Antoniu Draculea Was Wrong - Very Wrong

Q

What if Vlad Tepes came back? Would the Orthodox or Catholic Church have to stop him?
https://www.quora.com/What-if-Vlad-Tepes-came-back-Would-the-Orthodox-or-Catholic-Church-have-to-stop-him/answer/Antoniu-Draculea-1

Antoniu Draculea

Amateur Historian

7.XI.2022

Vlad Tepes gave his life defending both Orthodox and Catholic christianity from the muslim menace.

He would have never been as violent as he was unless provoked as seriously as he was, by the muslim invaders.

The notion that the man was some sort of madman or monster is just that, a myth.

He was a very intelligent, very well educated (more educated that your average modern westerner) and very experienced knight and politician.

If he were to come back today he would likely try to lead a right wing european movement heavily focused on Christianity and if said churches were to have any wisdom in them, they would join him, trying to rather keep him moderate instead of trying to supress him.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

7.XI.2022

“never been as violent as he was unless provoked as seriously as he was,”

There is a Russian story he invited homeless beggars to a banquet and then killed them by burning the hall.

A Romanian beggar, or even a Turkish beggar in Romania is hardly a Turkish Janissary or comparable invader into Romania.

Antoniu Draculea

9.XI.2022

You forgot an essential part of the story.

He offered the beggars work.

Some accepted.

Some refused, prefering to be social parasites.

Social parasites in a time when their society was fighting for it’s very existence.

So he killed them.

Again, it would have been something he was forced into doing.

Crime and social parasitism is something his group just couldn’t afford when fighting for survival.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

9.XI.2022

I thought you were going to deny the story, but it seems you have a National Socialist to Communist view on the duty to work.

Plus, the story I heard didn’t mention him offering them work. What is your source for that one?

Plus, not having “social parasites” in your society means being outside the Church. Christ promised His Church : “the poor you have always among you”

The guys in Vlad’s “Christendom” were, if agreeing with this, worse than Turks, since Turks believe in almsgiving.

Antoniu Draculea

10.XI.2022

“but it seems you have a National Socialist to Communist view on the duty to work.”

You seem to confuse me noting what Vlad’s reasoning was with my own personal opinions, which is your problem (your lack of coherence), not mine.

The fact Vlad’s intention was to kill social parasites is something the folk legens explicitly mention so it’s not a National Socialist/Communist invention.

“Plus, the story I heard didn’t mention him offering them work. What is your source for that one?”

its what the local wallachian folk legends of Vlad state

VLAD ȚEPEȘ A ERADICAT HOȚIA SAU A FOST UN CRIMINAL NOTORIU?
https://thraxusares.wordpress.com/2019/04/18/vlad-tepes-a-eradicat-hotia-sau-a-fost-un-criminal-notoriu/

I was actually wrong when describing the matter.

According to the folk stories, he did gather them and gave them all work.

Initially they all worked but as time passed a good part of them ended up just sitting in their given accommodations, implicitly refusing to work and being what they had always been, parasites.

Vlad’s men called those present in the accommodations to a banquet.

Those who were out working were obviously not there to even hear the summoning.

So those who were out doing their assigned jobs were obviously spared this grim fate.

“Plus, not having “social parasites” in your society means being outside the Church. Christ promised His Church : “the poor you have always among you”’

I think it’s quite obvious Vlad wasn’t exactly a model christian.

He was a lion, defending home and kin.

And when dividing blame for what happened, the muslim invaders are the ones who deserve the bulk of said blame.

“The guys in Vlad’s “Christendom” “

Considering such things were pretty much unseen in Christian Europe and were instead something he learned from the turks who held him captive, I’d say no.

This was an extreme reaction of a ruler faced with an extreme threath.

And ignoring history/pretending like it didn’t work just because we didn’t like what he did, is not a sane response.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

11.XI.2022

St. Martin of Tours

“Crime and social parasitism is something his group just couldn’t afford when fighting for survival.”

