m ago

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

As to Cain’s kin, it seems to be the real life background - with cultural updates to post-Flood India - of Mahabharata.

People at the same time living basically as Amerindians would have been very typical of Neanderthals and Denisovans, and also some Cro-Magnon who hanged around them. Let’s say this wasn’t Noah’s basic ancestral culture any more than Natty Bumppo’s, but he knew his way around there.

That’s how the early post-Flood centuries before recovery of big civilisation at Babel / Göbekli Tepe became the Late Palaeolithic.