First Half of a Video on the Shroud, with Polite and Less Polite Comments

Video, first half of which is now, over more than one session, watched:

New Evidence for the Shroud of Turin w/ Fr. Andrew Dalton
Pints With Aquinas, 6 Jan. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAbuG-oVq1Q

Own comments, all of which are, I hope, polite:

31:32 No, faith and reason are not two different things that complement each other.

Faith and infidelity (negative or privative) are two opposed qualities that reason can have.

40:14 It's not 12 protons, it's 6 protons and 6 neutrons.
Carbon 14 has 6 protons and 8 neutrons, so extra neutrons.

The Cambridge halflife is 5730 years.

Time implications according to that halflife have ontological differences - what is due to the actual time since the sample ceased breathing in carbon dioxide (if a plant) or consuming carbon (from plants or from meat having consumed plants)? What is due to the original carbon content having another carbon 14 level than 100 pmC?

The first of these, as the overall time implication of what could be called "raw carbon date" is purely mathematical. You know what the square root of a half is? 70.7 %. A sample starting out with 100 pmC will reach 70.7 pmC in what time? What time section corresponds to a square root in the percentage? Half a halflife. 5730 / 2 = 2865 years.

The second is empirical, and for generalities over a period from which we have samples is called calibration.

I accept calibrations offered by scientists for the last 3000 years, but before Troy and back to the Flood, I do my own.

40:25 No, not 5370, but 5730 years.

42:33 How precise?
2000 years -> 78.511 pmC
78.511 pmC -> 2000 +/- 10

This is taken from the Carbon 14 calculator, which ignores calibrations.

46:11 Can Sir Arthur have reused the same line more than once?

1:17:20 "It's not the same as peer reviewed scientific articles"

O ... K ....

I was at a Greek Institution in Lund. Latin and Antiquities too, I had already done most of Latin and have kept that up better since.

B U T - a Jewish sth (forget which organisation) was donating a fairly expensive CD-ROM with all of Migne or at least of all of Patrologia Graeca in Migne to the institution.

Just at that time, the Greek professor started giving hints that "parthenos" does not always mean Virgin.

Theotoke Parthene, Khaire!

It means Virgin. That it had latitude beyond the primary meaning doesn't prove the opposite.

Less (?) drastic example, if you like.

Look at how many Institutions get funded by Carnegie.

Then look up the outlook of Carnegie.

Now, ask yourself once again, is Carnegie possibly in part responsible for Darwinism getting the upper hand at institutions?

I mean both the original philanthropist and his fund or foundation which is still around.

1:24:35 The VP-8 is what I recall most from a programme I saw in Austria in 1978 or so.

1:25:53 This was noted by Chesterton in The Everlasting Man.

They took the body down from the cross and one of the few rich men among the first Christians obtained permission to bury it in a rock tomb in his garden; the Romans setting a military guard lest there should be some riot and attempt to recover the body. There was once more a natural symbolism in these natural proceedings; it was well that the tomb should be sealed with all the secrecy of ancient eastern sepulture and guarded by the authority of the Caesars. For in that second cavern the whole of that great and glorious humanity which we call antiquity was gathered up and covered over; and in that place it was buried. It was the end of a very great thing called human history; the history that was merely human. The mythologies and the philosophies were buried there, the gods and the heroes and the sages. In the great Roman phrase, they had lived. But as they could only live, so they could only die; and they were dead.

On the third day the friends of Christ coming at daybreak to the place found the grave empty and the stone rolled away. In varying ways they realised the new wonder; but even they hardly realised that the world had died in the night. What they were looking at was the first day of a new creation, with a new heaven and a new earth; and in a semblance of the gardener God walked again in the garden, in the cool not of the evening but the dawn.

Debate:

Mel Carter

This CANNOT be the grave cloth of Christ and the Bible tells us so.
There was more than one item of grave clothing and Christ’s head was wrapped in a separate piece of cloth than that of His body.
John 20:3-7 KJVS
[3] Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. [4] So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. [5] And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. [6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, [7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
I believe the word of God.
These relics have become idols. It is said that there are enough supposed splinters of the cross in circulation to build the Ark.