Your words.

“You seem to confuse me noting what Vlad’s reasoning was with my own personal opinions, which is your problem (your lack of coherence), not mine.”

You didn’t formulate above quote so as to make it clear it was his reasoning and you disagreed with it.

“The fact Vlad’s intention was to kill social parasites is something the folk legens explicitly mention so it’s not a National Socialist/Communist invention.”

I didn’t pretend National Socialists or Communists invented it. I do insist only that kind of people can endorse what he did. He was a pioneer for their evil ideologies.

“its what the local wallachian folk legends of Vlad state … According to the folk stories, he did gather them and gave them all work “

Not what I found in your source.

Citing, plus google translate (tell me if anything is wrong in it)

_______________________
Ei bine, formula ”Vlad Țepes a curățat țara de cerșetori” poate fi la fel de bine redată și prin ”atrocitățile împotriva bolnavilor, săracilor, oamenilor străzii și a nelegiuiților” comise de voivodul medieval. E doar un alt mod de a descrie același lucru, dar cu tenta pe care ar reda’o cel care o face.

Well, the formula "Vlad Țepes cleansed the country of beggars" can be equally well rendered by the "atrocities against the sick, the poor, the street people and the wicked" committed by the medieval voivode. It's just another way of describing the same thing, but with the tone that the person doing it would give.
_____________________________

Citing, etc.

____________________________
Țin astfel de fapte de barbaria medievală, are de’a face cu personalitatea voievodului, sau se încearcă manipularea cititorului de către istoric?

Do such facts belong to medieval barbarism, does it have to do with the voivode's personality, or is the historian trying to manipulate the reader?
_______________________________

In fact, Medieval manners were usually very far from this barbarism.

Citing etc

________________________________
Vlad Țepes poate fi pentru unii un model astăzi, dar pentru cei mai mulți metodele lui ar părea desuete și comune unei epoci apuse demult. Sigur, orice crimă nu poate fi scuzabilă oricît de patriot este povestitorul, dar puterea exemplului în epoca medievală a funcționat, iar tehnica a fost des aplicată de domnitor.

Vlad Țepes may be a role model for some today, but for most his methods would seem obsolete and common to a bygone era. Of course, any crime cannot be excused no matter how patriotic the storyteller is, but the power of example worked in the medieval era, and the technique was often applied by the ruler.
________________________________

No, the technique was not often applied by other rulers, at least in Western Christendom.

Citing etc

_____________________________________
Un lucru este cert, Vlad Țepeș a vrut să schimbe ordinea lucrurilor din țară, impunîndu’și puterea domnească pînă în păturile cele mai sărace.

One thing is certain, Vlad Țepeș wanted to change the order of things in the country, imposing his royal power even on the poorest strata.
____________________________________

Yes, he stood for "change" - a rebellion against the social received order.

Citing etc:

_______________________________________
De asemenea, spun legendele, îi privea pe bolnavi, vagabonzi şi cerşetori ca pe nişte hoţi, iar pentru a’i pedepsi i’a invitat pe toţi reprezentanţii acestor categorii la Curtea Domnească din Tîrgovişte, la un ospăţ. După ce au mîncat şi au băut, domnitorul i’ar fi întrebat dacă ar vrea să nu mai fie niciodată săraci. După ce a primit un răspuns afirmativ, a ordonat ca hala să fie închisă şi incendiată. Nimeni nu ar fi supravieţuit.

Also, the legends say, he regarded the sick, vagabonds and beggars as thieves, and to punish them he invited all the representatives of these categories to the Royal Court in Tîrgovişte, for a feast. After they ate and drank, the ruler would have asked them if they would like to never be poor again. After receiving an affirmative answer, he ordered that the hall be closed and set on fire. No one would have survived.
_____________________________

Please note, contrary to what you affirmed, and this is what I had read myself, he didn't offer them jobs. He gave an indeterminate offer, which some might have seen as an offer of totally unhoped for generosity, and others more realistic as offers for jobs - as even a dishwasher in his court or even a gardener was probably not exactly poor.

