We Have the Universe We Observe

Why Didn't Anybody Tell Me?
philhellenes | 24 Oct. 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyjNXdEGjO4

Jammsbro

@Jammsbro1

I remember the moment I became an atheist after 20 years of religion. I was standing in work, it was 1:22 on a Monday afternoon and after two years of difficult questions and thoughts it suddenly came over me like a wave, it can all happen without any god. It was the most profound moment in my life.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

I remember one night awake after a discussion, night to 24th August 2001, when I realised God could do the Universe THAT WE SEE without any Heliocentrism or ultramechanism.

Key concept : if angels can move stars (if they exist, by definition they can) how do I know the "parallax" and "annual aberration" of alpha Centauri (a movement of c. 20 arc seconds overall and 0.76 arc seconds compared to other stars around it back and forth each year) is only a double optical illusion due to Earth moving? I don't. Ergo, Earth need not be moving!

I

jursamaj

@jursamaj

@hglundahl 2 problems with the "God could have done that" argument:

1. Since God is defined as omnipotent, God could have done anything any way. That doesn't explain anything.

2. If all the evidence we see leads us to false conclusions, and that evidence is supplied by God, that makes God a massive liar. That's hardly a being worthy of worship.

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Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jursamaj 1) For moving a star, even an angel is adequate (though God's the one moving heaven around earth each day).

2) The evidence doesn't "lead" per se to false conclusions, it leads some people to false conclusions through their false preconceptions. Does NOT make God or His angels liars.

Kasperi

@khakala97

@hglundahl God being omnipotent, omnipresent and loving, she would obviously make it so that NO ONE who loves him would be led astray.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 Those who are in a state of grace, that is truly love God, do get a protection.

Most do not. That's where the protection is denied.

Kasperi

@hglundahl even if that was true, none would ever know if they were the ones chosen. That is ultimately a waste of time.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 We are, usually, excepting personal privilege, not meant to know in this life if we are the chosen ones.

We are meant to long for heaven and fear hell.

Kasperi

@hglundahl you will one day not be able to realize you wasted all your days wishing for a divine dictator's favouritism to be towards you. The longer you hold these beliefs, the harder it is to stop throwing your life away. Good luck, keep an open mind! Best wishes.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 I have my life de facto in more than one way wasted - not by my religion, but by people like you, trying to keep me back from making my money as a writer for my religion, and trying to keep me generally in a position of inferiority, as long as I refuse to apostasise.

But suppose I were wrong - and I'm not - at least I have lived a more fun life than some of you, like one ex-Pentecostal now atheist and now wasting his life an sucking up to his shrinks.

@khakala97 Not to mention the guys wasting their lives on masks, tests and other paraphernalia of Covid restrictions ... your profile picture just reminded me ...

Kasperi

@hglundahl and now I have a little less hope for you than before this comment

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 I'd prefer people like you having no such hope at all.

Kasperi

@hglundahl it is sad that the only way for you to realize what I mean is to open your mind, and every comment pushes you away from being open to new ideas. This is unproductive, bye!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 Oh, you are leaving - is that a promise?

By the way, Heliocentrism and Evolution are not new ideas to me, they are in my biography old errors I got out of.

Kasperi

@hglundahl oh no constant regression. Soon your knowledge will match your world view - a bronze age one!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 Indeed, no constant regression ongoing ... or did you miss a comma or exclamation mark after "oh no" perhaps?

If you pretend someone should be ashamed of a bronze age world view, how about reading a post entitled "Bronze Age, the New Slur" on a blog entitled "Φιλολoγικά/Philologica" - it is from nearly nine and a half years ago, and some of you still don't learn that referring to early parts of the Bible as from the Bronze Age doesn't in the least make me ashamed of them.

Kasperi

@hglundahl it is sad that the only way for you to realize what I mean is to open your mind, and every comment pushes you away from being open to new ideas. This is unproductive, bye!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 Oh, you are leaving - is that a promise?

By the way, Heliocentrism and Evolution are not new ideas to me, they are in my biography old errors I got out of.

Kasperi

@hglundahl oh no constant regression. Soon your knowledge will match your world view - a bronze age one!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@khakala97 Indeed, no constant regression ongoing ... or did you miss a comma or exclamation mark after "oh no" perhaps?

If you pretend someone should be ashamed of a bronze age world view, how about reading a post entitled "Bronze Age, the New Slur" on a blog entitled "Φιλολoγικά/Philologica" - it is from nearly nine and a half years ago, and some of you still don't learn that referring to early parts of the Bible as from the Bronze Age doesn't in the least make me ashamed of them.

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TradyAch

@TradyAch_Yo

@hglundahl - “…without any Heliocentrism or ultramechanism.” > Those are not real terms people use in mainstream physics or philosophy; nor are they actually real words to begin with. There are only heliocentric, and I have never once heard a person utter ‘ultramechanism’ until now, do you mean physicalism instead? Scientists don’t add the ‘ism’ at the end of Heliocentric — because it’s only an adjective, not a theory.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@TradyAch_Yo Heliocentrism is a theory.

I can agree ultramechanism could be called physicalism. It's probably better rendered in English as ultramechanicism.

What I realised is, God could do without both and therefore we have the universe we actually directly observe.