Before Watching the Clip

Before Watching the Clip · When watching the clip

Here is a video featuring a smaller clip from a longer one.

The Grand Canyon PROVES Noah's Ark? w/ Dr. John Bergsma
Pints With Aquinas | 21.VIII.2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhj1A97Rm3Q

These answers to others' comments were done before watching it.

I

Wicked Felina

I think we are hearing the Evangelical in him popping out. Even Saint Pope John Paul II openly accepted the age of the earth.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Too bad for Antipope Wojtyla ....

II

Wicked Felina

Should have discussed the Epic of Gilgamesh. He needs to give a good answer for that story.

Hans Georg Lundahl

If Noah's Flood happened, the writers of Gilgamesh (and its included flashback about a survivor of the Flood supposedly still living) were descended from Noah and his sons.

This means they started out knowing the correct story.

What are the essential variations done to it?

• cause of Flood and Ark is not a single God, but two opposed (about this issue) divine brothers (Enlil causing Flood, Enki causing ark)
• Noah is still alive, immortal, and consulted (by a man somewhat reminiscent of Nimrod or his descendant Ninus)
• individual immortality is not for man (except Noah), but collective immortality in a city makes up for it.

Does that answer your problem?

Dalton Davidson

@hglundahl it causes far more questions than answers lol

johnmacrae2006

@daltondavidson7997

I doubt you care what this random thinks, but I think that the Genesis account is accurate. It says that the ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat, (there is some very interesting evidence for the ark being located there) at such an elevation that the local flood explanation doesn’t wash.

So apparently the entire earth was covered in water up to and perhaps over 20,000 ft above sea level.

Dalton Davidson

@johnmacrae2006 I don’t doubt that. But I don’t commit a literal reading of Genesis to justify my faith either. I worry that at some point those who do will hear some piece of history that shakes their faith in Genesis to the point they lose faith in God and His Son.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@daltondavidson7997 "I don’t commit a literal reading of Genesis to justify my faith either."

The Church Fathers did.

"those who do will hear some piece of history that shakes their faith in Genesis"

Why should it, unless they overestimate the reliability of that "history"?

Origen and Augustine were aware of Egyptian histories contradicting the Genesis account and obviously dismissed them.

What questions, btw @daltondavidson7997 ?

Dalton Davidson

@hglundahl I just read up on Augustine’s Literal Commentary on Genesis, which is a departure from his previous works that were more allegorical commentaries. And even in his literal commentary, it is not wholly literal in our sense. Even pausing at one point, he muses whether an interpretation he put forth is an “altogether absurd and literal-minded, fleshly train of thought.” To take a stance that Augustine’s reading of Genesis is as literal as a young earth creationist in modern times seems a bit naive. He still states that ordinary 24-hour days are “not at all like the [days of Genesis 1].” These days are an accommodation to which “the Scriptural style comes down to the level of little ones and adjusts to their capacity.”

Hans Georg Lundahl

@daltondavidson7997 "And even in his literal commentary, it is not wholly literal in our sense."

I am very aware that he favoured a one moment creation, while most modern young earth creationists are six day creationists.

However, you are mainly bluffing.

"which is a departure from his previous works that were more allegorical commentaries."

You have not shown that. For instance, when did he make any previous commentary on Genesis? Is De Genesi ad Litteram liber imperfectus a previous one? Is it totally allegorical? I don't think the latter is the case.

"Even pausing at one point, he muses whether an interpretation he put forth is an “altogether absurd and literal-minded, fleshly train of thought.”"

Fine, would you mind providing the context? I am very sure it was not literal globality of the Flood or literal chronologies of Genesis 5 and 11.

"He still states that ordinary 24-hour days are “not at all like the [days of Genesis 1].”"

More precisely, in books V and VI of De Genesi ad Litteram Libri XII, he gives his train of thought on:

• God creating all in one moment
• angels (created in that one moment) taking six moments to see God's total creation apart from themselves
• each (good) angel taking the moment in two moments, namely an "evening" moment of seing the things in themselves and a "morning" moment to see them in God
• and the vision of Moses of Genesis 1being communicated by good angels, through what they saw.

I agree, that is not considering the six days of Genesis as our days of 24 hours. BUT just in case you missed it, in book VI, at the end of this presentation, he actually goes out of his way to say that a more humdrum view of six literal 24 hour days is not heretical and good enough for beginners.