He offered them death - and gave it to them on them answering "yes" to a question he regarded as connected. He chose to regard the answer "I'd like to never be poor again" as equivalent "I agree to whatever you have in mind so I am never poor again" - but that is very far from equivalent. He was a dishonest and evil person for doing this, and "democracy" or "education" not being there in Medieval Wallachia (but it was in Medieval Germany or France!) is not an excuse.

Citing etc:

____________________________________
Vlad Ţepeş a vrut să scape ţara de tîlharii de drumul mare, care se ascundeau prin codri şi, ieşind, îi jefuiau pe trecători, mai cu seamă pe negustorii care duceau cu ei mărfuri şi bani.

Vlad Ţepes wanted to rid the country of highway robbers, who hid in the woods and, coming out, robbed passers-by, especially merchants who were carrying goods and money.
____________________________________

Good thing. Very good thing. To merchants. But to beggars, and anyone just suspected of being a thief even if he wasn't, no, he was himself the highway robber.

Citing etc:

__________________________________
A pus potere, adică cete de ostaşi însărcinaţi cu menţinerea ordinii – am zice azi, jandarmi – de au împînzit ţara şi, cum îi prindeau pe tîlhari, îi şi tăiau sau spînzurau sau trăgeau în ţeapă. Şi atît de rău i’a speriat pe hoţi, că la puţină vreme după aceea puteai cutreiera ţara în lung şi în lat, şi prin şes, şi prin păduri, şi nu’ţi mai era teamă de a fi atacat de tîlhari.

He set up police, that is, squads of soldiers tasked with maintaining order - we would say today, gendarmes - who swarmed the country and, as they caught the robbers, cut them or hanged them or impaled them. And he scared the thieves so badly, that shortly after that you could roam the country far and wide, both through the plains and through the forests, and you were no longer afraid of being attacked by robbers.
_________________________________

Obvious he needed some sort of police for the policies, both the good and the atrocious. But thanks for informing me there was no police in Wallachia before him.

By contrast, Muslim Caliphates had police, and this was not the case with Medieval Europe.

Citing etc:

__________________________________
Apoi, ar mai exista şi exemplul ”celebrului negustor căruia i s’a furat o pungă cu 150 de florini de aur. Ţepeş îl descoperă pe hoţ, dă ordin să i se dea punga negustorului, dar mai pune un florin de aur în ea, iar negustorul se întoarce şi spune că are 151 de florini în pungă. Ţepeş atunci îi spune că poate să păstreze banii, dar dacă nu i’ar fi spus că are mai mulţi, l’ar fi executat.

Then, there would also be the example of "the famous merchant who had a bag with 150 gold florins stolen. Tepeş discovers the thief, orders the bag to be given to the merchant, but puts another gold florin in it, and the merchant returns and says that he has 151 florins in the bag. Tepeş then tells him that he can keep the money, but if he hadn't told him that he had more, he would have executed him.
__________________________________

What if the merchant hadn't counted the money? Again, to people not thieves (and neither social parasites nor merchants not counting the extra florin are thieves) he was the highway robber. Only to highway robbers, he was justice, and only because he didn't like competition.

Citing etc

___________________________________
După ce se striga faţă de toţi pe uliţele tîrgului vina ce’o avea osînditul, acesta era dezbrăcat şi în huiduielile mulţimii adunate îndura chinuri cumplite, căci nu murea deîndată. Îşi primiseră pedeapsa mulţi oameni de prin sate şi din scursura tîrgurilor, prinşi fie cu mîna în chimirul altuia, fie înşelînd la socoteală, fie cerşind mila gospodarului de treabă.

