Collected on March 24, 2022.
- Q I
- Where in the Bible does it talk about the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Where-in-the-Bible-does-it-talk-about-the-Tower-of-Babel/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Tania Klavdienko
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered just now
- It does so in Genesis, chapter elevent, first nine verses.
Some indications there give another coordinate adress than Classical Babylon, notably “and they removed from the east” (the correct translations have “from” here). Göbekli Tepe is West of Mountains of Armenia and Babylon is South, even some smallish bent Eastward, from most candidates for the landing place.
Nagorno Karabakh would be an exception.
- Q II
- Is it possible that the Tower of Babel could have existed in ancient Babylonian history but under a different name and history?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-Tower-of-Babel-could-have-existed-in-ancient-Babylonian-history-but-under-a-different-name-and-history/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Stef Lynn
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Mar 16
- It doesn’t as far as I know.
If you thought of “the Lord of Aratta” - it includes a complaint of lost linguistic or liturgic or both unity, but only to ask a healing thereof, not including any account of how the division came to be.
It would be very probable that the episode was painful to people who held Nimrod in higher regard, and that therefore they tried to actively forget it.
- Q III
- Did Noah possibly build the ark in the land which would eventually become Babylon post flood?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Noah-possibly-build-the-ark-in-the-land-which-would-eventually-become-Babylon-post-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Stef Lynn
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
- Answered Mar 16
- Let’s get two things straight:
- early post-Flood Babel is not Classic Babylon, though probably named in reference to it, the Babel of Genesis 11 first verses is arguably at Göbekli Tepe;
- both Göbekli Tepe and Classic Babylon are in the land between the two rivers (Euphrates and Tigris, riverbeds probably parts of pre-Flood riverbeds but other language Frat and Hiddekel) and so in a valley.
By contrast, Noah would have known what the waterline of the Ark was, namely 14 or 15 cubits high, of the 30 cubits, and would know the water was 15 cubits above the ground when the Ark started moving around in the water, which means that the Ark was arguably built on top of one of the pre-Flood highest mountains.
My favourite idea on which one that could be, for theological fitness, the one where in post-Flood times Golgotha and Mount of Olives is situated. In other words, pre-Flood mountains were very far from the Himalayas in height.
- Q IV
- How come Noah and his son lived longer than many of their descendants? Is it because they lived in the pre-flood world?
https://www.quora.com/How-come-Noah-and-his-son-lived-longer-than-many-of-their-descendants-Is-it-because-they-lived-in-the-pre-flood-world/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Stef Lynn
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Mar 15
- Noah lived to 950, Shem to 600. Not only did they live longer than their descendants, Noah lived longer than Shem, and of the descendants, Arphaxad, Sale, Heber live longer than Phalec, Reu and down on the line.
It is “because they lived in the pre-Flood world” (up to the Flood) but also because they were not born in the early post-Flood world, since at that time, the cosmic radiation would have been such as to produce carbon 14 ten times as quickly as now.
This incidentally led to a rise of C14 in the atmosphere, but was arguably done to get the lifespans get shorter, gradually, like God had said He would, looking at Raphael Blumberg’s answer, in Genesis 6 verses 3 to 5.
- Q V
- Were most of the Nephilim the first kings before the great flood of Noah covered the Earth?
https://www.quora.com/Were-most-of-the-Nephilim-the-first-kings-before-the-great-flood-of-Noah-covered-the-Earth/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Mar 6
- More like Cainites were the first kings before some became nephelim.
- Q VI
- Is it possible that the mountains didn’t exist before Noah’s flood?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-the-mountains-didn-t-exist-before-Noah-s-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Stef Lynn
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
- Answered Jan 19
- It is very possible and even very probable that mountains as high as we see them today didn’t exist before Noah’s Flood.
How did Noah know when the very high mountains (pre-Flood meaning of mountains!) were covered with 15 cubits of water? Probably bc 15 cubits high, or 14 or 14 and a half was the water line of the Ark, and when the Ark ceased to rest where it had been built and began floating in the water.
