Declining an "Offer" from Recovering from Religion

How to Stop Being a Christian in 2021!! (4 Simple Steps)
5th Feb. 2021 | Paulogia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79a3jSJ2qg4

Steps 1 and 2 (intellectual), refuted in detail. Steps 3 and 4 (not intellectual), dismissed as irrelevant to "my case" as they would say, both of these under XIV.

I

in dialogue

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1:24 " Accordingly, when a star rose in heaven at the time of His birth, as is recorded in the memoirs of His apostles, the Magi from Arabia, recognising the sign by this, came and worshipped Him."

If St. John was a Cohen and one of the 70 [72], rather than one of the twelve, St. Matthew's Gospel is the only one which could have as alternative title "memoirs of His apostles" (supposing St. Justin restricted the usage to the twelve).

It is also possible that St. Justin lived in a Church which at the time had only one Gospel or only three, excluding St. John.

This is therefore inconclusive as against authorship of St. Matthew.

1:37 You speak of "they" but you are not really showing examples beyond St. Justin.

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Kundahl Sorry, I tried. I cannot make any sense of this in the context of this video. A source for the opening quote would, of course, help.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Are you sure it's at 1:37?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson No, it's arguably at 1:27

I see subtitles saying "these gospels they don't use any names at all sure looks like someone"

My bad. Anyway, who except St. Justin is "they"?

II

dialogue

Hans-Georg Lundahl

1:53 You give actual arguments why some of these are pseudepigrapha!

Like, could it be, I and II Timothy and Titus use St. Paul's name - according to your source - because the "real Paul" (same qualification) wouldn't have has as hierarchic a Church yet? That's one Liberal Protestant and Anti-Catholic move ... (just as Marcan priority).

Now, would you have anything like an actual non-ideological argument?

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Kundahl Oh dear! The Pastorals are clearly NOT Pauline. "Mark" clearly predates "Matthew" and "Luke". The first book in the bible is called Genesis.

All of these are not arguments. They are accepted facts based upon sound evidence. The ideology is yours alone and I guess it is of the literalistic persuasion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson No, they are not facts, however much they be accepted.

Marcan priority has first been argued in favour of Matthew because he reflected a later more hierarchic church. Calling pastorals non-Pauline has exactly same motive. In other words, guess work about how the earliest Church actually functioned. Which is properly speaking an ideology.

"The first book in the bible is called Genesis."

What is this supposed to answer?

III

in dialogue

Hans-Georg Lundahl

2:11 Elohist, Yahwist, Deuteronomist and good luck to name all of them ...

For Genesis, I'd give Adam, Noah, Peleg or Heber, Abraham, and a few more documenting their lives (from Abraham on with writing, chapters get longer) until Moses collected all in one book adding his vision of the creation days.

But for the other four, excluding death chapters of Deuteronomy, we deal with Moses and Moses alone.

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Lundahl I'd add the Priestly source P to your E, J and D. However, Wellhausen's documentary hypothesis has been challenged recently as too simplistic. Multi-sources and multi-redactions now seem to fit the available (and still growing) evidence.

However, you seem to think Wellhausen was TOO complex. In your reconstruction, all the patriarchs simply kept diaries (a tough job for Noah in particular, and I'm thinking of what happened AFTER the flood!) Then Moses (the murderer) apparently acted as collector and editor, using conveniently granted visionary skills to scribe the two conflicting versions of creation found in Genesis 1 and 2.

Two versions? Well, a cynic might suggest he hadn't learnt Noah's lesson about booze, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Even then, special pleading has to be invoked to bypass Deuteronomy 34. However, if you allow just this ONE redaction by a later scribe, you must also allow the possibility of others, exactly as Wellhausen and all subsequent critical scholarship have done.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson The versions in Genesis 1 and 2 are not conflicting.

I am not speaking of diaries, I am speaking of dictating short oral texts, for Genesis 2 to 11 (while Genesis 1 is a vision by Moses). From Abraham to Joseph, diaries and the beduin tribe collecting them is clearly possible.

"special pleading has to be invoked to bypass Deuteronomy 34. However, if you allow just this ONE redaction by a later scribe"

I'd not qualify Joshua as a "later scribe".

There are probably real redactions by later scribes, as linguistic updates or even changes of place names or added comments relating to later events.

But as these were made by priests, they were authorised by Moses and did not jeopardise the integrity of his authorship.

IV

in dialogue

Hans-Georg Lundahl

2:33 No, the pre-Jesus books were definitely written before.

Otherwise, how do you explain that Jews consider them as holy writing rather than as Christian pseudepigrapha?

(Jews on the other hand do pretend the fulfilments given in NT are spurious ones).

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Lundahl I think you missed the point here. Paulogia is referring to the early CHRISTIAN writings which were all (naturally!) post Jesus.

None of the OT authors mention a "Joshua, who is to come". "The biblical Old Testament never speaks of an eschatological messiah, and even the “messianic” passages that contain prophecies of a future golden age under an ideal king never use the term messiah" (Britannica.com) Nor do they add a name!

"Matthew" in particular gleefully quote mined the Tanakh for anything to bolster JC's Messianic credentials. (For instance, count how many times, and where, the name Immanuel appears in the Bible).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson Look here, he actually did mention precisely the prophecies of the OT. If not, go back to the time signature where he says early Christian authors.

Now, I see the video without headphones and with subtitles, but I do rely on subtitles being reasonably correct and not leaving out words.

So, step back on your claim on what he said, or show the time signature of where he said it!

That Messiah - as an epithet common to king, priest and prophet - is a fitting and before Christianity traditional designation of a character the prophecies refer to but do not literally name so is not too surprising.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 7:14]

"And shall pass through Juda, overflowing, and going over shall reach even to the neck. And the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Emmanuel."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 8:8]

"Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
[Matthew 1:23]

Alan Thompson

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Well done for locating the three (count them!) uses of Immanuel. This is the classic example of proto-Christian quote mining in support of the "JC is the Messiah!" message.

The context in Isaiah 7 is absolutely clear and very parochial. King Ahaz rejects Isaiah's offer of a prophecy but gets one anyway. In the Hebrew it is (a) in the present tense and (b) refers to a young woman, thus: "a young woman (known to Ahaz) is pregnant". By the time her son is old enough to tell right from wrong, Ahaz's troubles will have vanished. God has spoken, so there! (Modern summary by yours truly, but go look).