After shouting to everyone in the streets of the market the guilt of the condemned man, he was undressed and in the booing of the gathered crowd he endured terrible torments, because he did not die immediately. Many people from the villages and from the course of the fairs had received their punishment, caught either with their hand in someone else's fancy, or cheating on the account, or begging for the mercy of the landlord.
______________________________________

Did google translate get the last thing right?

______________________________________
fie cerşind mila gospodarului de treabă.

or begging for the mercy of the householder.
______________________________________

Vlad impaled people for being behind the land rent? He recalls the evil measures in Ireland, when people who were contracted to live on potatoes were required to pay the rent in crops or cattle that hadn't failed, even if they died or went to America after paying.

Note, while serfs in Western Europe were not exactly totally well off, they were better off than an unlucky tenant in Wallachia.

Citing etc

_________________________________________
Se scurseră aproape patru ani sub domnia lui Vlad Ţepeş Voievod şi treburile ţării intraseră pe făgaşul bun: mai puţine hoţii, drumurile mai sigure, dările încasate la timp, ogoarele lucrate de la un capăt la celălalt.

Almost four years had passed under the rule of Vlad Ţepeș Voivod and the affairs of the country had entered the good path: fewer thieves, safer roads, taxes collected on time, fields worked from one end to the other.
__________________________________________

At too great a price. So, it was a bad path. Calling it a good one is National Socialist or Stalinist or Leninist heresy.

“I think it’s quite obvious Vlad wasn’t exactly a model christian.

“He was a lion, defending home and kin.”

His tactics are more reminiscent of hyaenas. They also don’t mind the stench of corpses. The acts here described are not acts of defense of Christendom.

“Considering such things were pretty much unseen in Christian Europe and were instead something he learned from the turks who held him captive, I’d say no.

“This was an extreme reaction of a ruler faced with an extreme threath.”

Perhaps even the extreme reaction of doing the Turks’ work worse than they did?

Yeah, I call that kind of reaction very extreme. Extreme servility.

“And ignoring history/pretending like it didn’t work just because we didn’t like what he did, is not a sane response.”

I did not ignore history. You did by inventing he had offered people work, when all he offered the poor was death.

EDIT:

This part got stuck on a notepad:

“Initially they all worked but as time passed a good part of them ended up just sitting in their given accommodations, implicitly refusing to work and being what they had always been, parasites.

“Those who were out working were obviously not there to even hear the summoning.”

Where exactly in the post did your source state this? By the way - are you Thraxus Ares or is someone else?

Antoniu Draculea

11.XI.2022

St. Martin of Tours

“Your words.”

Was describing his view on the matter. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough but that was the intent.

“At too great a price. So, it was a bad path. Calling it a good one is National Socialist or Stalinist or Leninist heresy.”

I find it impossible to give personal verdicts without knowing the situation ‘’on the ground’’ at the time very well so I abstain from giving such personal verdicts.

So this is my personal position on the matter.

“He was a pioneer for their evil ideologies.”

Slavery (‘’do what the master says = work, or die) had existent for eons since Vlad.

“No, the technique was not often applied by other rulers, at least in Western Christendom.”

I explicitly said it was not a common practice in the West but it was a practice among the turks. As a matter of fact, Vlad learned it from them.

“Please note, contrary to what you affirmed, and this is what I had read myself, he didn't offer them jobs.”

You missed the part, here I will copy it here:

A trimis poruncă pînă în cel mai depărtat colţ de ţară să vină la el cine e bătrîn, bolnav, orb, şchiop, sărac de minte. I’a chemat şi pe vagabonzii ceia ce băteau uliţele fără nici un rost, de s’a adunat la un loc mulţime de norod.

Vlad Vodă le’a trimis vorbă că are pentru toţi de lucru pe lîngă curtea domnească şi fiecare să meargă să’şi aleagă unde ar vrea să muncească dînd o mînă de ajutor. Care n’o găsi ceva pe potrivă nu va fi izgonit, însă bine ar fi pentru el să’şi aibă colţişorul său în care să’şi dobîndească cele de trebuinţă.