In book I he had been speaking of how day and night would work in relation to what we would call time zones, for the days previous to creation of the Sun. So, he was very far from discounting humdrum literal six times 24 hours literalism as nonsense one should shy away from.

"These days are an accommodation to which “the Scriptural style comes down to the level of little ones and adjusts to their capacity.”"

Yeah, no doubt some of the little ones among his listeners found his idea somewhat above their capacity - or simply taste. Not sure they got that point across to him.

Now, the Church Fathers and other early writers who agreed with his view are:

• Philo
• Clement
• Origen
• himself.

This not quite literal view about the six days, as said, has no bearing on accepting any kind of non-literality to globality of the Flood or shortness of the history already past, this Biblical one contrasting with Egyptian and Babylonian accounts.

So, tell me more about what questions of history the literalists would meet if most CF actually disagreed with St. Augustine and took six days as six literal 24 hour periods, and all agreed with him on the other topics of global Flood and short timeline of actual history, the Bible missing nothing ....

III

Wicked Felina

Grand Canyon is layers of sea on top of sea, on top of sea. That takes a LITTLE bit longer than 6 thousand yrs. Little bit.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Or multiple layers of sediment within a single Flood, which was more than one event.

David R

@hglundahl absolutely not. That’s not what the evidence shows. You can’t just make something up to fit a world view. That’s called being dishonest.

Paiden Hutchens

Either that, or, extremely quick moving water over a shorter period of time.

Broken Vessel

The evidence is what it is. You are interpreting it on a philosophical presupposition, just as Christians. You don’t know if anything you said is true. And yet, you are very confident in that.

Scrap Dog

@hglundahl that’s not how sedimentary layers work

Connor McPhillips

@brokenvessel8886 the theory for the three flood layers are the lowest is from the initial flooding, and then the next layer would be deposited while the water is sitting there, and the third layer would be from receding waters

Broken Vessel

@connormcphillips9008 yes, I’m aware.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@davidr2299 "That’s not what the evidence shows."

Tell me what part of the evidence clearly shows the opposite?

Hans Georg Lundahl

OK, @scrapdog2113 !

What part of sedimentation works differently?

Hans Georg Lundahl

@connormcphillips9008 I have heard of six Flood layers, all from while the waters are running around (not exactly sitting) there.

IV

Forrest L

I think the episode of Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World does a good job of explaining why a global flood was unlikely. In order to really maintain it, you would have to suppose God performed some massive miracles (like restoring/preserving all of the plant and aquatic life that would have naturally died) and tampered with the evidence (like the geological and evolutionary records). Of course, God is all powerful and could do stuff like this, but it seems a little far fetched to me that God would give us reason so that we could understand the natural world and how it manifests his glory only to completely subvert it like that. I think Occam's Razor would say that the simplest explanation is that there was no global flood and scripture is trying to convey spiritual truths, not naturalistic ones.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I don't think there is tampering with the evidence on God's side, I think there is systematic misreading of the evidence on the side of Evolution and Deep Time believers.

"scripture is trying to convey spiritual truths, not naturalistic ones."

Oh, you believe every Calvinist, Lutheran, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist who dies without converting to Catholicism is damned? That's the spiritual truth if you ask Origen.

St. Augustine in City of God makes doubly and trebly sure to say both the spiritual and the material or historic truth of the account must be held.

Connor McPhillips

How would you explain why great flood myths appear all over the world in almost every religion ever made?

Night Yew

@connormcphillips9008 The explanation was that those myths originate in areas where local floods are expected and were all based off of different local flooding experiences.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@nightyew2160 I think Occam would favour a single Flood (in his earthly life he was Young Earth Creationist, by the way)

Connor McPhillips

@nightyew2160 a lot of the flood myths do present a time line like the Bible does with the generation list, and the epic of Gilgamesh does with a list of kings’ reigns which plausibly happen around the same time

TheJollyViking

@hglundahl Why would Occam's Razor make you think that flood myths existing in areas where local floods are common (coastal regions, islands, areas with large flooding rivers) and not existing where they are uncommon (northeastern and central Europe, Iran, Tibet, the Eurasian Steppe, north-west Africa) mean that a single global flood is more like? Doesn't it seem more likely that flood myths came from the floods people were dealing with and so the people who didn't deal with them didn't create stories about them?

Hans Georg Lundahl

@thejollyviking8083 The Altais are in the Eurasian Steppe.

They have a Flood Myth.