This probably historical event was already 700 years in the past when "Matthew" used it. Educated and writing in koine Greek, he no doubt knew that gods were often "born of a virgin", so the mistranslation of Hebrew Almah (young woman) into Greek Parthenos (virgin) in his source document would naturally have caught his attention.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson Two things.

• 1) St. Matthew was using this as an example of how Christ, after the Resurrection, went over all in the law and prophets that concerned him (which according to another answer of His is all there is in them or the main gist)
• 2) the existence of that parochial affair 700 years earlier is not the least an objection to Messianity of prophecy
• 3) Virgin is not a mistranslation.
• 4) "Educated and writing in koine Greek, he no doubt knew that gods were often 'born of a virgin' " Reference in real Greek myth, not from Zeitgeist, please!

V

in clarifying response

Hans-Georg Lundahl

2:50 sth "these problems, that anyone can observe"

On the contrary, most of what you said is:

• highly academically abstruse, inaccessible to common man in direct ways
• who is taking the word of experts on trust
• when in fact other experts of other schools disagree.

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Lundahl Pardon?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson You are not in a position, if you are a bus driver, or a fisherman, to know beyond trust in experts that the problems with authorship really are there.

And Paulogia refuses to disclose there is counterexpertise on that one.

VI

in dialogue

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3:28 Yes, not going into detail when it comes to supposed Bible contradictions is actually your B E S T strategy.

Until someone notices it ...

Alan Thompson

Hans-Georg Lundahl Are you trying to deny that "the bewildering lists" don't exist? Or does the word "contradiction" have a special meaning in this one context?

Like, and just as a single instance, how many women went to find the empty tomb? Was it one, two, three or some? All four gospels clearly CONTRADICT each other on this (hardly insignificant!) point.

This fact is easily explained by the multiple authorship hypothesis, which is happily accepted by the vast majority of believers. It's only the loony literalists who, imagining some kind of inerrant celestial dictation/inspiration, are thereby forced into trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Paulogia has an excellent strategical reason to skip the details (video length!) but what's yours? I've "noticed" that you fail to justify your snide comment in any way.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson "Was it one, two, three or some?"

Those who mention one are not denying three. Therefore, no contradiction.

Yeah, I was aware of that, as also of how many angels ...

@Alan Thompson "Paulogia has an excellent strategical reason to skip the details (video length!) but what's yours?"

I'm counting on either him or someone like you - in this case you - to give specifics, so I can concentrated on one or two or three supposed contradictions.

Going into all I know, I have a combox length limit (4000 characters?). Plus rely on my adversaries for memory!

Alan Thompson

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Pure equivocation! One =/= two =/= three =/= some. This, and the angels, did not seem to concern the 4th C Council which fixed the NT canon. No one there could have been a literalist like you. I wonder where your particular heresy crept in. Quite recently I would guess.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl You could of course click Paulogia's icon and go look at some of his longer videos yourself. BTW I'm still waiting for an answer, not an excuse.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Alan Thompson "One =/= two =/= three =/= some."

Fine, if any Gospel had said there was only one or exactly two, that would contradict three.

But simply mentioning just one or two of the three is not denying they were three.

"This, and the angels, did not seem to concern the 4th C Council which fixed the NT canon."

There was in parallel a 4th C research called De Harmonia Evangeliarum by St. Augustine of Hippo.

For women and angels: The Harmony of the Gospels, Book III, chapter 24
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602324.htm

In general: The Harmony of the Gospels (Augustine)
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1602.htm

"No one there could have been a literalist like you."

On the contrary, the people at the Councils of Carthage and Rome were confident people like St. Augustine were going to fix the objections.

And as the former of these local councils was in Carthage, not far from Hippo Regia*, and St. Augustine was bishop of Hippo Regia, we can see a connexion of the projects. Satisfactory to literalists like me.

"I wonder where your particular heresy crept in. Quite recently I would guess."

Along with a lot of atheist looking to "Catholics" like Karl Keating or Robert Barron on this question ... and your guess would be wrong.

"You could of course click Paulogia's icon and go look at some of his longer videos yourself."

I did for some. This index for label "Paulogia" on my assorted retorts blog is definitely not limited to only short ones (but some of the longer are still only halfway commented on):

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Showing posts with label Paulogia.
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/search/label/Paulogia

"BTW I'm still waiting for an answer, not an excuse."

I think I gave the same answer as St. Augustine, shame on you if you consider that just an "excuse".

*footnote

my bad, it's 4 hours by car from Carthage to Hippo Regius - funny I recalled it as Hippo Regia ...

VII

3:53 "we don't know yet"
In some cases, this is the "future science of the gaps".

Like materialistic explanation for consciousness or evolutionary explanation for human language.

Followed

by dialogue

Locnar

""we don't know yet"
In some cases, this is the "future science of the gaps"."

No it's a sign of HUMILITY... something beLIEvers are UNABLE to do !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar It's actually that humility which we do show in front of God being able to do something.

"We don't know yet" is reasonable when you start looking. But when you've turned every stone several times over, it's time to acknowledge you are looking in the wrong place.

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
"It's actually that humility which we do show in front of God being able to do something." Of course... beLIEVing you are one of the happy fews (he chose the ones he reveals himself) chosen by an allknowing god between the happy fews (made at his image) is the CORE DEFINITION of "humility" ! LOL !
Every sane person call it : OVERSIZED EGO

"But when you've turned every stone several times over, it's time to acknowledge you are looking in the wrong place."
Exactly what happen to sane person : after searching IN VAIN evidecne of the existence of god(s) they turn atheists or deists !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "Of course... beLIEVing you are one of the happy fews (he chose the ones he reveals himself) chosen by an allknowing god between the happy fews (made at his image) is the CORE DEFINITION of "humility" ! LOL !"

If God makes a choice, it is not pride but humility to accept it. Btw, within mankind Christians and even Catholics are not all that few. And men are not the only ones made in God's image, angels are even more numerous. And those not fallen are better (except for Christ and Mary).

"Every sane person call it : OVERSIZED EGO"

For believing without any kind of clear warrant one is "one of the happy few", well, how about your own idea you atheists (far fewer than even just Catholics, more like size of Anglicans) are one of the happy few who have defeated centuries long illusions by faked traditions and unsound research?

