Life in the Middle Ages was Usually Not Miserable, and in Europe Involved No Cholera

Q

What was the most miserable aspect of medieval life?
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-most-miserable-aspect-of-medieval-life/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Scott Webb

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University

Answered November 9, 2019

Who says it was miserable? I have seen some suggestions here.

I have seen “hunger,” well, happened. But it didn’t happen every year in every place. You had worse hunger in the XXth C. in Ethiopia or when Ukraine (and some neighbouring parts) were misruled by the Soviet Union, and you had worse hunger, back XIXth C. in the potato famine.

I have seen “bad hygiene,” both on clothing and on habitation. Sorry, but this is prejudice. Hygiene worsened from end of Middle Ages to beginning of Industrial Era and some believers in progress have projected the bad sanitation of Manchester in 1830 back to the Middle Ages, minus the factory smoke and the smog.

As for clothes, there is no indication they were dirty clothes very long before washing them. As for living with animals, there is such a thing as hay and there were such things as stables, that is having animal abodes and human abodes a bit separate.

And I have seen, also on the answers here, having to stay with the same lord. If he wasn’t bad, and didn’t seduce your wife or daughter or sister, which unfortunately some did, why would that be bad?

The one thing I could think of would be Hundred Years’ War, near the end of the Middle Ages, and after that War of the Roses, for France and then England, but that came near the end of the Middle Ages and it returned in even worse versions in religious wars during XVIth and XVIIth C. like Eighty Years’ War, Thirty Years’ War and English Revolution.

Before you shout “plague” the big Medieval one lasted 1347 - 1349 and in no place was actively killing majorities of people for all three of the years, so, Black Death is like saying the worth thing when Noah was alive was the Deluge, and also, smaller plague epidemics lasted up to at least 1720 in Europe. Look up Augustin of Vienna, who survived near burial in a plague ditch and bishop Belsunce of Marseilles - a man doing good volunteer work both in fighting the plague and in fighting Calvinism.

Henri François Xavier de Belsunce de Castelmoron - Wikipedia

Der Wiener Rathauskeller

Well, I could mention one thing, though : there were Albigensians at a time.

I

Eric Christian Hansen

December 8, 2019

pandemic (i.e. a series of epidemics).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

December 10, 2019

A pandemic is not defined as a temporal series of epidemics in the same area. If you mean a series in quick sequence of epidemics in different places, I already mentioned the one pandemic, namely Plague of 1346 - 1349 (no place all 4 years).

Eric Christian Hansen

Thu, 15.VII.2021

still bad even in Joan of Arc’s time (1412 to 1431 A.D. ). 50% of the French population died from the pestilence. Those that survived lived to fight a Civil War that raged on for over 100 years. (Hundred Years’ War).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fri, 16.VII.2021

They did?

Source would be liked (btw, 100 years’ war was about to end in her time or rather soon after).

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sun, 18.VII.2021

As said, source would be liked.

I have a source saying sth different:

The Black Death and the Hundred Years' War
https://www.medievalists.net/2020/03/black-death-hundred-years-war/

According to this, France was first plagued by the plague, then (with some years’ overlap) by the 100 years’ war.

II

Marc Robidoux

Mon, 12.VII.2021

Oh those were the days, pre science, pre vaccine , rampant slavery feudal days when everyone knew what god to worship and no one questioned the validity of religious dogma. Who says it was miserable?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue, 13.VII.2021

"Oh those were the days, pre science,"

Not really, Aristotle had invented it c. 700 years before the Middle Ages began. It was not lost.

"pre vaccine"

Indeed. Therefore also pre-anti-viral vaccines with viruses bred on human fetal cells.

"rampant slavery"

The Middle Ages were the days when slavery was first getting abolished. Historical fact. Queen St. Bathildis of Francia (a unit later split into France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, BeNeLux) abolished slavery and when Benjamin Frankling was about to voyage to France, he was councilled to take a slave who was either very devoted or didn't know French, since a slave setting foot on French soil (not Louisiana and Islands, but France proper) could ask for release and be immediately released, legally. Obviously, the slavery of black people by white people was absent from nearly all of the Middle Ages, starting just near the end with Portuguese conquests in Africa.

"feudal days"

Yeah ... Richard Lionheart had to accept being vassal to the King of France to be Lord of Aquitaine ... what is your point?

"when everyone knew what god to worship"

Indeed, with some exceptions. Not knowing it is not my idea of "not miserable".

"and no one questioned the validity of religious dogma."

Again with some exceptions. Seriously and pertinaciously questioning it is also not my idea of "not miserable".

"Who says it was miserable?"