Beverly Hurd

You sound quite ill informed. As many millions of us know, the facecloth that covered Jesus' head is in Spain where it has been for the last 1200 or more years. It is known as the Sudarium of Oviedo.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"there are enough supposed splinters of the cross in circulation to build the Ark."

Calvin, the infidel, made such a comment, I think.

A French Antiquarian catalogued all the known splinter relics, being careful to not include the volume of the caskets in the addition, and his result was c. 1/5 or the probable original volume of the Cross. Unlike Calvin, he remained in the Church that Christ founded.

Beverly Hurd

@Mel Carter What does that have to do with the Shroud of Turin?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Mel Carter Yeah, nothing that says that the napkin was not under a sindone.

Again, what is your point in citing Scriptures that you don't understand correctly?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Beverly Hurd He probably imagines a gravecloth ending at the neck, leaving it naked, and a napkin separately covering the head, that's not what it says, but ...

@Beverly Hurd If you meant my comment, I was satisfied with your answer on the sindone, but you left his attack on the cross relic unanswered.

Other debate:

Timothy J

The major objection wasn't covered. The image on the cloth is a man with of height over 5'10". They say people in Palestine around 30 AD had an average height of 5'3". I would love to see that addressed.

And for those who say they are Christ followers, no human or institution can condemn you to hell or allow you into Heaven. That is God's power alone. If anyone tries to convince you otherwise they are teaching a doctrine of demons.

The Loner

Here you go. Search for: man on shroud apollonius of tyana

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Average means there are the ones above and below the value, what was your point?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@The Loner "man on shroud apollonius of tyana"

The major theological objection first. This does not explain why the Church honours Jesus and not Apollonius.

Second, the book was written by one Robert Traylor Russell who took the name Rob Solarion and also wrote a book called Osiris, Isis and Planet X, and who died in 2010.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"no human or institution can condemn you to hell or allow you into Heaven."

In some sense, yes. Unless you want to call Christ Himself a demon. He told Peter he was getting the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and on Easter Day in the Evening, He told the 10 disciples (minus Judas who had betrayed, and minus Thomas who simply wasn't there that night and turned up later) these words:

Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Before you reply that was just those guys, no one else after them, watch this:

And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

As "doctrines of demons" were mentioned:

-=NFlight=- Entertainment

Yeah... this guy is full of it. And he sounds gay. a gay priest?

Beverly Hurd

Wishful thinking on your part?

-=NFlight=- Entertainment

@Beverly Hurd Of course! Its the catholic way!

Lynn

There's a name for people like you and it's called 'Scoffer'!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

This so reminds me why people stamped as gay should not be barred from marriage.

People with your doctrine of the demon from Delphi, your doctrine of a Pythonic spirit, are all too prone to stamp people as gay.

-=NFlight=- Entertainment

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Do you realize everything you just typed is false?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@-=NFlight=- Entertainment So, I said, "people stamped as gay should not be barred from marriage" and you called that (among other things) false, i e you think people who for some reason are stamped as gay should be barred from marriage.

I said marriage and not "gay marriage" so I am referring to marriage by the criteria of Mark 10:6.

You think people stamped as gay should be prevented from that?

Well, the exact one item in the NT where "doctrines of devils" is mentioned, is 1 Tim 4, and in context this includes barring people from marriage.

So, no, I don't think I am exaggerating when I consider your take as doctrines of devils.

Especially as you are prone to stamp people as gay (like Fr Dalton) with no evidence except your gaydar, which is about as good evidence as the word of the Pythia in Delphi.

One more:

Alan Hembra

Shroud of Turin is fake. Catholic Church is the biggest criminal cartel in the world. I bet it will be surprising to see all those pops burning in hell.

Beverly Hurd

Man! Does morbid stupidity run in your family? I bet it does! Get help soon! Wow. Wow wow wow wow.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Beverly Hurd I think you are at odds with Pope Pius XI Casti Connubii, which condemned Eugenics ...

If psychiatry is a criminal cartel, what would you call some very recent Catholics who cooperate with it?