"Exactly what happen to sane person : after searching IN VAIN evidecne of the existence of god(s) they turn atheists or deists !"

You have neither shown where you have turned stone after stone in search for God (Gagarin's method is wrong!) nor dealt with the one I proposed. That makes your approach an ad hominem. At least so far.

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
"If God makes a choice, it is not pride but humility to accept it"
PROVE he did or STFU
"And men are not the only ones made in God's image, angels are even more numerous"
LOL ! PROVE angels exist or STFU

"You have neither shown where you have turned stone after stone in search for God (Gagarin's method is wrong!) nor dealt with the one I proposed."
Yopur provided NO EVIDENCE,... just the usual rhetoric of your cult : unfounded CLAIMS you through as "absolute truth"
"That makes your approach an ad hominem"
ABSOLUTLY NOT
Nobody have ever provided FACTUAL evidence for your god (or for other ones).
All you have to do to disprove it is to provide one... just one !

"how about your own idea you atheists (far fewer than even just Catholics, more like size of Anglicans)"
Appeal to popularity FALLACY !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "PROVE he did or STFU"

With that attitude you are not in a position to judge someone else's bloated ego.

"LOL ! PROVE angels exist or STFU"

We were talking about "lucky few" and the point was, no, men aren't quite that.

Proof? Well, both from Christian revelation and from astronomy, unless you want to accept the ghastly Heliocentric heresy and the even ghastlier reinterpretation of past history ad nauseam.

"Yopur provided NO EVIDENCE,..."

Yes. I did.

"just the usual rhetoric of your cult : unfounded CLAIMS you through as "absolute truth" "

No, the claims are not unfounded, we actually do have a consciousness, I actually did look at the latest attempt of your "science" cult, reviewed by Sabine Hossenfelder. We actually do have a language that is radically different from the communication systems of animals, and the atheist and evolutionist linguist Chomsky said so and gave an overview of the differences. He who knows the differences doesn't try to flesh out an evolutionary story and Pascal Picq who kind of tries doesn't master human linguistics.

"ABSOLUTLY NOT Nobody have ever provided FACTUAL evidence for your god (or for other ones). All you have to do to disprove it is to provide one... just one !"

1) we have minds with consciousness, reason, morality, language these minds are not eternal, but these mind contents need to be, since cannot be derived from matter;
2) unless we put the cart before the horse and assume no God and no angels exist, we observe a geocentric universe, but it only works with a God turning it around us;
3) Moses parted the Red Sea;
4) Jesus rose from the dead.

1 and 2 are quests for philosophy, and 3 and 4 for history. Both are better off if you accept it.

"Appeal to popularity FALLACY !"

Actually you were the one who brought up the megalomania of the "lucky few" ... I was answering that, not per se trying in that sentence to prove Catholicism, just showing how your cult is more open to the charge. BOTH in relation to present numbers AND in relation to history. To me, history is 7220 years old and Catholics have been around since 1988 years. 1988 / 7220 = 27.53 %. To you, human history is, just for Sapiens sapiens, 150 000 years old and modern atheism was hardly started with Shaftesbury, he died 1683, 338 years, 338 / 150 000 = 0.225 %. That's a very far fewer "lucky few".

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
Me :"LOL ! PROVE angels exist or STFU"
You : "Proof? Well, both from Christian revelation and from astronomy, "
Please provide astronomical observation of angles !

"unless you want to accept the ghastly Heliocentric heresy"
ALL astronomical observation and LAWS of mechanic support the heliocentric model !
Only DEEP RELIGION INDOCTRINATION in bullshitology supports other -drivel- models ( geocentric or flat earth cult)

"we have minds with consciousness, reason, morality, language these minds are not eternal, but these mind contents need to be, since cannot be derived from matter;"
FALSE
NO matter (brain) = no consciousness... then conciousness DERIVES from matter
"but these mind contents need to be"
YOUR CROWD OPINION and nothing more. This oipinion have the same value than a used sheet of toilet paper... minus the fertilizer value !

"unless we put the cart before the horse and assume no God and no angels exist, we observe a geocentric universe, but it only works with a God turning it around us;"
We NEVER observe a geocentric universe . ONe time, we BELIEVE the universe in geocentric but it's against ALL observation and mechanic laws .
A geocentric universe need tremendous accelerations to expalin the epicycle needed... what would blow out all the celestrial bodies !

"Moses parted the Red Sea;"
"Jesus rose from the dead." EVIDENCES NEEDED !
BTW quotes from a book which pretends "pi = 3" and "bats are birds" IS NOT EVIDENCE
Where are the historical evidence for these ALLEGED events ? NOwhere except in your fairy tale book !
With this point of view, the broken nose of the sphynx is a proof Asterix and Obelix were real !

"To me, history is 7220 years old and Catholics have been around since 1988 years"
Oh a young earth creationist ! LOL !
Sorry to have to leave this conversation : I m not trained to deal with the mentally disabled !
In creationism, the "a" and "o" are not needed !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "Please provide astronomical observation of angles !"

Tychonian orbits, including retrogrades, and the complex movements of fix stars (not really fixed, but unlike planets relatively so in relation to zodiac) described in terms of "aberration" "annual parallax" and "proper movement".

"ALL astronomical observation and LAWS of mechanic support the heliocentric model !"

Laws of mechanics only do so if only mechanics of inertia and gravitation are allowed. If free willed movements - like angels acting on celestial bodies - is allowed, your argument falls. And Geocentrism as supported by direct observation is thus preferrable. Meaning angels exist. Astronomy is mainly observed from earth and is therefore geocentric.

"Only DEEP RELIGION INDOCTRINATION in bullshitology supports other drivel models ( geocentric or flat earth cult)"

Ad hominem plus providing fake history of my ways in philosophy.

"FALSE"

I am glad we have the discussion on internet, you seem to be in a mood for shouting loud ...

"NO matter (brain) = no consciousness... then conciousness DERIVES from matter"

Among material objects, only living ones with living brains show consciousness. This does not equal the universal you try to give and your syllogism for proving "it is so and has to be so" doesn't explain in the least how it could even remotely be so.

" YOUR CROWD OPINION and nothing more. This oipinion have the same value than a used sheet of toilet paper... minus the fertilizer value !"