But this means it had been resting on and arguably had been built on one of the very high mountains, arguably the highest. And this means, the highest mountains in the pre-Flood world had tops more like Moriah than like Mount Everest.
- Q VII
- What was life like before Noah? Considering Canaan is histroically Noahs grandson
https://www.quora.com/What-was-life-like-before-Noah-Considering-Canaan-is-histroically-Noahs-grandson/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Answers201
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
- Answered 47m ago
- Your question has two parts.
"What was life like before Noah?"
I would especially like to stress “before”.
Noah was born Anno Mundi 1658. I don't know we have remains of human skeleta, teeth or settlements reaching that far back.
From the time of the Flood, we seem to lack city dwellers, but we have some Neanderthals and Denisovans who seem to have lived in that time about like Indians lived before the West was Conquered.
Probably these helped Noah's family (which had on the Ark some mixed race with these peoples) to go from metal to stone during Noah's remaining life after the Flood, which is the non-Neanderthal part of Upper Palaeolithic. When Noah dies, we find Babel starts getting built, and it is left unfinished in 401 after the Flood, if I am right, we have found it, and it's now named Göbekli Tepe.
"Considering Canaan is historically Noahs grandson"
Yes, but what is that relevant for? Canaan himself was not worshipping Dagon or Baal, as his descendants were going to do a bit after the time of Abraham, when Canaan was already dead. Possibly, Jericho could have been Canaan's city in what is carbon dated to just after Natufian, starting (carbon dated) 9500 BC, exactly as Göbekli Tepe or Babel was Nimrod's project at that time.
Life conditions changed faster than some would have us believe, when one systematic error they make is taking the carbon years as straight off absolute chronology instead of reckoning with a rise of C14 in the atmosphere.
- Nev Anderson
- 24.III.2022
- All of the founding characters in the bible are completely fictional. Created as the background of a fabricated Origin Story, for the Israelites, who wished to obscure the Fact that they were Canaanites. They fled into the sisJordan region to escape persistent Persian coastal raids.
Their culture, language, gods were all Canaanite.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 25.III.2022
- Annunciation
- Where is your ancient documentation for this background story to the Bible?
I’d not be surprised if you had none, and this is a reconstruction.
- Nev Anderson
- 26.III.2022
- It is spread across countless archaeological discoveries, research by historians, linguists, and lettered experts in relevant fields.
Where is YOUR evidence that anything you assert actually happened?
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 26.III.2022
- “spread across” is not a specific reference
“countless” is not a specific list, does not mention even one
“archaeological discoveries” can be misdated
“research” can be flawed whether by “historians, linguists,” or “lettered experts in relevant fields.”
Why don’t you pick one of them, and we’ll see how it fares?
My evidence is, as shareable with a non-believer is,
- a) a story exists for which the FIRST known audience believed it to be historic.
- b) And other stories of other cultures with similar non-fiction status affirm the same event in other details.
- c) And comparing them all, the Genesis account reads like a wiki for the others, has a more precise bearing in genealogies to later known events chronologically, and a description of an Ark of a more viable type of which the dimensions just so happen to match the cargo in animal kinds and their food, if the kinds correspond to in medium 17 species (which is for instance the case of the hedgehog kind).
- Nev Anderson
- Laetare Sunday
- 27.III.2022
- The assertion that a book of bronze age superstition, lies and fallacies is correct and the entirety of scientists are Wrong is made laughable when one looks at the content of this book.
Such gems as this:
the Earth is flat,
motionless,
set on pillars,
orbited by the sun,
under a star speckled dome,
that keeps out the waters of space,
whilst letting some in through windows,
as rain
Bronze age ignorance encapsulated in a belief in an imaginary bronze age phantasm.
Byeeee.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Laetare Sunday
- 27.III.2022
- Again, more than one "frog blurting out your mouth" ...
"The assertion that a book of bronze age"
So, what is wrong with the Bronze Age, again?
"superstition,"
The Bible doesn't endorse mediums, quite the contrary!