S’au împrăştiat toţi prin dughenele meşteşugarilor, pe la grajduri şi prin bucătării, şi s’au apucat de treabă cum îi ţineau puterile. Din poruncă domnească seara li s’a pregătit un ospăţ îmbelşugat. A doua zi, cei mai mulţi dintre ei s’au dus la trebile lor, dar încă mulţi au rămas locului fără a mai face ceva…

Înainte de ora prînzului a venit la ei un om de’al domnitorului şi i’a chemat iar la ospăţ, să bea şi să mănînce pe săturate. Cei care se apucaseră de treabă erau la lucru; aşa că de pomana din partea lui Vodă au avut parte doar leneşii şi nevolnicii.

Translation:

He sent a command to the farthest corner of the country to come to him who is old, sick, blind, lame, feeble-minded. He also called the vagabonds who were wandering the streets for no reason, because a crowd of people had gathered in one place.

Vlad Vodă sent word to them that he has work for everyone near the royal court and that everyone should go and choose where they would like to work, lending a helping hand. Whoever does not find something suitable will not be kicked out, but it would be good for him to have his own little corner where he can get what he needs.

They all scattered through the craftsmen's sheds, around the stables and through the kitchens, and set to work as best they could. By royal command, a sumptuous feast was prepared for them in the evening. The next day, most of them went about their business, but many still remained there without doing anything...

Before lunch time, a man from the ruler came to them and called them again to the feast, to drink and eat to their fill. Those who had set to work were at work; so the alms from Vodă were shared only by the lazy and the indolent.

[end of translation]

So it does.

The man was going to start a war decisive for the future of his nation and he wanted his nation to be in tip top shape so his reaction was clearing it of any crime and parrasitism.

“But thanks for informing me there was no police in Wallachia before him.”

There was no centralized police no, but every noble/city had the duty of making sure his lands were safe.

“What if the merchant hadn't counted the money?”

I believe the idea is that the merchant did carefully count his money and he would have been guilty of fraud had he lied to the wallachian state.

“Did google translate get the last thing right?”

What? That beggars were among those publicly executed via torture? Yes.

You usually wouldn’t see it used on common thieves, low level frauds and beggars but yeah.

“Vlad impaled people for being behind the land rent? “

No.

My understanding is that he executed thieves, those who comitted fraud and beggars.

“His tactics are more reminiscent of hyaenas. They also don’t mind the stench of corpses.”

The point I was making is that he was ready to do anything no matter how brutal to win.

“The acts here described are not acts of defense of Christendom.”

You seem to be confusing the methods with the purpose.

As for his methods, we have explicit records from the time noting they worked.

The Ottoman Sultain himself admited defeat as result of the psychological warfare and general brutal nature of the conflict and abandoned his expedition.

“Perhaps even the extreme reaction of doing the Turks’ work worse than they did?”

Not sure what you mean.

What ‘’turk’s work’’ did Vlad do?

“Where exactly in the post did your source state this?”

Not sure what you’re asking here.

Can you please rephrase.

“By the way - are you Thraxus Ares or is someone else?”

I have no idea who this person is. Never heard this name before.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

11.XI.2022

St. Martin of Tours

"Was describing his view on the matter. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough but that was the intent."

Thank you for clarifying.

"Slavery (‘’do what the master says = work, or die) had existent for eons since Vlad."

You mean before Vlad?

Two problems:

a) slavery did not always, not even usually, imply the right for masters to kill someone for not working;
b) there were usually rules about who was a slave, and this excluded the slavehunt against free persons, especially within the own nation.

"it was a practice among the turks. As a matter of fact, Vlad learned it from them."

Like examples?