Ah, thank you for noting opinions lack material attributes (like fertilizer value!). One of the reasons mind cannot simply derive from a material brain.

"We NEVER observe a geocentric universe . ONe time, we BELIEVE the universe in geocentric but it's against ALL observation and mechanic laws ."

It's actually according to all observation made in unarmed eyes by c. 7 billion pairs of eyes, and equally 7 billion pairs of inner ears - over earth not seeming to turn - every day. Mechanics part already answered.

"A geocentric universe need tremendous accelerations to expalin the epicycle needed... what would blow out all the celestrial bodies !"

I am not sure exactly what epicycle you are referring to, the ones I think of are provided by angels.

"EVIDENCES NEEDED !"

Historical records like Exodus and Matthew.

"BTW quotes from a book which pretends "pi = 3" and "bats are birds" IS NOT EVIDENCE"

Even if that were so, it would detract nothing of the historical value of Exodus and Matthew. In fact it is not so. One single circle certainly has pi as relation between circumference and diameter. But two concentric circles of a certain object, each chosen for best measure possibilities with string either of circumference or for diameter may very well have three outer diameters for one inner cirucmference. The difference of diameters actually lines up neatly with the decorated rim protruding one hand's breadth outside.

But you need not be a science expert to accurately record the events you see before your eyes and before the eyes of large crowds.

"Where are the historical evidence for these ALLEGED events ? NOwhere except in your fairy tale book !"

Yeah, like what are your criteria for when a book is history?

"With this point of view, the broken nose of the sphynx is a proof Asterix and Obelix were real !"

Do you judge them unreal just for the magic potion? I judge them unreal for known satiric intent of author René Goscinny and painter Albert Uderzo. As well as entertaining one. It has always been taken as fiction by earliest known fanbase. Very unlike Exodus and

"Oh a young earth creationist ! LOL !"

Yes.

"Sorry to have to leave this conversation : I m not trained to deal with the mentally disabled !"

And I am very used but yet not ever get used to deal with rude people, so you are welcome to do so. Before you go, remember to check out the link I left on your channel discussion.

"In creationism, the "a" and "o" are not needed !"

In evolution, you can switch o for i.

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
Sorry I tape "angles" instead of "angels"
then
Please provide astronomical observation of angels

"Tychonian orbits, including retrogrades, and the complex movements of fix stars"
Complex movements REQUIRE varying accelerations... then varying FORCES so intense they would collapse the stars and planets !
TYcho build his model based ON RELIGION VIWE because his religious indoctrination doesn't allow him to considere the posibility the earth is not the center.
That's why his model is not used ( and NEVER was ) !
His disciples dare to do it and we got the WORKING model we use today !

" If free willed movements - like angels acting on celestial bodies - is allowed, your argument falls"
Then you explanation is... : MAGIC !
You just have to PROVE the existence of angels !

"And Geocentrism as supported by direct observation is thus preferrable. Meaning angels exist."
"Proving" an hypothesis by another hypothesis even more ridiculous... YOUR conception of logic !

"Ad hominem plus providing fake history of my ways in philosophy"
False again !
The pro geocentrism or flat earthism are ALL religious .
Then thses (unworking) models are directly the result of religious indoctrination !

"Ah, thank you for noting opinions lack material attributes (like fertilizer value!). One of the reasons mind cannot simply derive from a material brain."
Thank for proving you poor reading skills and your stupidity.
The fertilizer analogy is linked to "value" not to the nature of opinion !

"I am not sure exactly what epicycle you are referring to,"
Epicycle are the retrograde motion

" the ones I think of are provided by angels.""
In this topic you DON'T THINK, you BELIEVE !
Then your expalnation is : MAGIC !

"Historical records like Exodus and Matthew."
None of them are "historical"
Even Hebrew historians claim exodus NEVER occured !
NOt a single historical track OUTSIDE YOUR FAIRY TALE BOOK !
No track of sudden lost of THE HALF of the working population in Egyptian records
No track of sudden arrival of 1 milion people ( the biblical count take only care of males)
Nothing "historical"... but rather "hysterical"

"In evolution, you can switch o for i."
What work ONLY in english... another PROOF "creatarzionism" is mostly an MuriKKKan (notice the " 3K" like in the klan) stuff.
The word country the most rotten by religious indoctrination !

"Very unlike Exodus"
Exodus is not satiric, it's just FICTIOUS !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "Please provide astronomical observation of angels"
"Complex movements REQUIRE varying accelerations... then varying FORCES so intense they would collapse the stars and planets !"

Where exactly so?
Can you provide an actual example, or are you just parrotting?

"TYcho build his model based ON RELIGION VIWE because his religious indoctrination doesn't allow him to considere the posibility the earth is not the center."

Actually, he was Geocentric because he saw earth being still and saw heavenly bodies move. We still do, but some have such a heliocentric indoctrination, they can't consider the possibility earth is the centre.

"That's why his model is not used ( and NEVER was ) !"

Oh, it was. The famous astronomer Riccioli has a moon crater named for him, and he was Tychonian. He rejected Kepler's heliocentricity and only accepted his elliptic orbit.

"His disciples dare to do it and we got the WORKING model we use today !"

You fail history of ideas, if I examine you.

"Then you explanation is... : MAGIC !
You just have to PROVE the existence of angels !"

You just have to disprove it in order to rule out Geocentrism. Otherwise, Tychonian orbits and the other movements (actually proper movements, but divided wrongly into proper, aberrational and parallactic) prove voluntary movers, i e angels.

""Proving" an hypothesis by another hypothesis even more ridiculous... YOUR conception of logic !"

Geocentrism is not a hypothesis, it is prima facie fact. You have to disprove it.

"False again !"

Actually not. I'll analyse your next two sentences.

"The pro geocentrism or flat earthism are ALL religious ."

Except Epicure and Democritus, the old age atheists ... but OK, a Geocentric nowadays is usually aware the orbits don't match what Democritus' and Epicure's explanation would predict, so would normally be Theist.

Your bringing in Flat Earth is a curious example of Heliocentric indoctrination, where Geocentrism is considered ridiculous by association with Flat Earth - Tycho and Riccioli were not Flat Earthers.

"Then thses (unworking) models are directly the result of religious indoctrination !"