If the image is supposed to be an answer, it was taken after the Middle Ages. That said, being in town would sometimes be less healthy as exposing you to pocks. Now it's exposing to Covid. A few decades ago it was exposing certain sets to AIDS.

Marc Robidoux

Tue, 13.VII.2021

Whatever in your religious fervour irks you about vaccine and vaccine development, you’d have to be living in a pretty remote desert island to deny that vaccines are one of the greatest achievements of mankind. Smallpox and Polio to name just 2, are all now a figment of history thanks to vaccines, and COVID19 is well on its way to the same place. Insulin allows diabetics to live normal lives. Anti-viral drugs allows HIV victims to live long lives. You may have been perfectly happy living in squalor and under the thumb of a feudal lord or the church or whatever master you like, but most of us today would find that miserable. The squalor was a direct result of lack of public health, and no Aristotelian science resolved that. The point of posting a picture of a smallpox victim, is to point out that death from these diseases was no walk in the park. No mention of Plague. Cholera, alone, was responsible for death and horrible agony throughout the middle ages and even up to recent times and today in less developed nations where they still live in misery because their public sanitation is not up to snuff. Following the same god, observing religious dogma, benefits? Not so much. If that’s all you do, you’ll be in misery, unless someone gets away from that to do the science and implement the public health measures.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Tue, 13.VII.2021

"Whatever in your religious fervour irks you about vaccine and vaccine development,"

Vaccines involve cultivating pathogens. Virus won't multiply in nutrition solution. They need living cells. Guess which ones are the standard right now?

News & Views: Why Were Fetal Cells Used to Make Certain Vaccines?

"you’d have to be living in a pretty remote desert island to deny that vaccines are one of the greatest achievements of mankind."

So are atomic bombs.

"Smallpox and Polio to name just 2, are all now a figment of history thanks to vaccines,"

Thankfully this happened - mainly - before the change in standard.

"and COVID19 is well on its way to the same place."

Thanks for the optimism ... I don't think so, right now.

"Insulin allows diabetics to live normal lives."

Normally long, but under abnormal circumstances. The Gonzagas of Mantua arguably lived more normally, but shorter lives.

"Anti-viral drugs allows HIV victims to live long lives."

No HIV (in Europe at least) in the Middle Ages.

"You may have been perfectly happy living in squalor and under the thumb of a feudal lord or the church or whatever master you like,"

I'm not happy living under the thumb of what seems to be shrinks.

Squalour in the Middle Ages is a trope of ...

Artistic License – History - TV Tropes

"but most of us today would find that miserable."

So would most in the Middle Ages, if that had been true.

"The squalor was a direct result of lack of public health,"

Soap box Hyde Park, speech for social medicine, but neither squalour nor lack of some kind of public health is even true.

"and no Aristotelian science resolved that."

It did. Or more properly, medicine back than was by Galene. But close enough to Aristotle.

"The point of posting a picture of a smallpox victim, is to point out that death from these diseases was no walk in the park."

In Europe, many survived. And in the country-side, risk was small.

"No mention of Plague."

Middle Ages doesn't equal the Plague years. Like Days of Noah doesn't equal the Flood. About similar proportions.

"Cholera, alone, was responsible for death and horrible agony throughout the middle ages"

Didn't even exist back then. Your history again is …

Artistic License – History - TV Tropes

"and even up to recent times and today in less developed nations where they still live in misery because their public sanitation is not up to snuff."

Strike out the word "even" and that matches what we do know of cholera.

"Following the same god, observing religious dogma, benefits? Not so much. If that’s all you do, you’ll be in misery, unless someone gets away from that to do the science and implement the public health measures."

Which people following the same God, namely monks and priests, did.

Marc Robidoux

Tue, 13.VII.2021

Cholera “Didn't even exist back then.” and “ neither squalour nor lack of some kind of public health is even true“ , spoken by the guy who thinks geocentrism and Noah’s flood are “true” - “many survived” - yes, in squalor and misery. Not sure who Galene was, but he never thought of inventing sewers to flow away the shit from the streets apparently, that was discovered much later to be the primary cause of Cholera, which existed but was not known to exist (perhaps because your god never saw it fit to reveal it to his followers perhaps?). I’m not aware that Galene came up with the discovery of germ theory and disease…

People following the same god, namely monks and priests, got away from the dogma to dwell in science, it wasn’t BECAUSE of the dogma or monotheism, but clearly because they were able to get out from under it to think for themselves. See Galileo, Giordano Bruno, etc. as examples.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wed, 14.VII.2021

“Cholera “Didn't even exist back then.” and “ neither squalour nor lack of some kind of public health is even true“ , spoken by the guy who thinks geocentrism and Noah’s flood are “true” - “many survived” - yes, in squalor and misery.”