[In the following, I admit to not finding it, because I searched for "Altai" instead of "Altaic" ... now I found it:

Creation vs. Evolution : What Can the Altaic Flood Legend Teach about the Real Flood
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2016/09/what-can-altaic-flood-legend-teach.html

Linking to:

Flood Stories from Around the World
by Mark Isaak.
# Altaic (central Asia):
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Altaic]

TheJollyViking

@hglundahl I'll admit that I haven't heard of this flood myth before (where is this recorded, out of curiosity?), but I do find it interesting that even in this example we have evidence of a massive flood which took place there.

David R

@connormcphillips9008 simple, local floods. Local to the Mediterranean where most of civilization was concentrated at the the time or passed down myths from much older civilizations during the younger dryas. The “flood” could very well be referring to ice caps melting during the end of the last ice age and rapidly raising levels.

quadrga

Plant life is largely preserved by seeds. Not sure why that would even be an issue. Some plant life would've survived though. Also it's a flood, water, so aquatic life would not have a problem except for turbulence and receding waters onto dry land. Many areas in the ocean would be less turbulent than others. Evolutionary records is theory. It's a worldview, a schema, for interpreting things. Largely this is a biblical issue and to what degree of authority one would give it.

TheJollyViking

@quadrga Wouldn't the mixing of salt water and fresh water kill virtually every fresh water fish that existed?

GH (DavGre)

Not to mention what would Noah’s family have done to repopulate the Earth if they were the only remaining humans on Earth? It would make sense that a local flood is easier to explain, more likely to be supported by science, and wouldn’t have required additional explanations of genetic history vs biblical history.

Anthony Polonkay

@thejollyviking8083 no. When you mix a large amount of salt water with a large amount of fresh water like in the food they largely do not mix, and firm seperate zones of salty water below a layer of fresh water. Animals thar absolutly required salt wate would just stay in or near the salty part of the column, and the animals that required the fresh would stay in the fresh water part of the collumn. Amd for salt water animals that were required to surface for air like whales and sea lions, and such temporarily going up through the fresh water for a breath and then going back into the salty area would not really be any kimd of issue for them,

Killian Miller

I think it is possible that some catastrophic flooding event did occur, and the story was exaggerated in some ways for the legendary genre to convey more important truths (like how the Ark mirrors the Church today and the Flood prefigures Baptism). Early Genesis chapters have a very figurative genre but that doesn’t mean the events didn’t happen in some manner. The church does seem to teach that Adam and Eve were real people and not merely figurative characters, but it also recognizes figurative language in the story such that it doesn’t intend to be a cosmos/origin of species textbook .

TheJollyViking

@anthonypolonkay2681 Interesting. Why did the layer of fresh water on top of the ocean disappear?

Also, I'm familiar with this happening in the case of rain filling up an area that has salt water in it, but I wasn't aware this happened with the more volatile water mixing that happens during floods.

Anthony Polonkay

@DavGre if the biblical account of creation and humanity is literally true, and we take into account the modern genetic evidence of mutation rates intergenerationally, then it would mean the farther back in time you go the better off people were genetically. If the farther you go back the less mutational load exist, and especially if it compounds(which it most Likly does, because once you break one part of a system it becomes easier to break more. Redundancy can slow this issue but not stop it) then it stands to reason that 6 people roughly 45 hundred years ago would be in more than enough genetic health to reproduce with one another, and create stable healthy populations. Although Saud genetic bottle neck would still cause harm which is likly why the age drop off after the flood is so much more rapid than before the flood. And it seems to have more or less hit a point of egress roughly before king David's time. Ever since then people get roughly 80 to 100 years alive, and no more.

91Albertus

But why would God gave a promise that He will not destroy humanity with water ever again, if it was only a local flood? Because we have local floods to this day where people die.

Augustinian

@91Albertus Because people don't actually believe Scripture anymore

TheJollyViking

@91Albertus If the flood happened during a time when all of humanity lived in, say, the Middle East, could not a local flood have killed all of humanity? Why does Alaska have to be flooded if no one lived there?

91Albertus

@thejollyviking8083 Well, I guess, that's a possible explanation.

εїзrg

I think it might have happened, because it seems to be in the memory of different ancient religions, my roommate is from India and she was telling me they also have a story about a flood, I think probably the extent of it might have been different from what the Bible says but I think something happened

Hans Georg Lundahl

@thejollyviking8083 1) right now I find neither my source, nor the blog post where I reblogged it;
2) there is, as for the Black Sea, no historic record of a local Flood there. The big Flood is a hypothesis by Geologists - which could, unlike Black Sea, coincide with that of Noah.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@davidr2299 "The “flood” could very well be referring to ice caps melting during the end of the last ice age and rapidly raising levels."