No, in my case they are very definitely the result of mature reflection in adult years. Your guess is totally wrong.

"Thank for proving you poor reading skills and your stupidity."

Thank you for proving your animosity. AND your bloated ego imagining YOU are the only one leading a discussion, and I JUST have to get what YOU are saying.

"The fertilizer analogy is linked to "value" not to the nature of opinion !"

But the lack of fertilier value is in fact, even if you didn't get it, directly linked to opinions lacking chemical components. Not the only material attributes they lack.

"Epicycle are the retrograde motion"

OK ... what exact retrograde motion would require the forces that would tear the planet apart? Give mathematical detail of your reasoning!

"In this topic you DON'T THINK, you BELIEVE !"

Believing is thinking, whatever your "freethinking" indoctrination may otherwise have led you to believe.

"Then your expalnation is : MAGIC !"

It is supernatural, magic is usually limited to a specific and other kind of supernatural, the one that magicians pretend to practise or master.

"None of them are "historical" "

Both are among the histiorical books of the Bible.

"Even Hebrew historians claim exodus NEVER occured !"

You mean unbelieving Jews - the guys who don't believe in Jesus - don't believe in Moses? What's the difference? Why do you speak of "even"?

"NOt a single historical track OUTSIDE YOUR FAIRY TALE BOOK !"

There are plenty of historical facts that have only one source, when we go back this far.

"No track of sudden lost of THE HALF of the working population in Egyptian records"

Look, Egyptian records from back then still accessible today are fairly scarce. It's not like two sides of a 19th C. War, where we expect not just US but also Spain to have records of the war about Cuba, and the records to be still there on both sides. 1510 BC is not like 1898 AD, OK ...

"No track of sudden arrival of 1 milion people ( the biblical count take only care of males)"

Canaanite records from 1470 BC are even more scarce than Egyptian ones from 1510 BC.

"Nothing "historical"... but rather "hysterical""

About your rejection ...

"What work ONLY in english... another PROOF "creatarzionism" is mostly an MuriKKKan (notice the " 3K" like in the klan) stuff."

Klan is not Young Earth Creationist, they deny Adam was the first man, and that Black people descend from him.

"The word country the most rotten by religious indoctrination !"

What exact country are you from with your rotten antireligious one? I tried to see if Locnar was a Slavic or Hungarian word, but Loc-Nar is actually a fiction character ... btw, I am not American, I am Swedish, the least religious country in the world, even if we don't have the same intensity of state sponsored anti-religious hatred as East Bloc ...

"Exodus is not satiric, it's just FICTIOUS !"

Except it was only so very recently that anyone thought of it as such. Real history, fake history, fable - in that order. Most who did not agree with it didn't know of it, until somewhat less recently ... so real history is the longest and by far oldest known reception of it. With Asterix, fiction is the immediate reception.

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
""Complex movements REQUIRE varying accelerations... then varying FORCES so intense they would collapse the stars and planets !"
Where exactly so?
Can you provide an actual example, or are you just parrotting?"

LAWS of mechanic as USED DAILY in REAL LIFE by engineers, designers,... PROVE that EVERY variation of movement requres an acceleration ! As Force = acceleration x mass the forces applied on these body would collapse them !

"Actually, he was Geocentric because he saw earth being still and saw heavenly bodies move. We still do, but some have such a heliocentric indoctrination, they can't consider the possibility earth is the centre."
FALSE
His model was geocentric because HIS RELIGIOUS INDOCTRINATION prevents him to accept the earth not being in the center.

"He saw the earth being still"
EXPLAIN how he "knew" the earth is still and other bodies move and not the other way...
RELATIVE MOVEMENTS between these bodies PROVE they are turning around the sun (as Tycho model claims !) and earth TOO
MEchanic LAWS debunks the geocentric religious dogma !

"t is supernatural, magic is usually limited to a specific and other kind of supernatural, the one that magicians pretend to practise or master."
Only in YOUR FANTASY WORLD !
Throuwing "it's supernatural" as expalnation is highly ludiciousand have NO EXPLANATION VALUE .

"There are plenty of historical facts that have only one source, when we go back this far."
PROVE IT..
Even if that's true (it's not) these source are RELIABLE;.. unlike the baybull !

"Both are among the histiorical books of the Bible."
What don't you understand in the sentence " THE BIBLE IS NOT HISTORICALLY RELIABLE"
NO tracks foe most of the event in it
Contradictions (2 different rulers during the supposed census following the verses))
No tracks of the census. NO need to" go to your birth place" for a census

"Klan is not Young Earth Creationist, they deny Adam was the first man, and that Black people descend from him."
Klan members ( most of them) call themself christians and use the scripture to deny black as humans
Some klan members are YEC !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "LAWS of mechanic as USED DAILY in REAL LIFE by engineers, designers,... PROVE that EVERY variation of movement requres an acceleration !"

So far correct. This is also true of the movements of planets according to Heliocentrism, they also require acceleration, none of them is rectilinear movement in same speed, and actually, they are not even in same speed.

"As Force = acceleration x mass the forces applied on these body would collapse them !"

That's the exact part where I wanted an example and you did not give one.

"EXPLAIN how he "knew" the earth is still and other bodies move and not the other way..."

For one thing, prima facie primes the alternative, unless you can disprove prima facie appearance.

"RELATIVE MOVEMENTS between these bodies PROVE they are turning around the sun (as Tycho model claims !) and earth TOO"

A relative movement does not show which of the bodies is moving.

"MEchanic LAWS debunks the geocentric religious dogma !"

ONLY if you can exclude freewilled movers.

"Only in YOUR FANTASY WORLD !"

It's fairly standard in Catholic theology which has been the mainstay of our Western civilisation ...

"Throuwing "it's supernatural" as expalnation is highly ludiciousand have NO EXPLANATION VALUE ."

Perhaps not in your Soviet style university, but more generally among human people discussing it, it has.

"PROVE IT.."

Caesar defeated the Helvetic invader Orgetorix. With a battle at Lake Geneva. ONLY source = Caesar's Bellum Gallicum. I am not sure if it is repeated by Sueton or Dio Cassius, but if so, that source is dependent on Bellum Gallicum.

"Even if that's true (it's not) these source are RELIABLE;.. unlike the baybull !"

Because you decided so in advance ... or because the supernatural displayed in events, so called miracles ...?