Cholera didn't exist back then - in the relevant area. Spoken by a guy who looked it up, first European description of cholera is from 17th C. in a book about diseases of the East Indies.

// The disease appears in the European literature as early as 1642, from the Dutch physician Jakob de Bondt's description it in his De Medicina Indorum.[84] (The "Indorum" of the title refers to the East Indies. He also gave first European descriptions of other diseases.) //

Cholera - Wikipedia

Squalour is not true ...

// The first closed sewer constructed in Paris was designed by Hugues Aubird in 1370 on Rue Montmartre (Montmartre Street), and was 300 meters long. The original purpose of designing and constructing a closed sewer in Paris was less-so for waste management as much as it was to hold back the stench coming from the odorous waste water.[47] In Dubrovnik, then known as Ragusa (Latin name), the Statute of 1272 set out the parameters for the construction of septic tanks and channels for the removal of dirty water. Throughout the 14th and 15th century the sewage system was built, and it is still operational today, with minor changes and repairs done in recent centuries.[48] //

History of water supply and sanitation - Wikipedia

Why not earlier? Because cities were only then crowded enough to need that.

What was sanitation like in cities without sewers? Well, waste was carried to cess-pits and surrounding farmers went to them for fertiliser. Some of them had streets so hilly that any rain would drain the street clean (for instance Paris before the sewer), and where that wasn't the case, throwing your waste in the street was fined.

"Not sure who Galene was, but he never thought of inventing sewers to flow away the shit from the streets apparently, that was discovered much later to be the primary cause of Cholera, which existed but was not known to exist (perhaps because your god never saw it fit to reveal it to his followers perhaps?)."

It didn't exist in the Middle Ages in Europe.

"I’m not aware that Galene came up with the discovery of germ theory and disease…"

He came up with or inherited from Hippocrates a lot of good advice about sanitationary city planning. Early Middle Ages went away from large cities with Aquaeducts and started favouring smaller ones with dug wells for this very reason.

You don't need to know germs from a microscope to discover that putting a city next to a swamp is a health hasard.

"People following the same god, namely monks and priests, got away from the dogma to dwell in science, it wasn’t BECAUSE of the dogma or monotheism, but clearly because they were able to get out from under it to think for themselves."

The Hôtel-Dieu of Paris and lots of similar places involved doctors serving there for free (gave them experience for paying patients whom they served at home) because of the dogma that being kind to the poor is a good investment for eternity.

"See Galileo, Giordano Bruno, etc. as examples."

Neither of whom did the least bit for sanitation. Remember, we were talking about squalour, not about "superstition", as we both know I would not consider Geocentrism as such.

Marc Robidoux

Wed, 14.VII.2021

“ Cholera didn't exist back then“ - spoken by a guy who thinks nothing exists unless it is discovered and documented, and also believes the Sun revolves around the earth and Noah’s flood covered the whole earth.

You seem to think that because there were medical discoveries and some forays into medicine throughout the ages, there was no squalor or misery. Yeah, those 1370 sewers in Paris were surely helpful and improved sanitation, but it doesn’t eliminate all the squalor and misery that existed all over the place. Dying of smallpox, TB, Malaria, Polio, Cholera or any other number of diseases now prevented or eliminated was a dire way to go. Infant mortality, as well as being deadly to the infant, was painful for the parents, and drove them to procreate more, increasing the chance of maternal mortality, etc. etc. A total combination recipe for miserable existence. Note I didn’t say 100% of people lived in abject misery, but misery and squalor was prevalent, and present in areas where it is not today, and this is because of lack of sanitation and the resultant disease.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Wed, 14.VII.2021

"spoken by a guy who thinks nothing exists unless it is discovered and documented, and also believes the Sun revolves around the earth and Noah’s flood covered the whole earth."

Look here. The Western Europe of the Middle Ages had sufficient competence in medicine, partly thanks to Galene, to document a disease like cholera, if they had seen it. If so, the 1642 book would not have been the earliest Western documentation of it. And it would have retained the Latin name it had got in the Middle Ages, instead of getting a new Greek one.

"You seem to think that because there were medical discoveries and some forays into medicine throughout the ages, there was no squalor or misery."

Did I say "no squalour of misery" ever, anywhere? No. I am just saying the squalour in the Middle Ages was not prevalent, any more than now. Some forays? Whom are you kidding!

"Yeah, those 1370 sewers in Paris were surely helpful and improved sanitation, but it doesn’t eliminate all the squalor and misery that existed all over the place."