Except they would not cause the earth to be covered in water as all or most of these stories say.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@thejollyviking8083 "the mixing of salt water and fresh water"

No such thing as salt water back then, oceans and inland seas have raised the salt level since then.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@Augustinian91 That would not explain God breaking his promise.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@thejollyviking8083 "when all of humanity lived in, say, the Middle East,"

Could you identify such a thing archaeologically?

Where I put the pre-Flood world, humanity is all over Africa, Eurasia and down to Java.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@DavGre "what would Noah’s family have done to repopulate the Earth if they were the only remaining humans on Earth?"

What's the exact problem?

Forrest L

@connormcphillips9008 flooding is a relatively common occurrence that many parts of the world experience and sometimes these are very severe. It makes sense that different cultures all have stories that tell of a particularly catastrophic flood in our ancient past because these would be easy for their imaginations to grasp. When these stories are compared, we find that they are supposed to have taken place a different time periods and the details are often differ more and more the further away they get from each other, which suggests independent origins of these tales, perhaps based on real events, but nevertheless localized to areas where these cultures belonged. And if we take them to mean that the characters of their stories were truly the only survivors (and they went on to establish these particular cultures), then they wouldn't really square with each other who all claim the same thing. I think the best explanation is that these are just separate legends that developed independently that were designed to be memorable for the generations to pass down, and that they ultimately were trying to convey lessons about morality, God, and their place in creation.

Xerxes2005@Xerxes2005‧2 abonnés‧

@connormcphillips9008 Because floods happen all over the world, maybe?

GH (DavGre)

@hglundahl incest is the problem

Hans Georg Lundahl

Hi, @Xerxes2005 .

Can Paris recall when the Seine flooded the Zouave at Pont de l'Alma without imagining the world wide flood went on repeat and they all came out of the Ark?

Hans Georg Lundahl

@DavGre (GH) marrying cousins is incest in the canon law, but wasn't in the Mosaic or previous laws.

So, Shem's sons could marry Japheth's and Ham's daughters, Japheth's sons could marry Shem's and Ham's daughters, and Ham's sons could marry Shem's and Japheth's daughters without offending God.

If you meant the genetic thing called inbreeding, it doesn't actually produce new bad genes, only brings out old bad ones quicker. This means the genetic perfection of the pre-Flood people able to live to 950 or, with some more defect, 600 years, could face this inbreeding without destroying our possibility to live to hundred and sometimes beyond.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@forrestl5982 "When these stories are compared, we find that they are supposed to have taken place a different time periods"

The first victim of inaccuracies in oral tradition is chronology.

"and the details are often differ more and more the further away they get from each other,"

The details often actually converge to the Biblical story, ...

"which suggests independent origins of these tales, perhaps based on real events, but nevertheless localized to areas where these cultures belonged."

... which suggests same origin.

Why would even one culture take a localised flooding as a world wide flood, when the most likely route for survivors would be to the edge of the flood waters anyway?

"And if we take them to mean that the characters of their stories were truly the only survivors (and they went on to establish these particular cultures), then they wouldn't really square with each other who all claim the same thing."

Unless all of these cultures in fact do descend from the sole survivors.

V

Joe D

Matt, I like how you interview, you seem to always ask/say what I would ask/say

On your show, I would really like to hear from those serious Catholics who believe the universe is thousands, not billions, of years old. I originally thought this was kookie, but as I hear and read what they have to say, I find it fascinating. Not sure, but I believe Fr Chad Ripperger may be one of these

If you had one of these on your show, you could ask him/her all kinds of very difficult questions, and see what they come up with, how they react

If you have already done such an interview, please let me know, I will definitely watch it

Killian Miller

Jimmy Akin did a Young Earth debate with Gideon Lazar a while back, it’s even in this channel

Hans Georg Lundahl

"serious Catholics who believe the universe is thousands, not billions, of years old. I originally thought this was kookie, but as I hear and read what they have to say, I find it fascinating."

Perhaps Bergsma, certainly myself, Hugh Owen, Kennedy Hall, Robert Sungenis, one Dominic Tassot in France, one French scientist last heard of in Russian occupied Crimea, forget if he's named Guy Bertaud or Berthaud, or sth else, specialises in rapid apparent stratification.

