Showing posts with label NativLang. Show all posts
Showing posts with label NativLang. Show all posts

Tuesday, July 27, 2021

Latin to French, on the Spoken Side of the Issue


NativLang has a very good video on the theme:

Why French sounds so unlike other Romance languages
23rd of July 2021 | NativLang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2TWBBxwhbU


I
6:22 "instead, observe as it arises from social ..."

A bit like Australian English reflects more than one dialect of England? Kind of a wiki with different dialects as contributors?

II
9:33 I thought the non-trilled uvular R was attributed to a speech fault of Louis XIV?

Because, it seems to have spread past the Rhine into German, Dutch, Danish (except Bornholm?), Scanian in Sweden even.

III
10:54 We do agree that this French rhythm, final syllable of each phrase, is posterior to how French was pronounced in the days of Corneille, Racine and Molière, right?

Because we do find Alexandrines in pairs of two anapaests, caesura, two anapaests, rhyme, two anapaests, caesura, two anapaests and rhyme with first rhyme, and also in pairs of three iambics, caesura, three iambics, rhyme, three iambics, caesura, three iambics and rhyme with first rhyme. Which would not be the case if each half Alexandrine was a phrase of six syllables with one accent on the final one.

IV
After the video, how about this : you have explained (as the title precisely purports to) how Latin phonetics transitioned to French phonetics in the spoken language.

That said, there was a definite time when one ceased to spell langue d'oïl as Latin and began to spell it as ... newly invented spelling for langue d'oïl.

My take on the process is this:

  • up to and including Gregory of Tours, "good" written Latin didn't reflect and "mediocre" written Latin partly reflected changes in sound as well as morphosyntax ("good" as in "katharevousa is good Greek" and "mediocre" as in "dhimotiki is mediocre Greek");
  • in the 8th C. one became aware that pronouncing Latin the French way made for some misunderstandings (a priest, in visit from Italy, was wondering whether the priest had baptised in the name of the Father, the Daughter ... and therefore invalidly, the French priest arguably pronouncing "filii" as "filie" and "filiae" also as "filie");
  • Alcuin came to the rescue, since in England, Latin had been on the freeze (since spoken only as second language, and with very intermittent contact with Latin first language speakers) since the times of St. Augustine and St. Pauline, these arriving from Italy, where Rome preserved a rather correct Latin in 600, and the pronunciation became even more close to Classical through use by barbarians who pronounced each letter, since it was easier;
  • he arrived in 800 AD to Tours, and taught the clergy of Tours to pronounce Latin, as a complete non-vernacular;
  • result, by 813, the clergy of Tours, sticking to his reform of the pronunciation, decided to add, after Gospel, on Sundays and public Feast days, a sermon explaining the Gospel "in lingua romana rustica, vel theudisca" - in langue d'oïl or in Frankish
  • clergy preparing sermons began giving their old pronunciation a new spelling (with rules of correspondence grapheme to phoneme, similar to the new ones for new Latin pronunciation)
  • which new spelling surfaces in the Strassburg oaths
  • and is modified quicker, since now the local language was no longer seen as part of the spectrum of Latin stylistics, so that we have soon enough have an even less Latin sounding Sequence of Saint Eulalia by 880.


I am being somewhat (and with underhand tactics) harrassed by Protestants who would love me to admit this video of yours as disproving above, since they prefer imagining that pronunciation of correct Latin and pronunciation of very early langue d'oïl diverged so gradually, that the people could not have understood St. Gregory of Tours pronouncing his own text in a vernacular pronunciation, or a semi-vernacular one. You know, the theme of "Apostate Roman Church imposing Latin to lock the Bible into an unintelligible language" and all that ....

Some support would be fairly welcome ...


If he does, I'll make "on the written side of the issue" part of the header when sharing, perhaps with comments ...

Saturday, November 9, 2019

Some Non-English Perks of Latin


Features English is missing - but most other languages have
NativLang | 8.XI.2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iLpKFA1ADQ


I
2:22 "legimus tres libros" vs "legimus trinos libros".

II
3:50 -ne after first word (or after preposition and first full word) = open yes and no
num before first word = expecting negative answer
nonne before first word = expecting affirmative answer

Trinosne libros legerunt? (Did they read three books each?)
Num trinos libros legerunt? (They didn't read three books each, did they?)
Nonne trinos libros legerunt? (They read three books each, didn't they?)

And double questions:

Utrum trinos legerunt libros an tres in toto? = Trinosne legerunt libros an tres in toto? (Did they read three books each or three in total?)

Latin starts the sentence with question words, which is a beautiful parallel to the question particles of yes and no questions.

Between S, P and Complement there is no fixed word order anyway, so you can parallel Q and A word order even with accusative question pronouns.

Quem necasti?
Neminem necavi.

Whom did you kill? No one I killed. (Tolkien would have liked that sentence in English, see "Helms too they chose.")

III
5:36 pluit, serenum est, ninguit, vesperascit
(it rains, it is fair weather, it snows, it's getting late)

IV
5:58 Ibimus carris cum mercatoribus
We went with chariots with merchants

Instrumental = Ablative only
Comitative = Cum + Ablative

V
Features lacked in both English and Latin:
  • evidentials except for separate verbs (sometimes adverbs)
  • politeness (tu = any sing thou, vos = any several you), Erasmus of Rotterdam called it a barbarism to call one person "vos" and said grammar distinguishes singular from plural according to whether the person or persons are in fact singular or plural, one or more of them (see De Conscribendis Epistulis)
  • ser / estar distinction


Features rare but in English : having both w and th (also there in Welsh).