"lies and fallacies"
Detect one liar who is likely to have made even one lie that was believed by the readership or oral audience of Bible texts ..... or a fallacy in promotion of a doctrine.
"is correct and the entirety of scientists are Wrong"
And again, the "entirety of scientists" is not the actual adversity against the Bible. Even if they were, the argument would be a fallacy on your part.
Now for your list of "gems" ...
"the Earth is flat,"
Not there. A globe has as much a circular circumference as a disc. Continents have four corners even if they are posed on a globe.
"motionless,"
OK ... tell me more on who disproved that?
"set on pillars,"
The bases of continental plates would seem to confirm that.
"orbited by the sun,"
Again, who disproved that? Not meaning as in orbital mechanics, but as in actually making a daily circle (presumably performed by an angelic mover).
"under a star speckled dome,"
Reference?
"that keeps out the waters of space,"
More like keeps them up - and they are very high up, starlight is filtered through molecules giving spectral lines for H2 and for H2O.
"whilst letting some in through windows, as rain"
Doesn't actually say that either.
"Byeeee."
I'm fairly free to allow you to go, just so you know it, you are on record, and so is this debate: More Questions on Genesis, Early Chapters, on Quora (go to Q VII)
As a bonus: Bronze Age, the New Slur
I note you gave no answer on my points on historic evidentiality.
- Nev Anderson
- Laetare Sunday
- 27.III.2022
- You make up a lot of nonsense that was never mentioned
and assert the same tired excuses as every other christian.
Seriously this behaviour damages the religion more than anything. Adherents are leaving in record numbers to distance themselves from the lies, discrimination and bigotry.
So, please keep up the good work.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 28.III.2022
- Some people are kind of welcome to leave.
- Nev Anderson
- 29.III.2022
- They welcome the opportunity to leave
religion
'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe
3500 People Leave the Church Every Day
Christian Post: 3500 People Leave the Church Every Day
In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace
Pew Forum: In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace
Religion Declining, Secularism Surging
U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time
Landmark Study Shows Remarkable Growth of Non-Religious Americans
Religion Declining, Secularism Surging
Youth
Young adults around the world are less religious
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 30.III.2022
- Unfortunately people like Gretta Vosper or the late John Shelby Spong, and the equally late Antony Palmer or Tony Palmer and that person’s not so late friend Jorge Mario Bergoglio are not openly leaving.
It’s especially drastic with Bergoglio, since he’s kind of traumatising the Catholic Church with his modernist heresies. Some call him “Pope Francis”.
If you ask me, more than people of my persuasion, it is:
- people like Spong or Bergoglio
- and an Evolution biassed dominance in class rooms
- plus a situation where getting married (and applying “no sex before marriage” in a comfortable way) is more and more difficult for the young.
- Nev Anderson
- 31.III.2022
- Having noted your position, there is no purpose in asking you, the answer is predictable and unrelated to reality.
Your response is a case in point, it says nothing.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 31.III.2022
- You have not been around people like Spong much, I gather … I’m an ex from the Swedish State Church, has its share of them or a bit more.
CSL predicted such people would elicit two responses : if you agree with them, you become atheist, openly, and if you disagree with them, you become a Catholic, as Catholic clergy back then was relatively free from them. I became a Catholic and that remark by CSL had some part in my decision.
- Nev Anderson
- 1.IV.2022
- More irrelevant nonsense to misdirect discussion.
I am done here.
- Q VIII
- Is it possible that Noah’s ark would have become part of Mount Ararat for the last five thousand years or so?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-that-Noah-s-ark-would-have-become-part-of-Mount-Ararat-for-the-last-five-thousand-years-or-so/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Stef Lynn
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
- Answered 17m ago
- It’s possible for the correct landing place in the Mountains of Ararat, also known as the Mountains of Armenia.
I don’t think the presently so called either Greater or Lesser Ararat are the best candidates, like Durupinar and Mount Judi both seem better alternatives, and I especially favour Mount Judi, since it involves 300 km nearly straight Westward removal to Babel, if Göbekli Tepe is it.