[Actually, it's Guy Berthault]

Sebastian of Milan

Fr. Chad Ripperger has videos on evolution and YEC.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Can you link to some, @sebastianofmilan ?

VI

Samwich816

Hmm, I guess I always subscribed to the local flood theory. God could have easily added on a deluge on top of something like the Black Sea flood which would have required the ark for Noah's survival. For the global flood theory, I guess my question would be if Noah and his family were the only humans in the whole world to survive, how did they repopulate the earth? Didn't he have 3 sons and no daughters?

Hans Georg Lundahl

8 people are Noah, his wife, their three sons, their three daughters in law.

I hope this answers the question.

Scrap Dog

The local theory seems to be the most correct. And the issue is that, even though Noah’s sons brought their wives, the amount of inbreeding that would’ve taken place in later generations would’ve caused the human race to die out VERY quickly.

I would be very careful about believing in a global flood considering there is no evidence to support it. What this Doctor of theology said regarding sedimentary rock is very inaccurate; sedimentary rock takes a VERRYYY long time to form. But even then, if the whole world flooded AND it (some how) left behind an impossibly large amount of sediment, we would expect to see a MASSIVE amount of fossils of both marine and land creatures all on the same geological layer on the earth. But we don’t

CaptainKrajick

@scrapdog2113 that's why their lifespans dropped off dramatically in the Bible no? Even Shem outlived his grandchildren

Hans Georg Lundahl

@scrapdog2113 "the amount of inbreeding"

Which is only a problem in our times since the genome already deteriorated.

"sedimentary rock takes a VERRYYY long time to form."

So long it actually cannot be checked, right?

In other words, an empty hypothesis.

"we would expect to see a MASSIVE amount of fossils of both marine and land creatures all on the same geological layer on the earth. But we don’t"

We do, except insofar that the layer is classified differently according to fauna. In this part of Karoo they find Cistecephalus and Aloposaurus gracilis, and it's classified as Upper Permian. In that part of Karoo, they find Tapinocephalus and Moschops capensis, and it's classifed as Middle Permian.

Yet another part of Karoo we find Lystrosaurus and Procolophon trigoniceps, and it's classified as Lower Triassic.

But every single one of these has been found near the surface. None of these has been found above or below another one of them.

For marine biota, the case is different, when the pre-Flood seas were filled with mud, more than one level was caught into sediment.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Captain Krajick, I'd favour the idea that higher radioactivity speeded up mutation rates in the post-Flood world.

Also explains the Ice age, and also explains a carbon 14 production up to 10 times as swift as now.

VII

Virginia 'Rican

the great sphynx in Egypt has possible flood evidence as well. It's a pre-flood object. Also, didn't say that two of every KIND boarded the arc? Isn't Kind a denomination of animal that's a level higher than species?

Hans Georg Lundahl

Young Earth Creationists tend to think so.

I think hedgehog is one kind, not 17 kinds. BUT it's 17 species in 5 genera, and hedgehogs overall are one subfamily.

So all five hedgehog genera, all 17 hedgehog species descend from one hedgehog couple on the ark.

Virginia 'Rican

@hglundahl right, how many species of fox are there? Fox is a kind.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@VirginiaRican Some Creationists have actually even said it's part of the canine kind, but could be a kind of its own.

VIII

Ladiesman1447

This is sad. It's a kid who still looking for a way Santa could be real.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Go to Bari in Italy. Saint Nicholas' relics used to be there (I think they may have recently been handed to the Greek Orthodox).

A2Z

Outstanding comment. Wise, insightful and very funny.

TheWalruswasJason

He was tho. Santa is based on a real person in history. Mic drop

Ladiesman1447

@thewalruswasjason101 yeah, mythology layered over a real person, like Jesus.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Are we detecting a Sceptic, @Ladiesman-js3kt ?

Santa isn't mythology, as in stories added to a real person. It's play act rather than stories.

Ladiesman1447

@hglundahl What do you mean? Santa is mythology. It's the definition of mythology. Only difference between mythology and religion is whether people believe it's real or not.

That's how religions become mythology.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@Ladiesman-js3kt If you want a definition of mythology, it's more like a collection of Greek:

a) myths and
b) hero legends

The latter involve real people overlaid partly with misunderstandings, partly with made up stories. Either is often believed.

In relation to St. Nicholas, Santa Claus is mostly playacting.

Ladiesman1447

@hglundahl Mythology: a collection of myths, especially one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition.