______________________
Unele fapte din domnia lui Vlad Ţepeş le aflăm din documente vrednice, oarecum, de crezare; altele însă, din multele povestiri ce au apărut după domnia lui. Iar din aceste povestiri, unele par a avea un grăunte de adevăr, altele însă par a fi născocite de imaginaţia înspăimîntată, sau duşmănoasă, sau năstruşnică, sau chiar fantastică a unor contemporani.

Una dintre aceste povestiri ne spune cum a curăţat el ţara de hoţi, de cerşetori, de trîntori, de bolnavi şi de bătrîni, care nu foloseau ţării cu nimic, ba, zicea el, mîncau degeaba pîinea altora.

We find some facts from the reign of Vlad Ţepeş from documents worthy, somewhat, of belief; others, however, from the many stories that appeared after his reign. And from these stories, some seem to have a grain of truth, but others seem to be invented by the frightened, or hostile, or mischievous, or even fantastical imaginations of some contemporaries.

One of these stories tells us how he cleansed the country of thieves, beggars, idlers, the sick and the elderly, who were of no use to the country, but, he said, they ate other people's bread for nothing.
______________________

The idea of "cleansing of beggars, idlers, sick, elderly ..." is already bad.

In the following, what you cited, this was by the way what I was asking about, can I have a reference from some institution of ethnology or sth on this being part of the story originally?

"The man was going to start a war decisive for the future of his nation and he wanted his nation to be in tip top shape so his reaction was clearing it of any crime and parrasitism."

And this may be why he ultimately lost the war.

"What? That beggars were among those publicly executed via torture? Yes."

_____________________
fie cerşind mila gospodarului de treabă.
or begging for the mercy of the householder.
_____________________

This doesn't sound like a beggar to me, but like a tenant or serf who feels overburdened or overtaxed by the landlord.

"As for his methods, we have explicit records from the time noting they worked."

For a time.

"The Ottoman Sultain himself admited defeat as result of the psychological warfare and general brutal nature of the conflict and abandoned his expedition."

I recall Vlad died fighting against the Turks who, after that, pretty much took over. My bad memory?

"Basarab Laiotă returned to Wallachia with Ottoman support, and Vlad died fighting against them in late December 1476 or early January 1477.[127][120] In a letter written on 10 January 1477, Stephen III of Moldavia related that Vlad's Moldavian retinue had also been massacred.[128] According to the "most reliable sources", Vlad's army of about 2,000 was cornered and destroyed by a Turkish-Basarab force of 4,000 near Snagov.[129] The exact circumstances of his death are unclear."

Vlad the Impaler - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler#Third_rule_and_death

120) Hasan 2013, p. 156. = Hasan, Mihai Florin (2013). "Aspecte ale relațiilor matrimoniale munteano-maghiare din secolele XIV–XV [Aspects of the Hungarian-Wallachian matrimonial relations of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries]". Revista Bistriței (in Romanian). XXVII: 128–159. ISSN 1222-5096. Retrieved 13 September 2016.
127) Andreescu 1991, p. 147. = Andreescu, Ștefan (1991). "Military actions of Vlad Țepeș in South-Eastern Europe in 1476". In Treptow, Kurt W. (ed.). Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad Țepeș. East European Monographs, Distributed by Columbia University Press. pp. 135–151. ISBN 978-0-88033-220-0.
128) Treptow 2000, p. 166. = reptow, Kurt W. (2000). Vlad III Dracula: The Life and Times of the Historical Dracula. The Center of Romanian Studies. ISBN 978-973-98392-2-8.
129) Florescu & McNally 1989, p. 174. = Florescu, Radu R.; McNally, Raymond T. (1989). Dracula, Prince of Many Faces: His Life and his Times. Back Bay Books. ISBN 978-0-316-28656-5.

"What ‘’turk’s work’’ did Vlad do?"

Torturing shirkers. See your words above:

"it was a practice among the turks. As a matter of fact, Vlad learned it from them."

"I have no idea who this person is. Never heard this name before."

You posted a link to his blog post.

And the piece you cited, it seems they had just 24 hours to find something to do.