- Q IX
- What's the significance in the book of Genesis of some people living for hundreds of years?
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-significance-in-the-book-of-Genesis-of-some-people-living-for-hundreds-of-years/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- John Mulligan
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Catholic convert, reading many Catechisms
- Answered 43m ago
- The fact that they did so.
The lifetimes are not allegoric. In the Genesis 5 genealogy, only two lifespans could be considered as having a kind of symbolic meaning, and the other eight are actually mostly even longer, and one cannot consider these as obviously symbolic as some would like to do with 365 years for Henoch or 777 for Lamech.
So, given there is not even any clue to an allegoric interpretation to ages like …
nine hundred and thirty
nine hundred and twelve
nine hundred and five
nine hundred and ten
eight hundred and ninety-five
nine hundred and sixty-two
nine hundred and sixty-nine
or later on nine hundred and fifty for Noah
… how about accepting it is only interesting to anyone as literal fact?
- Q X
- How do fossils fit with the Bible? Did most ancient fossils come from the worldwide flood?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-fossils-fit-with-the-Bible-Did-most-ancient-fossils-come-from-the-worldwide-flood/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Marc Bloemers
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Sun (20.III)
- I have two theories that concern fossils which, when carbon dated by creationists, show dates like 32 000 or 22 000 BP. You see, I believe Denisovans and Neanderthals are key to the real carbon date of the Flood. 40 000 BP.
One of the theories is, some animals were trapped in land slides up to 100 years after the Flood, when what’s now mountains was still partly mud, so they were mud slides. Another is, part of the carbon 14 exceeding the (to me) expected 0.7 pmC would come from contamination.
Given that the Morrisson formation contains Uranium, the latter idea has gained in credibility with me.
So, most fossils, even those dating younger than 40 000 when creation scientists carbon date them, arguably did live when the World Wide Flood struck.
- Q XI
- Do Africans take their origin from Noah also?
https://www.quora.com/Do-Africans-take-their-origin-from-Noah-also/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Sule Philips Onyilo
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- amateur linguist
- Answered just now
- Yes, through his son Ham and arguably through Ham’s son Kush.
I presumed you meant Black Africans, for North Africans, Egypt hails both from Ham’s son Mitsraim and from Arabic origins, while Maghreb comes from another grandson of Noah plus Arabic and Egyptian origins.
- Added
- 26.III.2022 the debate under some of above continues, and below I have some new questions:
- Q XII
- Was the Tower of Babel humanity’s attempt to force its way back into the divine council?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-Tower-of-Babel-humanity-s-attempt-to-force-its-way-back-into-the-divine-council/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1
- Answer requested by
- Marc Bloemers
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered just now
- No, it was not.
- 1. Humanity has never been “in the divine council”;
- 2. Humanity wasn’t all united doing it, the perpetrators are an unspecified “they” (11:2) which need not refer back to These are the families of Noe, according to their peoples and nations. By these were the nations divided on the earth after the flood. (10:32); the perpetrators of this bad project were an élite, people leaving their homes to go to work in Babel;
- 3. According to Josephus, the ones who took the initiative were worried about next Flood and since God in Heaven had not perished in the Flood concluded Heaven was safe from Floods. If I am correct about the dates, this worry would have occurred in the Younger Dryas, when Doggarlands and some other now offshore regions went down in the waves. So, the tower was kind of “Ark II” but with no initiative from God and with distrust in what God had promised.
- Q XIII
- Where is the location of the Tower of Babel?
https://www.quora.com/Where-is-the-location-of-the-Tower-of-Babel
- A I
- by myself:
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Aug 2, 2021
- Originally Answered:
- What are the present-day towers of the Babel location?
- I’d say for the present day functional versions of it, Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur to name two.
For the present day location of the project as per back in Genesis 11 - Göbekli Tepe.
- A II
- by Jay Altieri, applause please! He will introduce next question too, with his answer.