Feature perhaps unique to English : sixteen tenses (Germanic languages usually have 8, English added a continuous vs simple distinction, which by the way is also kind of found in Welsh ... except Present tense is always continuous : Yr yddwyf fi'n hoffi coffi = I like / love dark matter, literally "I am loving coffee")

Wait, be in a place, adesse with dative is possible.

Sum mercator, assum foro.
I am a merchant, I am at the market place.

Also reverse, abesse.

Sum miles, absum a foro.
I am a knight, I am away from the market place.

Wednesday, September 20, 2017

Or, as here, rather supplementary queries, to NativLang on Rhymes


What's the reason and rhyme for rhymes?
NativLang | Ajoutée le 18 juil. 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LoMp0TXiI


I on Mnemotechnics:

Speaking of memory : how well do the chapters 2 to 6 in Genesis rhyme or how mnemotechnic are they, in Hebrew?

I mean, chapter 1 is from Moses getting a revelation on Sinai (unless chapter 1 was given to Adam and Jubilees to Moses, as some claim), but 2 - 6 would have been preserved by pre-Flood patriarchs, 7 - 11 by patriarchs living post-Flood, before Abraham had a whole caravan of servants who might preserve some papyrus (he could have got the first of that in Egypt) or similar.

I reckoned, learning them by heart is at least not impossible (if you think it is, tell that to Milman Perry or to both, he / they might need a laugh).

But are they very mnemotechnic or just short and syntactically simple enough?

II on Rhyme Schemes:

2:15 "within 3 seconds"?

Hmmm ... is this expectation fulfilled when hearing poems with rhyme schemes involving patterns like ABBA?

Wednesday, May 3, 2017

... on Latin / Romance revisited


What Latin Sounded Like - and how we know
NativLang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_enn7NIo-S0


I

Before actually watching video, I suppose you mean the pronunciation around the times of Cicero and Livy?

Because the Gaulish pronunciation in the time of Gregory and Fredegar of Tours might have been more like < fidem > [feith], < seruum > [serf] and both nominative and plural < seruus / seruos > [sers] ... since that is close to how things were spelled once the pronunciation changed under Alcuin and the old one became the basis for new languages like French and Provençal.

After watching the video : especially as both English and French and Spanish tend to confirm there was a stage at which Fidem had become Feith.

II

Felis Hypogei est paratus ad insiliendum in animaM immortalEM tuaM, I suppose?

Second word means what?

Doormat? (Wild guess)

How Did Latin Become A Dead Language?
NowThis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZJ0fzr1ajg


0:11 I was just going to say it, but "Cromm Cruach" came before me:

Cromm Cruach

The Church used Latin as it was the language of the Empire NOT the other way around

[back to me]

1:12 "it was only around the fall of the Empire that Latin died and these new languages were born"

No, they were born before the fall of West and East Rome last avatars in 1917-18 ...

Wait, you meant like fall of Constantinople .... no, they were around before 1453 too.

Or you meant around the fall of Ancient Rome with last Emperor before Charlemagne?

No, Latin rather than this lived on a bit past Charlemagne.

What you may mean is that the regional pronunciations (you know, English doesn't sound the same in California and in Oxford) started the road of phonetic changes leading up to Romance languages.

Church Slavonic is more diversified than English et pour cause : when a Serbian and an Ukrainean celebrate liturgy, the Serb pronounces the words and consequently letters basically as in Serbian, and the Ukrainean basically as in Ukrainean - with those added words, endings, letters, syllables, which Slavonic has and they haven't.

And that was about how Latin functioned, both in Church and at Court and in Courts, with more and more diverging pronunciations, since unlike Slavic languages descended from same pronunciation, up to 800.

THEN Alcuin of York is asked to reform the ecclesial pronunciation in Gaul, and he does.

So, suddenly Latin has two pronunciations in each place in Gaul (France, Benelux, parts of Germany, Switzerland) : the common Alcuinian one which basically tries to restore old pronunciation by "time travel" (Alcuin got a pronunciation via English students who had learned it as foreign language since the day of Pope St Gregory and Augustine of Canterbury).

On one occasion the OTHER one has to be written down, it is a court version of the regional variety. In Strassburg a German speaker has to speak Latin so a Romance speaker - or a big number of them - can understand. From then on, you get the idea that the two pronunciations can be written most phonetically with two different spellings.

Then Latin SPLIT - old spelling + new-old (Alcuinian) pronunciation became Latin as separate from Romance languages, while old pronunciation (for last centuries up to then) with new spelling christallised in work after work and language after language.

1:20 Latin has a noun inflection, also known as declinsion, slightly less complex than that of Russian or Polish, since having one case less (6, not 7). Latin has a verb inflection, also known as conjugation, somewhat less complex than most Romance languages (where the new future and past future got two sister tenses or sister moods in conditional and past conditional).

So, sorry, that is not a very coherent explanation, it is simply ideology rather than history.

1:49 "of what was called Vulgar Latin"

No, Vulgar Latin is a modern term.

Sermo vulgaris meant faulty pronunciation, which were less and less noted. The language as such when written was termed Latin.

3:10 - 3:13 "The Church was a huge fan of Latin largely because that is what the common man spoke!"

Thank you, one who is at least getting THAT right!