Christmas is a cultural tradition. It's all myth and folklore. The truth is it's suppose to be a pagan celebration of the winter solstice, Santa, flying Reindeer etc is all myth ontop of it which becomes part of culture.

And now it's weirdly mixed in with Jesus' birthday, so it's like three different things in one; Jesus, Santa, Paganism, though the original pagan root is least known.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@Ladiesman-js3kt - I take the last first:

"though the original pagan root is least known."

To the point of being mythological, or rather a product of mythomania.

"especially one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition."

"Cultural tradition" here meaning things like "Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic traditions"

"Christmas is a cultural tradition."

"Cultural tradition" here meaning like "celebrating Christmas, wearing ties in fancy restaurants, playing Classical Music" ...

Let's take the last one. The idea that composing is done by genius and therefore not by music theory is part of the last of these three, and it's not a myth in any sensible sense of the word, it's simply a makebelieve. Especially by musicians who want to train their future competition.

Myths are things like the Twelve Works of Hercules.

Rudolf the Rednosed Reindeer is the one example of a story about Santa Claus, something resembling an actual myth.

IX

Alana Didonato

How are you catholic but you don’t know how big the ark is??? The dimensions are in the Bible. I understand one can’t know everything but there are actually some great answers to some of these questions I wish were presented since you brought this up. But good questions and convo to start having I guess.

Hans Georg Lundahl

The Biblical dimensions give a palette of sizes, since we don't have an exact and know as such length for the cubit.

According to the calculations I made, even if it was just 18 inches long, the Ark would have been sufficiently big for all kinds of mammal, reptile, bird and possibly also amphibian, not forgetting pelyko-, dino- and pterosaur.

Night Yew

The dimensions are in the Bible, but what's a cubit? If it's an American Catholic, we're still confused by the metric system. ;)

Alana Didonato

Actually they do know how big a cubit is. 😁

Hans Georg Lundahl

@alanadidonato147 There is at least an educated guess, that one being 17.5 inches.

My shortest version was 18 inches, when I calculated before learning this.

A2Z

@hglundahl And mammoths weighing up to 14 tonnes.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@AallthewaytoZ2 When they are full grown adults, right?

A2Z

@hglundahl Noah might have had them at only one tonne each. But they would still need their mothers milk.

CaptainKrajick

@hglundahl considering Moses was Egyptian in culture, we would have to assume he used the Royal Egyptian Cubit (which we have record of) because the Hebrew cubit had yet to be standard yet.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I don't think Noah took animals small enough to need their mother's milk, @AallthewaytoZ2 .

The least weight for passengers, food, water and tools I can calculate with an 18 inch cubit is 13,257 metric tons.

I think two two ton mammoths could have made it. 13,257 - 4 = 13,253.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@captainkrajick God didn't give the order to Moses, but to Noah.

We can assume the pre-Flood world had a standard cubit, and we cannot be sure it is identic to that of Royal Egypt.

CaptainKrajick

@hglundahl Moses wrote the book, just like how Jesus spoke Aramaic but the gospels are written in Greek. If it was from Noah's point of view the books wouldn't be written in Hebrew either.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Wrong, @captainkrajick .

1) Noah spoke some form of Hebrew. His story was transmitted orally up to Abraham, and from Abraham's promise to Moses' Exodus event there are only 430 years.
2) Moses was not able to measure the Ark himself, so he couldn't have cared less if it was the Egyptian Royal cubit he knew or a slightly different one.

CaptainKrajick

@hglundahl Hebrew comes from the line of Eber, and Noah was alive at that time, so perhaps he spoke Hebrew after the Tower of Babel, but both things happened simultaneously so I think we could both be right on what language he spoke.
God told Moses what to write too, and considering the amount of Egyptian metaphors in the first 5 books of the Bible, it's very clearly Egyptian influenced.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@captainkrajick "God told Moses what to write too"

When it comes to Exodus 20 we deal with something like the Apocalypse.

When it comes to Genesis, most generally with something like the Gospel of St. Luke (except centuries passed).

"Noah was alive at that time, so perhaps he spoke Hebrew after the Tower of Babel"

Hebrew was the pre-Babelic language, and as Babel was some time between 350 and 401 after the Flood (40 out of 51 years) with the breakup in the last year, Noah was not alive then.

Hebrews were spared having to change language due to not participating in the Tower project.