- Jay Altieri
- Commercial General Contractor and Bible Student
- Answered Nov 12, 2019
- I’m coming from a conservative bible believing point of view. I think the Tower of Babel was an historic event in deep history. The traditional answer has always been that the tower of babel was in Babylon.
In Hebrew babel is BBL (Hebrew has no vowels- it is consonants only). Babylon also is spelled BBL. Same spelling. But does this indicate that it is the same place, or could it be a homograph? A Homograph is 2 different words with same spelling but different meanings. Like seal and seal. An aquatic animal and a rubber stamp impression. Just because they are spelled alike doesn’t prove that they are the same thing.
There are several big problems with Babylon as the location…
1) Pesky archaeology and historic records indicate that the city of Babylon wasn't founded until much later. Maybe around 2500bc. Babylon is either unsettled or so unimportant that it is not mentioned in any Sumerian records. It shows up as a smallish city in the Akkadian or maybe Gutian period. It becomes important with Hammurabi, maybe about 2000bc. This is entirely too late for an historic tower of Babel. We need something Neolithic or Chalcolithic.
2) The ziggurat at Babylon, frequently cited as having been built on the foundations of the tower, has already been thoroughly remotely graphed. Basically with airplanes and satellites they can take subsurface IR images which gives an indication of what is down there. Babylon ziggurat is clay brick filled. The bible says that the Tower was kilned brick (burnt in a fire, not just sunbaked). This shows up differently and much more distinctly on imaging. The professionals don’t think it is there.
3) According to the Bible, after the flood all mankind was of one big family of cousins. It says in Gen 11:1 they journeyed East (presumably from the ark). It is unclear if they went to the East (Iran-ward), or from the East (Syria-ward), but either way Babylon is way down South in Iraq.
4) There is an escarpment just north of Baghdad (which is itself just North of Babylon site). Geologists says this was the ancient ocean shoreline at some point. In Babylon's founding history, the shoreline had already receded, but it is possible that in the remote pre-history of tower of babel that most of southern Mesopotamia was still under water.
5) Gen 11:3 says that they used asphalt for mortar. Oil is plentiful in the Middle East, but there are specific areas that it tends to be located. Suburban Baghdad is not one of them. Oil fields in Iraq are mostly in the N (Erbil) and in the S (Basrah), not so much in the middle (Baghdad/Babylon). For Babel to be located at Babylon, they would need to import the asphalt from far away.
As an alternate location for the tower of babel, some scholars (and I think I agree) have suggested the Khabur river triangle of North Eastern Syria. This is next to the Turkish border. There are a few reasons to prefer this location…
1) it is from the East if Noah's ark landed at Mt Cudi, per ancient tradition (Mt Cudi is a lesser mountain in E Turkey, long associated with Noah).
2) The area of N Syria and SE Turkey are ripe full of Chalcolithic and Neolithic sites. This is the period that interests us for locating Babel. Southern Mesopotamia's bronze age is too late.
3) Curiously, Göbekli Tepe a famous pre-pottery Neolithic site in Turkey is rather close to this region. Less than 200miles. There is nothing Neolithic, this early in Southern Iraq.
4) Sargon of Akkad, a famous ancient king who overthrew the Sumerians came from the North. Akkad has still never been located, but this is generally the right area. Sargon is later about 2500bc in the early bronze age. But his home town Akkad is significant because Akkad is mentioned along with Babel as a city ruled by Nimrod in Gen 10:10.
5) Oil fields in Syria are located in the East, as I'm suggesting for Babel's site. Before drilling, it would ooze up like the La Brea tar pits. It would be easily and readily available.
We don’t know where Babel was located, but somewhere in NE Syria, along the Khabur tributary of the Euphrates seems to fit the model best.
