Art Dorety refused to debate a Creationist linking to his own material, because he was linking to a Creationist's material ... a Creationist who had presumably duped him ... self ... (I know, bc the Creationist is Myself)

Q

Creationists have a solid image of the Flood. It is known that bodies of water can affect radiocarbon dating. Why has there been no attempt to replicate the Flood in a laboratory setting?
https://www.quora.com/Creationists-have-a-solid-image-of-the-Flood-It-is-known-that-bodies-of-water-can-affect-radiocarbon-dating-Why-has-there-been-no-attempt-to-replicate-the-Flood-in-a-laboratory-setting/answer/Art-Dorety

Art Dorety

Free Lance Paleoartist and digital artist (2005–present)

3 years ago

Regardless of what creationists believe, never in the last 300 million years was the entire Earth covered with water with no land mass, let alone in the last 15,000 years.

This article does the job to explain what we know today about the glacial retreat from the last ice age glacial maximum. Sea Level Rise, After the Ice Melted and Today

In a brief summation at one point between 11,500 years ago and 11,000 years ago there was a rapid “pulse” of melting that over the course of 500 years the ocean level rose by 28 meters, that’s almost 100 feet in a geological short time. This pulse is likely the cause for “flood stories”. While 100 feet over 500 years does not sound like much that kind of sea level rise would drastically affect coasts, bays, rivers near the sea and so on. You would even likely have back flooding up riverways as the sea rose. Bad and extreme weather affected by rising climate temperatures would enhance this period as well.

Despite what early 20th century archaeologist declared, modern discoveries have been consistently pushing a civilized, building and settling human race back further in time.

During the last glaciation it appears many small tribes or early small civilizations settled along coasts from Mesopotamia to eastern Asia and along what would become the Mediterranean as well. These people appear to have settled enough to build temple like structures and possibly other types of buildings. Coastal people are obviously going to be the first to be affected by sea level rise. Even some north and south American tribes have flood stories too. The North American ice sheets seem to be the prime culprit in the sea level rise pulses.

Research ships formerly using sonar and now lidar are finding temple like and stone structures off coasts and underwater. These were likely built when the sea was lower at the end of the last glacial maximum. The sudden sea rise and climate change led to flooding. Probably catastrophic in some years and gradual in others. One can speculate that during this time, some 11,000 + years ago, there may have been a year or two of excessive sea rise causing notable catastrophic flooding that locals would remember in oral tales handed down until written in clay by the Sumerians. By then after 3000 to 5000 years of oral tradition the stories became exaggerated and molded to fit the culture who is telling the story. Thus you have the flood in the tale of Gilgamesh becoming Noah’s flood (e.g.) and so on.

As far as radiocarbon dating goes, that has nothing to do with any of this, especially dating fossils. Radio carbon dating dates organic matter and is accurate, at best, up to 50,000 years. Fossils are rock essentially. They are made from minerals and sediments that saturate flesh (if lucky) and bone, replacing the cells and bone structure with minerals and sediment. A fossil is a rock replication of what used to be bone and flesh if it fossilized before decaying. Radiometric dating is used to measure the age of rock. There are various methods, but basically, known radiation decay of particular rocks is used to get a close estimate for the age of a rock bed or line of strata.

I also just wanted to add, that any recreation of a flood or flooding by glacial melt would be done using computer modeling these days. That would take data of climate at that time and of course accurate sea level measurements per year (something very difficult to obtain) to get an accurate model. An approximate measure and model could probably be made and hypothetical models of flooding due to sudden sea rise could be made also. That would at least offer some picture of a possible scenario.

A scenario might be that during that 500 year period, maybe a large chunk of glacier broke off and into the sea causing massive tsunamis as well as an increase in sea level. That would be quite a catastrophe for anyone along the coast almost anywhere in the world.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3 years ago

“never in the last 300 million years was the entire Earth covered with water with no land mass,”

Because the water covered periods one can trace are assignated to different parts of these.

“let alone in the last 15,000 years.”

Meaning carbon dated time and for carbon date 15 000 BP or 13 000 BC I’d set a post-Flood date close to Noah’s death 350 years after the Flood.