CaptainKrajick

@hglundahl Well from my timeline Noah dies about 10 years after Peleg's death, which was the marker for when the dispersion for the Tower of Babel happened, (also the marker for when Noah blessed his 3 sons[after Disowning Ham]). But your Hebrew as the pre-Babelic language does make sense regardless. It seems that Peleg was killed because he didn't participate in the false god worship of the Tower of Babel

Hans Georg Lundahl

@captainkrajick I think you have a Masoretic timeline (like the Vulgate).

I use that of the Roman Martyrology, which for Genesis 11 has a LXX without the second Cainan, identic to Samaritan.

"because he didn't participate in the false god worship of the Tower of Babel"

I think killings certainly occurred, but for refusing the work. Not sure any false gods except such worshipped by Commies were involved - or rather fairly confident they weren't.

X

Andrew An

I agree local flood version invalidates the entire premise of the ark. However, a global flood poses serious problems as well.

It's almost unanimously agreed that the flood, if it did happen, took place around 4,300 years ago. There are trees that are older than that. If the earth was covered in water for 40days consecutively, there is no way those trees survived.

We would also have to explain where the excess water came from and where it went. More troubling is, why don't we have grand canyons all around the world? When water moves, it leaves a very distinct trail of sediments, minerals, and geological shapes, but we don't see this trend uniformly around earth's geoloical history.

Also the impact of sea water contaminating freshwater aquifers and fertile land would make it impossible for humans to thrive in a post-global flood earth.

The mention of kangaroos might've been a silly take but it's really not in the context of the flood. How did isolated marsupials get to modern day turkey and back? there is no migration evidence for these animals

If you are serious about the ark's and the global flood's historicity, you can spend a lifetime trying to figure out answers to these impossible questions. The most likely explanation is the flood was a local event that's been exaggerated, probably myths passed down from mesopotamian times when the euphrates and tigris would flood catastrophically

Taylor McAnerney

Our ways of dating are not as accurate as we think. Hugh Owens has information on the different types of dating like Carbon dating and why they are not accurate. He could also answer your other questions.

Andrew An

@taylormcanerney8635 dating trees doesn't require cabon dating though. It's a very straightfoward method of counting the tree rings. I haven't heard of owens before but I'll check him out, thank you.

Taylor McAnerney

@andrewofaiur that is true, I do believe that Hugh would say closer to 6,000 years not 4,300 since the flood but I'll let him explain. I'm not sure what the oldest trees are considered to be.

Hans Georg Lundahl

"It's almost unanimously agreed that the flood, if it did happen, took place around 4,300 years ago."

2958 + 2023 years equal 4300 years?

The Roman Martyrology says Christ was born 2957 after the Flood, and as Christ was born in 1 BC, add one to it, to get the BC date for the Flood, which is 2958.

I get the addition to closer to 5000 years.

And that would match the oldest trees measured by tree rings.

Hans Georg Lundahl

I forgot a few:

"We would also have to explain where the excess water came from and where it went."

From:
1) subterranean cavities now collapsed
2) oxygen and hydrogen high up combining to Brown's gas and then igniting
To:
mainly deeper Oceans.

"More troubling is, why don't we have grand canyons all around the world?"

We do have canyons, and this happens to be the one with the largest pile up of sediment before it was cut out.

"When water moves, it leaves a very distinct trail of sediments, minerals, and geological shapes, but we don't see this trend uniformly around earth's geoloical history."

The canyons are from post-Flood drainages of water through still wet sediment. Not all sediment was piled equally high and not all piles of sediment had this much water trapped on top to drain.

"Also the impact of sea water contaminating freshwater aquifers and fertile land would make it impossible for humans to thrive in a post-global flood earth."

Sea water as in salt is an anachronism, the seas have been receiving salt from inland sources since the Flood.

"The mention of kangaroos might've been a silly take but it's really not in the context of the flood. How did isolated marsupials get to modern day turkey and back? there is no migration evidence for these animals"

Thanks for putting the Ark in Turkey, at least!

If one couple of each main marsupial kind went wandering to what's now Oz, over Sahel Sunda either land bridge or crossing a narrow strait by flotsam or human boats, and didn't die before arriving, why would their migration leave traces?

"If you are serious about the ark's and the global flood's historicity, you can spend a lifetime trying to figure out answers to these impossible questions."

Or you can go to sources that have already dealt with these impossible questions and found them not so impossible.

Andrew An

@hglundahl Can you help me look for the source where roman martyrology states that information? I looked for it myself but no luck. I would like to know how your source arrived at that conclusion.