"What don't you understand in the sentence " THE BIBLE IS NOT HISTORICALLY RELIABLE""

I understand it, I just don't agree with it.

"NO tracks foe most of the event in it"

Repeat that in other words, English, German ...

"Contradictions (2 different rulers during the supposed census following the verses))"

You show?

"No tracks of the census. NO need to" go to your birth place" for a census"

There actually are some different clues to the census, but that's not my specialty.

As to getting to one's own habitual place of residence it would make sense in view of Roman local democracy, and it would also make sense it is formulated as going to one's city and on top of that it would also make sense if St. Joseph interpreted it as going to the city his family is from ... a little pun on the ways the Romans formulated it.

Besides, Vulgate has "civitatem" and Greek has "polin" ... it means the lower than whole Empire city state you belonged to, in some cases countries like Galilee or Juda (back in that year a protectorate and not a province yet).

"Klan members ( most of them) call themself christians and use the scripture to deny black as humans"

Mis-use.

"Some klan members are YEC !"

Examples?

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
"This is also true of the movements of planets according to Heliocentrism, they also require acceleration, none of them is rectilinear movement in same speed, and actually, they are not even in same speed."
Dynamic equilibrum between initial speed and gravitation induces a rotation movement.
Gravitation compensated exactly the centrifugal acceleration...
YOU LOSE AGAIN !

""As Force = acceleration x mass the forces applied on these body would collapse them !"
That's the exact part where I wanted an example and you did not give one."
Take one case of "retrograde motion". Calculate the acceleration needed to change the direction and multiply it by the masse of the body... then calculate the force geenrated and compare it to the resistance of the material...
YOU GET A COLLAPSE !
I not here to make your homework !

"ONLY if you can exclude freewilled movers."
Until you PROVE their existence , your "explanation" is just BECAUSE MAGIC !
Give a way to PREDICT the action of your "freewilled movers" ... you can't? Therefore your drivel have NO EXPLANATORY VALUE !

"Because you decided so in advance ... or because the supernatural displayed in events, so called miracles ...?"é
No becasue the countless contradcitions, errors in this book.
Because of the TOTAL absence of histrical evidence for the events of the book

"Caesar defeated the Helvetic invader Orgetorix. With a battle at Lake Geneva. ONLY source = Caesar's Bellum Gallicum. I am not sure if it is repeated by Sueton or Dio Cassius, but if so, that source is dependent on Bellum Gallicum."
Geopolitic consequencies tend to valid the event...
Not the same with biblical TALES !

"Mis-use."
YOUR oipinion, not their... with the same value (see in one of my previous posts)

""NO tracks foe most of the event in it"
Repeat that in other words, English, German ..."
Don't try to look even dumber than you really are : far from needed !
NO tracks for most of the events related in the book...

Your "explanation" about the census's contradictions is just word salad and ad hoc hypothesis : the bread and butter of christian apologetics !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar "Dynamic equilibrum between initial speed and gravitation induces a rotation movement."

Which by definition is one involving acceleration, since any sideway turn is as much acceleration as a speeding up or slowing down of the movement.

"Gravitation compensated exactly the centrifugal acceleration..."

I was not talking of the centrifugal one, I think.

I think your physics is as bad as your English, I don't think you went to any university ... in fact, in the Heliocentric world, aphelium and perihelium are explained as sometimes gravitation weakening and its effect accumulating to a turning point, just in the nick of time, sometimes the gravitation getting stronger and making the turning point. Either way, an acceleration does take place.

"YOU LOSE AGAIN !"

You pretend you are the neutral umpire keeping track between us?

"Take one case of "retrograde motion". Calculate the acceleration needed to change the direction and multiply it by the masse of the body... then calculate the force geenrated and compare it to the resistance of the material..."

Yes, I was asking YOU to provide such a case.

"YOU GET A COLLAPSE !"

On what exact case?

"I not here to make your homework !"

Come on, you are not a school teacher to me, if you make an argument, you back it up ...

"Until you PROVE their existence , your "explanation" is just BECAUSE MAGIC !"

The fact they explain this is one of the proofs.

"Give a way to PREDICT the action of your "freewilled movers" ... you can't? Therefore your drivel have NO EXPLANATORY VALUE !"

Prediction : God has willed them and they have willed to obey, that they will use regular orbits, therefore the observation of the orbits will provide a way to predict their future movements.

E x a m p l e : God has willed the angel of the Sun to move from West to East through the Zodiac at c. 365.2425 times slower than his compound movement from East to West (between own movement as described through the ether and getting along with ether moved by God), therefore the year is c. 365.2425 times as long as one day.

"No becasue the countless contradcitions, errors in this book."

Countless is a claim, you are not showing even one to back that claim up.

"Because of the TOTAL absence of histrical evidence for the events of the book"

The prima facie conclusion of a) a source making a claim and b) the earliest known audience of the source considering it historical is c) that claim is historical. In each case where this is not so, this has to be separately proven.

"Geopolitic consequencies tend to valid the event..."

What is the exact geopolitical consequence of the battle at lake Geneva.

"Not the same with biblical TALES !"

Geopolitical consequence of Exodus event and Joshua events : Egyptian protectorate or semi-province Canaan got a new population, which we see there later on. Plus obviously later history of Israel. Geopolitical consequence of Christ's resurrection : we see the Church.

What? Are these geoploitical consequences of something else entirely, you mean? Well, that might work for rewriting Gallic wars and dismissing Bellum Gallicum too!

"YOUR oipinion, not their... with the same value (see in one of my previous posts)"

No, you have so far not shown why their opinion would have the same value as that of the Catholic Church which excommunicates them.

"Don't try to look even dumber than you really are : far from needed !"

Thanks for the compliment ...

"NO tracks for most of the events related in the book..."

You had misspelled "for" as "foe" ... sorry. As to my answer : Like with most claims of most books this far back, unless we get to broad geopolitical traces, where existence of Judaism and CHristianity both are such of Exodus.

"Your "explanation" about the census's contradictions is just word salad and ad hoc hypothesis : the bread and butter of christian apologetics !"

In fact, as a Latinist, I happen to know "civitas" and "polis" refers to more than place.