Tell Brak has a lot of potential. Also within the general region Tell Aqab, Tell Baydar, Tell Fakhariya and several others warrant further archaeological exploration, with an eye towards Neolithic/Chalcolithic Babel. Unfortunately, this was the ISIL stronghold until just recently, when now in late 2019 it is a Kurdish/Turkish invasion site. Syria is still in civil war after 10years of violence. It seems unlikely that scholarly and archaeological work can be performed any time soon.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 26.III.2022
- Intro : "But does this indicate that it is the same place, or could it be a homograph?"
Or could it be a Boston / Boston case? The city at 32°32′N 44°25′E could be named for an older, less known, Babel. My take is 37°13′23″N 38°55′21″E
Your reasons against Classic Babylon:
1) "Babylon wasn't founded until much later. Maybe around 2500bc."
Actually, in the Biblical chronology, Babel would have been between 350 and 401 after the Flood, between death of Noah and birth of Peleg. This means, between 2607 and 2556 BC.
Archaeological date for Babylon as in Hammurabi's and Nebuchadnezzar's city must correspond to a later thing, and 2286 BC (as per Ctesias) would be correct for Ninive, not Babylon.
2) "The bible says that the Tower was kilned brick (burnt in a fire, not just sunbaked)."
I am not sure verse 3 refers to exactly the same material as kilned brick, and it does not say this was applied to the actual tower.
3) "It is unclear if they went to the East (Iran-ward), or from the East (Syria-ward),"
Miqqedem means "from the East" and all old translations translate it so.
Babylon would be mainly to the South and on top of that slightly to the East.
4) "it is possible that in the remote pre-history of tower of babel that most of southern Mesopotamia was still under water."
I'd need to check ...
Your reasons to the alternative:
1) "it is from the East if Noah's ark landed at Mt Cudi"
Çudi or Judi, but I agree.
2 - 3) "Neolithic" & "Göbekli Tepe"
I think Göbekli Tepe was the city of Babel, and the "tower" may have been a rocket project (put on hold for 4500 years) rather than a building.
5) "Oil fields in Syria are located in the East,"
I have not taken this into account.
- Q XIV
- Was the historical Abraham a citizen of the Akkadian Empire?
https://www.quora.com/Was-the-historical-Abraham-a-citizen-of-the-Akkadian-Empire
- Jay Altieri
- Commercial General Contractor and Bible Student
- Answered Aug 9, 2021
- Abram, later known as Abraham, was born and grew up in Ur. He likely was a young adult in Ur and had been socialized to culture and society within the Mesopotamian world.
However, the Akkadian empire is a little early. Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish. Whereas, the Bible seems to date Abram's life to 1950bc-ish. These are of course a little bit tentative dates, nobody can be too certain on the precise time. But it is pretty well accepted that Abraham was during the 3rd Dynasty of Ur. (Except for the scoffing secularists, who claim the whole thing is fairy tale.)
Also, you ask if he had been a citizen of that country. Citizenship, at least within a legal definition, is an anachronism within the Mesopotamian world. Citizenship entails a legal status as a member of a particular country with associated rights and protection from that sovereign. Citizenship was invented by the Greeks centuries later. In the 3rd Dynasty of Ur and all of the other ancient Mesopotamian societies, there existed nobility and peasants. Ethnically "us" and foreigner "them." True citizenship had not yet developed.
But the gist of your thought I agree is basically correct. I think Abram/Abraham was an historic person and Genesis relates accurate history.
He had been a denizen of Ur in the Third Dynasty. He left his home and traveled far to Canaan, where he heard God's calling and obeyed.
- אביעד גיל
- August 12, 2021
- Thank you for your answer. The dates given for the birth of Abraham coincide with the fall of the Akkadian empire (due to gutian invasion as well as the 4.2kiloyear event) and rise of the gutian dynasty that originally came from the zagros mountains and were of a different genetic stock to the akkadians. My question is, was the real reason why nimrod demanded the killing of all newborns was due to the fact that he wanted to wipe out the remains of indigenous people of Mesopotamia and alter the demography for his own peoples’(gutian) advantage?
*I’m just a history enthusiast nothing more and bare with me if I’m getting things wrong here
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 26.III.2022
- “However, the Akkadian empire is a little early. Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish.”