@hglundahl Thanks for going over every single points, you did a fantastic job. I would like to go over your rebuttals one by one though. 'Where the water came from and where they went' - you said subterranean cavities and upper atmospheric chemical reaction. Is your belief that those two sources are sufficient to generate enough water that can cover the entire planet? are these subterranean chambers still available for research even though they may have collapsed? We would need to know the scale of the water that could have possibly been stored underground and how they were exposed, condensed, and turned into rain overnight. I don't know much about browns gas but it seems like its a chemical reaction done through electrolysis of water, so isn't this kind of circular reasoning because we are trying to answer where excess water came from by using a method that requires excess water?

Hans Georg Lundahl

@andrewofaiur "the source where roman martyrology states that information?"

The Roman Martyrology for Dec. 25 starting with Usuardus took it over from Historia Scholastica, as I know from my friend Stephan Borgehammar, a Church Historian.

Historia Scholastica has this particular item from St. Jerome, who for the spans Adam-Flood-Abraham relied on Julius Africanus.

"Is your belief that those two sources are sufficient to generate enough water that can cover the entire planet?"

Were, not are. And to a moderate height, i e Himalayas, Alps, Pyrenees and some more rose to present height after the Flood. Perhaps 1 - 2 km up and pre-Flood seas not very deep, nowhere like Marianas Basin.

"are these subterranean chambers still available for research even though they may have collapsed?"

I said cavities, not chambers. No, I think tectonic movements did a very thorough job of collapsing them.

"We would need to know the scale of the water that could have possibly been stored underground and how they were exposed, condensed, and turned into rain overnight."

The Bible does NOT say all of the water came as rain. "Fountains of the deep" is what I am talking about, and it suggests waters rising from below rather than falling down as rain.

"I don't know much about browns gas but it seems like its a chemical reaction done through electrolysis of water,"

That electrolysis was done on day two, when God created an atmosphere, with oxygen, between waters below (H2O) and waters above (H2 as well as H2O).

"by using a method that requires excess water?"

When God created Earth, there was enough excess water for electrolysis to furnish material to make Sun and Fix stars (even though I think these are very much smaller than usually thought).

Jacob Jaramillo

If you read Genesis 7 it talks about the firmament in the sky broke open and the fountains that originally watered the earth were opened from the ground. Reference that with Genesis 1 and this is where we get excess water. It wasn’t just a bunch of rain as we know rain today.

XI

Ermine Starfish (ferreus)

Young Earth creationism brings ridicule on the faith.

ndirish (VACatholic)

>But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness

Bringing ridicule on the faith is not a problem in a time when the people ridiculing the faith don't believe in 2 genders. We care about truth here, not the opinion of the world.

Ermine Starfish (ferreus)

@VACatholic sure, but it's ridicule in the sense that flat earthism or transgenderism brings ridicule.

Matt McK

True faith will generally bring ridicule.

Taylor McAnerney

How could it bring ridicule when they are the ones who actually believe that what the Bible says is fact and not just a made up story?

Phil

Why are the virgin birth, the resurrection , and other miracles ok but young earth creationism not?

Hans Georg Lundahl

@ferreus "it's ridicule in the sense that flat earthism"

Flat Earthism seems to contradict what we know simply from travel routes.

We have no time machines to match that for millions and billions of years.

They are an ideology, not an observation.

ndirish

@ferreus It really doesn't though. Even the scientists admit that the reason they believe in an old earth is purely due to philosophical principles, and we know their philosophy is terrible. So it's really hard for me to take you seriously when you offer nothing to substantiate your claim other than ridiculing people who are bringing evidence to the conversation.

Zé Nuno

Faith > scientific consensus which are fleeting.
I think we'll be the most ridiculed age in the day of judgement. Believing stuff like, humans coming from monkeys.... No other age dropped this low.

XII

AslanRising 1776

How old is the earth? How do you know its the age you say? How long ago did dinosaurs live? What is the lifespan of Carbon 14?

Hans Georg Lundahl

The halflife (no such thing as lifespan) of carbon 14 is 5730 years.

When dating old things with carbon 14, the content in relation to carbon 12 was originally lower and therefore the ages calculated are too high.

AslanRising 1776

@hglundahl half life refers to the time it takes for it to reduce by half. Carbon 14 has about 100k lifespan...thus anything in which Carbon 14 is found, could not be older than 100k. Do they find Carbon 14 in dinosaurs is the next question.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Yes, @AslanRising - I have heard of both Mark Armitage and others.

And in coal, and in dimonds and in petrol.