Tuesday, December 28, 2021

Debating Place or No-Place of Heaven with John Becknell

Christian Bible Studies: How can we know where heaven is located?

Submission accepted by
Marsha Meeks

John Becknell
Faithful to the Magisterium, striving to win the race.
Aug 21
How can we know where heaven is located?
Heaven according to theologians is not a place so to speak, but rather a state of being. Therefore one couldn't “walk” out of heaven and not be there. When one possesses the beatific vision, one is eternally in a state of bliss which can never be lost or located away from the person who is saved.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
December 21
“not a place”

That category of theologians does neither comprehend St. Thomas, nor Bishop Tempier.

John Becknell
December 21
Not sure of your point. Are you saying that heaven is rather a specific place that one can exit, that Heaven is merely a location?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
December 22
It is a specific place, above the fix stars. Other bonus with geocentrism is, I can place this not much further than one light day away.

One can exit heaven locally, as Christ will do when arriving at Armageddon and one can even exit heaven as to one’s state. You know, angels were created there and one third of them took a very final exit from heaven.

I agree with CSL (Anglican, nearly Protestant, though he was) that “merely” is a dangerous word. I don’t do “merely” this or if not “merely” the other, I often do both, unless there is a specific reason against one of the two.

John Becknell
December 22
Do you disagree with the Baltimore Catechism, which calls it a state of being? You are equivocating between calling heaven a state or a location with reference to the fallen angels in your reply. Note in the catechism, the question is, “what is heaven”, not where.

Geocentrism is junk science, and when you appeal to it, your particular eisegesis of Scripture is, like it or not, effectively discounted also. It's like I'm a rocket scientist who has calculated your path to Mars as I explain to you that this is the same path the elves took when they assisted Santa to the North Pole. I might be the best scientist in the world, but you're still not taking that trip.


I answered
twice, hence two answers noted:

Hans Georg Lundahl
Christmas Eve
I would say the Baltimore catechism was sloppy on this point.

It was also influenced by a diffidence about the Galileo case.

Both St. Thomas and Bishop Tempier would have disagreed.

And I bet you can find elsewhere that the Baltimore catechism states that Satan was thrown down from Heaven, which proves my point.

You call geocentrism “junk science” when it is in fact primary observation. It is heliocentric arguments that are junk science as far as the implications are concerned.

And I didn’t quite get the implication of your comparison. Supposing Father Christmas exists (debatable but not out of the question) what would have stopped him from taking that path (if he was for instance an angelic immortal rather than a man)?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Christmas Eve
While it would have been more correct to say “what is beatitude” for Q 1395 with same definition, Baltimore catechism number 3 still has a corrective to your position, here:

Q. 1390. Will our bodies share in the reward or punishment of our souls?

A. Our bodies will share in the reward or punishment of our souls, because through the resurrection they will again be united to them.

~Baltimore Catechism #3 : Lesson 37~

Now a body needs a place, therefore Heaven is a place for beatitude, not just a state of it.

See also a couple of QQ which imply spatiality of Heaven:

Q. 418. Where is Christ in heaven?

A. In heaven Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

Q. 419. What do you mean by saying that Christ sits at the right hand of God?

A. When I say that Christ sits at the right hand of God I mean that Christ as God is equal to His Father in all things, and that as man He is in the highest place in heaven next to God.

~Baltimore Catechism #3 : Lesson 8~

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