Carbon dates or written records of things past?
“Whereas, the Bible seems to date Abram's life to 1950bc-ish.”
In the Roman martyrology for Christmas day, he was born 2015 years BC. This puts Genesis 14 in 1935 (1940 - 1929) BC. The reed mats from En-Geddi are carbon dated to 3500 BC, which matches the event as being before written records, since before fully literate Sumer.
“These are of course a little bit tentative dates, nobody can be too certain on the precise time. But it is pretty well accepted that Abraham was during the 3rd Dynasty of Ur. (Except for the scoffing secularists, who claim the whole thing is fairy tale.)”
Before I accepted that, I’d like to know the III dynasty hasn’t that timespan of c. 2112 BC – c. 2004 BC (wiki) from carbon dates. These dates in carbon chronology would be from when C14 was still rising, from the stay of Israel in Egypt.
- Q XIV, again
- I had missed I had made an own answer, not yet on this blog.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- none/ apprx Masters Latin & Greek, Lund University
- Answered Aug 10, 2021
- I don’t think so.
Abraham had left Ur Kasdim (either Sumerian Ur or Assyrian Urfa, now in Turkey) and then he had fought for Sodom against Mesopotamian rulers when between 75 and 86, see Genesis 14.
But Genesis 14 includes a detail that ties this to Chalcolithic of Engeddi, and the reed mats with evacuated temple treasures are carbon dated to “3500 BC”.
This was, as far as I can see, before the Akkadian Empire, supposing it has been correctly identified with belonging archaeological material.
Jay Altieri:
// Most scholars date the fall of Akkad to circa 2200bc-ish. //
If “2200 BC” has anything to do with a carbon date, it is after Abraham’s times and belongs to the time when Israel was in Egypt.
- Added
- last of March
- Q XV
- How old was Noah in the Ark?
https://www.quora.com/How-old-was-Noah-in-the-Ark
- William Uchtman
- Writer and Author (1986-present)
- Answered Wed 30.III.2022
- It depends on the version you read.
The Bible claims 900, but those numbers came from an antiquated numbering system the Hebrews in the First Century didn’t understand. In recent years, a scholar named Robert Best researching the old Septuginet-Masoretic numbering system of the Sumerian Empire deduced that any historical Noah existed would have been 48 during the 2900 BC food incident.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 31.III.2022
- It seems you are somewhat off.
- 1. Noah was 600 in the Ark, but lived to 950 by living 350 years afterwards.
- 2. There is no such thing as “the old Septuaginet-Masoretic numbering system”. There is a Septuagint text and a Masoretic text, and they differ on details between chapters 5 and 11 in Genesis.
- 3. As they don’t have a specific numbering system, it is not of the Sumerians, let alone of any Sumerian Empire (there was no such thing).
Given this, I am not very sure of the scholar Robert Best either.
The idea that the years were months has been suggested (early on!) and is solidly refuted for the Masoretic text at least, but arguably for the septuagint text too.
- William Uchtman
- 1.IV.2022
- He was 600 in the Bible because the Hebrews writing the story down mistranslated the older numbering system. The correctly deciphered version places Noah around 48. Find the book; it’s an incredible analysis of the myth.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- 1.IV.2022
- There is more probably a mistranslation of the numbering system when pre-Flood patriarch life spans, excluding Adam and Noah, rounded to nearest five years, are multiplied by sixty to give the regnal years of Sumerian King List.
The antediluvian patriarchs and the Sumerian King List
Has it occurred to you, that certain genetic changes could doom populations to dying at 30? One that comes to mind would be untreated diabetes type I.
So, compared to the present normal lifespan, lifespans could theoretically get shortened.
How do you prove the present normal lifespan is not shortened in relation to a previously normal one?
If you look at ages in Genesis 11, the lifespans are already decreasing. Creationists have argued - in a statistically realistic way.
Decreased lifespans: Have we been looking in the right place?
Temporal changes in the ageing of biblical patriarchs