Now, "all over the place" is your claim, how about YOU try to give a decent link about it?

"Dying of smallpox,"

Or surviving it. Like, at the end of the Middle Ages, Europeans had immune systems able to survive smallpx very widely.

"TB"

Checking ... in the Middle ages, it was mentioned by : Avicenna and Rhazes, both from the Arab world, Arnaldus de Villa Nova from formerly such, namely Catalonia. Inquisitors in Medieval Hungary recorded pagan superstitions about it. Well, yes, it existed at least in the South and East outskirts of Europe. In France and England, TB and scrofula spread Renaissance and later, and in Italy it was present in the Renaissance.

History of tuberculosis - Wikipedia

Girolamo Fracastoro - Wikipedia

"Malaria"

Certainly did exist in the Mediterranean. And was often survived.

"Polio"

Doesn't seem to be deadly. In Egypt back in Pharaonic times, and in England, at least since 1789 (what a year!) No evidence I could see it was there in the Middle Ages in Europe : before 1789, there were lots of contacts with the Orient after the Middle Ages (though, admittedly, the Crusades could have provided an occasion).

"Cholera"

Medieval Europeans didn't travel all that much to India.

"or any other number of diseases now prevented or eliminated was a dire way to go."

So are diseases now extant.

"Infant mortality, as well as being deadly to the infant,"

Which was often enough baptised before. Confer abortion, which is mostly deadly to the foetus. Which is not baptised.

"was painful for the parents,"

Sure. But less so, perhaps than deaths of children now.

"and drove them to procreate more,"

Mortality as such drives people with some rationality left to procreate. Unless they are monks. Or nuns.

"increasing the chance of maternal mortality,"

Yes, did happen. Not all that prevalent from the stats I have studied in Medieval royalties, but it did happen.

"A total combination recipe for miserable existence."

No, procreating, having many children, and even if some die, having more left is not a recipe for a miserable existence.

"Note I didn’t say 100% of people lived in abject misery,"

And I didn't say 0 %.

"but misery and squalor was prevalent,"

Ah, we differ.

"present in areas where it is not today, "

While today has new areas of squalour.

"and this is because of lack of sanitation and the resultant disease."

Sanitation was adequate, disease was arguably somewhat more prevalent than now, but not so significantly everyone was in misery.

Bonus, you didn't feel sure who Galene was, check this guy:

Galen - Wikipedia

And sorry for spelling Galene rather than Galen ...

Marc Robidoux

Wed, 14.VII.2021

TLDR, I only have time to address one of your many attempts at gish-galloping: Yes, right, medical knowledge in the 1500’s was amply sufficient to eradicate Cholera if it had existed back then…I’ll take your word for it, you win.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thu, 15.VII.2021

It was amply sufficient to IDENTIFY and DESCRIBE cholera in the 1500’s if it had been there. They could describe smallpox accurately (and it was there), they could describe different types of TB accurately (though they didn’t link phthisis and scrofula as having same germs, attacking different tissues), so they could have identified cholera accurately if it had been there too.

It was not. In 1642, it was described as a disease of India or East Indies, in 1817 the first pandemic of it touching Europe started in Bombay.

Gish Gallop has very specific meaning, and adressing point after point in YOUR Gish Gallops is not that one.

Marc Robidoux

Thu, 15.VII.2021

Something else added to your long list of things you KNOW are true, geocentrism, global flood, inerrancy of the bible, middle ages medicine identifying and categorizing diseases, the list goes on.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thu, 15.VII.2021

Middle Ages medicine identifying and categorising diseases isn’t even controversial.

Get in touch with this guy:

Tim O'Neill

Marc Robidoux

Thu, 15.VII.2021

The facts are that medicine in the middle ages were steeped in superstition and ruled by Catholic doctrine. Surely there were some discoveries and developments, but to suggest that medieval “doctors” knew what Cholera was and could identify it or are you suggesting they could treat it? Another one of your delusions.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thu, 15.VII.2021

I said nothing about “knowing what it was” (i e germ theory). I did say sth about being able to describe it.

It is indeed totally “delusional” - but I don’t use that word - to imagine that any amount of superstition could have prevented that.

The meme is not accurately Medieval, and the mask was thought to prevent catching the disease … an idea which in the recent year has had a comeback.

Robidoux, after notification this was on my blog, wrote:

I see you hold your own KNOWledge in very high regard.

So do lots of people. When it comes to the Middle Ages, some have less reason than I. But that guy is able to gas on and on about any high regard for my own knowledge being some kind of delusion, why bother?