New blog on the kid: Tolkien's Politics · I Thought That Decree Was by Franco · Why I am Not Capitalist or for Unrestricted Free Market · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolkien Supported Franco's Side in the 36—39 War · Prince Caspian · Lord of the Rings: Motivations for Fandom · Tolkienophobes, Buzz Off! · Tolkienophobe Identified? · J D Vance-Phobes? · Crooks' (or Yearick's?) Body Gone · Sharing On The Shooting
Why Tolkien Supported Franco
Ink and Fantasy | 29 June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NETjQXvhwAU
3:43 "legitimate"?
Like Azaña remained legitimate after allowing Left Wing violence to escalate to the murders of Calvo Sotelo and José Antonio? (Supposing he had been so ... i e that the election had been so ... i e that the Second Republic was so) ...
5:30 Parts of the reason for the brutality of the war was that Franco preferred liberating Moscardó over Madrid.
Do you think Aragorn's choice to get Merry and Pippin from the Orcs owed sth to Franco / Moscardó?
9:35 I think there was, perhaps same letter, perhaps another one, where he considered that some on Franco's side was excessive retaliation, but that a lust for revenge was as natural in those too hardly dealt with, as feelings of lust in a rape victim.
So, he didn't disbelieve all stories of cruelties on Franco's side. I don't disbelieve those involving Yagüe.
It could have been a letter to Michael, though ...
10:43 "and especially"
Fascist régimes apart from Hitler (who had been in two Communist governments in Munich) tended to be not as much Big State as Communism, not as much Big State even in some respects than Progressive Era legislations from US and from Northern Countries.
Remember, Eugenics was not a thing with Mussolini (at least prior to 1938) or Franco (ever, even if Valleja Nájera wanted it), and when Pius XI directly in so many words condemned Eugenics was not in Mit brennender Sorge, it was in Casti Connubii, he was directing those words exclusively against democratically elected régimes at that point. South Carolina and Alberta, Sweden and Norway were not Fascists dictatorships, they had free elections with usually pluri- at least bipartisan candidatures.
I can't for my life see why, in the perspective of 1944, Fascist régimes established in the 20's or 30's should be seen as the prime example of Big State. Apart from that of a man who ought to have remained a painter, if you even will call it Fascist.
11:19 Fascist régimes tied The State to The People.
Guess what. So did the Soviet Union. So did Western Democracies.
Would you mind citing the precise passage in Letter 52 Tolkien considers The State especially dangerous if tied to The People? I don't think you'll find that, actually.
It's not because that was Gänsewein's or Ratzinger's opinion that that was also Tolkien's.
What is really dangerous in my own opinion between State and People is if the State believes itself to be the best representative of the People, a bit like certain aunts and uncles who believe themselves to be the best pals of a five year old nephew. A fad a certain Chesterton wrote about ...
- Fearless Potato
- @fearlesspotato3429
- The state is not the best representation of the people.
The state is the people.
That's not a dangerous concept, that's just the original concept.
Without states there's only individuals and families.
When two or more families decide to work together for a common goal then what unites them is no longer blood and instinct but an unique "state" of the human soul not shared by animals.
The state represents the hierarchy of power created by an invisible agreement between two families or more that work together for a common goal.
If said agreement doesn't exist, no hierarchy exist, there's no co-operation and there's no State.
The only real differences between states is their objectives and composition.
A central national state is built purely on ideology and bureaucracy completely alien to the machinations of the nation and the lives of those who compose the nation.
That's why the central national state is often so Dangerous, it promotes by far the worst kinds of elites possible.
Pre modern Democratic states were also dictatorships however they often were made and maintained by military casts what allowed a certain level of common sense amongst the elites, but even military mandated democracies perished against far more effective monarchical systems.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @hglundahl
- @fearlesspotato3429 My bad, as to expression!
"if the State believes itself to be the best representative of the People,"
I meant "the State" as "government"/"regimen" (in the broad sense, including minor functionaries) and you are talking about "civitas" ...
The civitas, with or without hierarchy, is "the people united under the same laws" ... I was only using "the State" as short cut for "representatives of State power" or "government and civil servants" ...
12:07 When exactly do you pretend Jews were persecuted by Franco's régime?
They were discriminated against prior to Vatican II, as non-Catholics, do you count that as persecution?
W a i t ... there was a total ban on Jewish services, not just a demand that Synagogues should be discrete?
I wonder if Stanley G. Payne is totally accurate on that point ... even if he was, it's not sure Tolkien heard of it. (By the way, he could be miscited by wikipedia).
But there is no question of bloody persecution, and Franco's Spain certainly helped to save Jews. FROM whatever Hitler had in store for them, had Spain not stepped in.
Here is a direct citation from Payne:
"By 1943, the Spanish regime had developed a three-war theory of the global conflict: in the war between Communists and anti-Communists in eastern Europe, Spain was declared to favor the German anti-Communists, where her own [687] troops had until recently been engaged; in the war between the Axis and Allies in western Europe, Spain was neutral; in the struggle between the western allies and Japan in the Far East, Spain favored the allies. Anti-Nazi refugees were given sanctuary in Spain and transit rights elsewhere, and the regime later extended Spanish citizenship to several thousand Sephardic Jews in the Balkans to try to save them from extermination."
A History of Spain and Portugal vol. 2
Stanley G. Payne, Chapter 28: Spain in the Franco Era [684]
https://libro.uca.edu/payne2/payne28.pdf
13:15 There is a source about his friend Roy Campbell.
After the war, he became, not a Franco supporter, but a Carloctavista and resettled in Portugal which suited his views better.
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