Very correct, since Noah died there has never been a Flood again, like God had promised Noah around 350 years before that, close after the Flood.

Here is a table of mine putting real (Biblical) post-Flood dates against carbon dates in the area you mentioned:

2780 BC / 22.169 pmc, 15 230 BC
Eber * 2690 BC / 2691 BC / 32.584 pmc 11 941 BC
Noah + 2607 BC
Babel begins 2602 BC / 42.89 pmc, 9600 BC

Table for St Jerome as per Preliminary Conclusion

Art Dorety

3 years ago

Interesting. Would make an interesting background for a fantasy novel involving a parallel or alternate Earth.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3 years ago

Do one.

Then check out how you know that that is not where we are living.

Art Dorety

3 years ago

I know because I trust facts time tested and vetted by hundreds, if not thousands of scientists and copious amounts of real data that can be tested by anyone who wants to know the truth.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

3 years ago

“hundreds of” or “copious amounts of” is not mentioning one.

Can you test that my views on geological layers used to back “300 million years” are wrong?

Can you test that my view on carbon dating of last carbon dated “15 000 years” are wrong?

If so, what is the actual test criterium you use?

Art Dorety

3 years ago

Here’s a link to wikipedia. Radiometric dating - Wikipedia

That is not the usual route preferred here, but this link gives the basic on how rock and the planet is age dated. There’s no secrets, deflections or mystery about this. You will see that as far back as 1907 scientists have been using these methods and they have only gotten better and more accurate with current technology.

Frankly your info makes no sense as I only see citation from people that speculate from writings that are also speculation or derived very old and misguided knowledge based on guesses rather than actual physical testing. If you don’t want to believe science and tried and true time tested measures, I just think that’s a shame and I’m saddened when this ignorance is passed on to others, especially children.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Fri 22.IX.2023

Take a look at my discussion with an actual carbon dater:

Radiocarbon and Tree Rings with Ken Wolgemuth

“and I’m saddened when this ignorance is passed on to others, especially children.”

So, ignorance about carbon dating is terribly saddening … what about some really important knowledge, like the Catholic faith?

No, frankly, I am not “ignorant” I am giving an alternative reading of the data provided by scientists, I am not ignoring them.

New Tables
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

For testing the applicability to archaeology, see:

What Project?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2023/04/what-project.html

Art Dorety

Fri 22.IX.2023

You continually use citations from creationist pushers who have a certain agenda. Here I offer some citation found on reputable sites on the internet. A library is also valuable.

How the Earth was made:

[six links, leaving them out]

Flood Information

[four links, leaving them out]

This last link below is probably the most important to read for you.

How Should we Interpret the Genesis Flood Account? - Common Question - BioLogos
https://biologos.org/common-questions/how-should-we-interpret-the-genesis-flood-account

Happy reading.

which I answered

twice, I and II

I

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sat 23.IX.2023

“You continually use citations from creationist pushers who have a certain agenda.”

You didn’t bother to look at the names, did you?

The creationist pusher with a certain agenda is named Hans Georg Lundahl. Now take a look at my own name here.

It’s SO very kind of you to warn myself against my own work, isn’t it?

“Here I offer some citation found on reputable sites on the internet.”

I am interested in argument, not in a bibliography to people with a certain OTHER agenda, adversarial to my own - is that remotely understood, even by yourself?

Art Dorety

Sun 24.IX.2023

It seems we’ve reached in impasse. I love the irony of using you against you. I know you will never change your mind nor will I, so have a nice life.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sun 24.IX.2023

Thank you, I think showing this to some readers may be one way of having it …

[Link] Art Dorety refused to debate a Creationist linking to his own material, because he was linking to a Creationist's material ... a Creationist who had presumably duped him ... self ... (I know, bc the Creationist is Myself)

II

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sun 24.IX.2023

As you recommended one of above more, I can tell I have already made a thorough debunking of one BioLogos material:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Ussher III · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Numeric Symbolism in Genesis 5 Patriarchs? · HGL'S F.B. WRITINGS: Number Symbolism in Genesis 5? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Ages or Names Symbolic?