A Roman temporarily residing in Athens would be distinct from a CITIZEN of Athens. A Roman temporarily residing in Pompeii would be distinct from a CITIZEN of Pompeii. Yes, being a citizen of the Empire was not just being a citizen of Rome, it was also being a citizen of some other political entity, under Rome. And being a provincial was being ONLY a citizen of another political entity under Rome, which did not enjoy status or Roman citizens. This was the case with Egypt and Galilee, but at this time not with Judaea, since Judaea was outside the Empire proper and under its own, vassal, king. Arguably, this means, by deliberately being precise in an unexpected way about the terms in the edict, he was eluding the census.

Locnar

@Hans-Georg Lundahl
"in fact, in the Heliocentric world, aphelium and perihelium are explained as sometimes gravitation weakening and its effect accumulating to a turning point, just in the nick of time, sometimes the gravitation getting stronger and making the turning point."
Only in flattardia !

"The fact they explain this is one of the proofs."
FALSE
They explain NOTHING ! YOU have to PROVE their existence BEFORE you start to CLAIM they have an action... or at least modelize their supposed action to see if it match with reality...
You just CLAIM they exist... now PROVE it without your usual circular reasoning
PROVE they are the cause of the events you attribute to them !

"God has willed them and they have willed to obey,"
PROVE IT !
Quoting the biblicalFAIRY TALE is not PROOf

"God has willed the angel of the Sun to move from West to East through the Zodiac at c. 365.2425 times slower than his compound movement from East to "
PROVE your god did it, stop CLAIMING he did !

"Geopolitical consequence of Christ's resurrection : we see the Church."
Here again :NOT A SINGLE HISTORICAL TRACK ! Only the biblical FAIRYTALE

"geopolitical traces, where existence of Judaism and CHristianity both are such of Exodus."
FALSE
Judaism PREDATES the exodus supposed occurence and ChristianISM is nothing more than a jewish SECT (aka a derivated belief)

Another bullshit EXCUSEfor the -lack of- absence of evidence for the biblical tales about the census.
Acensus BY DEFINITION is used to know the amount of people in a place, therefore going back to his birthplace is a COMPLETE NONSENSE !

"I think your physics is as bad as your English, I don't think you went to any university "
English is only my third language..
And about physics, I m a former Mechanic teacher (now an engineeer)... therfore my physic is farabove the one of an homeshooled anator theologist like you !

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Locnar " Only in flattardia !"

No, actually by my physics teacher who was a Heliocentric. I begin to think you never went to university at all ... even apart from your bad manners. This is the explanation why planetary orbits are elliptic, not perfectly circular.

"FALSE
They explain NOTHING ! YOU have to PROVE their existence BEFORE you start to CLAIM they have an action... or at least modelize their supposed action to see if it match with reality..."

Model for angelic action : they act one matter, one object at a time (for instance one star or one planet for any given angel, or one car for that guardian angel who saved a boy from being crushed by that car), by will. No vectors needed in them, but vectors may well be produced or cancelled in the object.

"You just CLAIM they exist... now PROVE it without your usual circular reasoning
PROVE they are the cause of the events you attribute to them !"

There is prima facie proof in the fact that contrary to your models, they explain directly what we see, not just indirectly through it being an optical illusion (like moving trees as seen from cars or trains).

"PROVE IT ! Quoting the biblicalFAIRY TALE is not PROOf"

With your hysteria, it is impossible to even discuss the model I propose.

"PROVE your god did it, stop CLAIMING he did !"

It directly matches observations from earth. Directly, not inversely. Hence it is more economical.

"Here again :NOT A SINGLE HISTORICAL TRACK ! Only the biblical FAIRYTALE"

You can't have studied history much either. In fact, you dropped your claim known historical facts need many sources, you are out of your depth.

"FALSE
Judaism PREDATES the exodus supposed occurence and ChristianISM is nothing more than a jewish SECT (aka a derivated belief)"

The religion of Adam or Abraham is not termed "Jewish", but "Patriarchal" in Catholic language. And we claim to be the true Jews (Judaism is the derivative belief, with modifications to match their rejection of Jesus and loss of the temple).

"Another bullshit EXCUSEfor the lack of absence of evidence for the biblical tales about the census.
Acensus BY DEFINITION is used to know the amount of people in a place, therefore going back to his birthplace is a COMPLETE NONSENSE !"

You think of modern censuses. You forget the highly federal nature of Roman Empire. If a citizen of Galilee came to Athens, he couldn't vote in Athenian votes (elections or other). If a citizen of Athens came to Galilee, likewise, he had no part in Galilaean affairs, unless he came in the quality of Roman citizen and official, that is occupant.

"English is only my third language.."

Mine too.

"And about physics, I m a former Mechanic teacher (now an engineeer)... therfore my physic is farabove the one of an homeshooled anator theologist like you !"

You refuse to show it in the debate at hand.

VIII

3:59 "which is a false start right there"

Matter and energy always existed? Oh, but, H + H -> D, D + D -> He. Happens all the time in the Sun and a lot of stars.

The reverse process is unknown. Since H₂ is still way more numerous than He, and H₂O also, this means the universe has to have some youth ... it has not yet run out of hydrogen!

4:11 "but matter and energy were around before that, in whatever sense before" 4:13 "...that is a relevant concept."

The iffy application of before is straight off plagiarism from Theistic views on God before Creation, since God isn't in time. You could add an equally iffy application of matter in your case, since H cannot have existed in steady state, since it is while still plentyfull, in the long run running out.

Plus an equally iffy application of "energy" even now, since "potential energy" is just theorised to be same quantity and cannot be measured in any one object without relating it to others.

"if anything has to be ..." 4:18 "timeless, it might as well be the energy we all agree" 4:19 "exists."

Do we all agree to that?

resistance is futile

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Only an eternal force is needed to explain what exists as it does. No god required.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@resistance is futile How would an eternal force explain the existence of Hydrogen?

Why has not all Hydrogen become Deuterium, and all Deuterium Helium, already?

IX

4:27 "but starting in the Miller experiments ..."

we have seen very well that abiogenesis of first cell is impossible.

Stating otherwise is like pretending, the natural formation of a brick, if it were possible, would prove Notre Dame could have been built without actual intelligent builders.

4:34 "to prebiotic peptide research of 2020"

CHAPTER 207 - Prebiotic Peptides
BERND M.RODE & KRISTOF PLANKENSTEINER
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780123694423502105

ABSTRACT
Based on modern geochemistry's view of the atmospheric and geological conditions on the primordial Earth ∼3.8–4 billion years ago, the most realistic scenario for the formation of amino acids and peptides in chemical evolution is discussed, including possible reasons for sequence preferences in early proteins and for biohomochirality. Arguments for a peptide/protein world as primary origin of life, preceding RNA/DNA-based evolution, are presented.

In other words, a new theory is being presented, and it is not refuted yet as much as the other one. Above is from 2006, but below seems to be fresher:

Prebiotic Peptides: Molecular Hubs in the Origin of Life
Moran Frenkel-Pinter, Mousumi Samanta, Gonen Ashkenasy*, and Luke J. Leman*
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrev.9b00664

Can I actually read it? Only abstract ...

Abstract
The fundamental roles that peptides and proteins play in today’s biology makes it almost indisputable that peptides were key players in the origin of life. Insofar as it is appropriate to extrapolate back from extant biology to the prebiotic world, one must acknowledge the critical importance that interconnected molecular networks, likely with peptides as key components, would have played in life’s origin. In this review, we summarize chemical processes involving peptides that could have contributed to early chemical evolution, with an emphasis on molecular interactions between peptides and other classes of organic molecules. We first summarize mechanisms by which amino acids and similar building blocks could have been produced and elaborated into proto-peptides. Next, non-covalent interactions of peptides with other peptides as well as with nucleic acids, lipids, carbohydrates, metal ions, and aromatic molecules are discussed in relation to the possible roles of such interactions in chemical evolution of structure and function. Finally, we describe research involving structural alternatives to peptides and covalent adducts between amino acids/peptides and other classes of molecules. We propose that ample future breakthroughs in origin-of-life chemistry will stem from investigations of interconnected chemical systems in which synergistic interactions between different classes of molecules emerge.

I propose that the future result will be this will be as much discredited as order of DNA information coming from nothing into the amino acids ...

4:50 "but it's not complete, and may not be complete in my lifetime"

Future science of the gaps, then!

Followed

by dialogue

Heartland Fun Gear

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Is a peptide life?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Heartland Fun Gear A single peptide? No. But the point is, the research is just beginning and has no definite results yet.

Heartland Fun Gear

@Hans-Georg Lundahl - so there is no evidence to support the authors claim nature caused life to begin?

resistance is futile

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Special pleading. You are merely kicking the improbability can down the road to an exponentially greater improbably since an eternal thinking agent is logically and statistically impossible.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@resistance is futile Neither logically, nor statistically.

It is the one explanation which makes sense of consciousness and of human language.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Heartland Fun Gear Exactly.

And the fact that they start looking at that clue means they have exhausted a previous one.

If God gave the world a few centuries more, Atheism would be soon exhausted.

X

5:08 "but we now understand that appearance is"
"deceiving"
"us, it is the earth that moves, not the sun" 5:11

Good luck proving what you claim "we now understand"!

Naive puddle ... if puddles were conscious, which they are not, this would be an argument for God actually designing a world where puddles can exist.

As it is, there is nothing wrong with claiming God did that. I may for instance have more ease getting hands washed after a toilet visit without tap water to get fingers clean in a puddle than if water were running back and forth ...

I wonder how much of atheistic and generally modern thought depends on ascribing consciousness to things that don't have any:

• computers (when arguing AI actually understands things)
• puddles
• extraterrestrial inhabitants of other planets (which arguably don't exist), and the latter from Galileo to Euler.

XI

5:38 No, our understanding of how consciousness emerges from brains is not incomplete, it is non-extant.

If you really read up on the subject and its recent advances you would know it.

• quantum states in the brain (quantum states are too short compared to what they should explain)
• correlation of different parts of brain at maximum (refuted by epilepsy), sorry optimum (whatever determines that)
• brain searching a way to read data reducing "noise" (presumes there already is an understanding of what is noise and what is meaningful information).

Sabine Hossenfelder ditches all of them as inadequate:

The Mathematics of Consciousness
9th Jan. 2021 | Sabine Hossenfelder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efVBUDnD_no

5:44 No, the repeated results of neuroscience repeatedly demonstrate there are correlations between mental states and physical states.

They do not demonstrate the mental states are all on the receiving end of the correlation.

6:10 and obviously, the idea that it is so leads to the denial of freewill.

resistance is futile

@Hans-Georg Lundahl If the blind cannot see without eyes, the deaf cannot hear without eyes, how does one think without a brain? If consciousness doesn't require a brain, why doesn't our skulls just contain motor function hardware surrounding an immaterial soul module? In fact, if thinking does not require matter, why would an immaterial being even bother with matter? Seems like a big waste of energy.

Consciousness is just the result of the continuous feedback loop of our model-based navigation hardware. Don't overthink it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@resistance is futile Our soul is meant for interaction with the body.

This means, unlike angels, we need eyes to see and brains to think, not because consciousness requires it, but because human consciousness is made for interaction with the body.

Angels are immaterial beings only.

XII

6:25 Neither empathy, nor working in groups equals morality.

Empathy also does not automatically mean one loves one's neighbour as oneself.

If your empathy is erroneous, your attempt to love your neighbour as yourself will fail, and if your empathy is correct, you may abuse it in very unloving ways.

The morality of collaboration may turn into the socialist morality which is very immoral.

XIII

6:44 "god did it is a thought-free answer to any question"
Less than energy and matter are thought-free answers to any questions in your world view.

With morality, consciousness, language, God did it can get support from presumed attributes of God, while evolution did it can get no support from presumed attributes of energy and matter.

XIV

8:07 I have seen number 3 to the end, now number 4.

Fear of Hell is not my motive for remaining Christian, I don't feel any intellectual attraction to theories like atheism which would land me there, it's like telling a cyclist he only keeps the balance because he fears falling down ... in fact cyclists who do fear that may risk quitting bikes more (as I have quit them).

And for the present and for the past at least ten years, I have not had very good friends in Church and some of my best friends are atheists. Most are in parishes far away from here.

XV

9:21 No thanks, I don't intend to stop being a Christian.

I am too devoted to learning and good philosophy! (Yes, I hope God's grace is keeping me too, but that's a big part of how). (Besides, that's perhaps not an explanation you would accept any more).