Tolkienophobe Identified?

New blog on the kid: Tolkien's Politics · I Thought That Decree Was by Franco · Why I am Not Capitalist or for Unrestricted Free Market · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolkien Supported Franco's Side in the 36—39 War · Prince Caspian · Lord of the Rings: Motivations for Fandom · Tolkienophobes, Buzz Off! · Tolkienophobe Identified? · J D Vance-Phobes? · Crooks' (or Yearick's?) Body Gone · Sharing On The Shooting

Morgan Oviatt

Introducing his answer, with my comment:

What are some reasons why elves are disliked in fantasy settings, such as in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-reasons-why-elves-are-disliked-in-fantasy-settings-such-as-in-the-works-of-J-R-R-Tolkien/answer/Morgan-Oviatt

Morgan Oviatt

Government Employee at 3 Letter Agency

3.VIII.2024

No no. Quora got this one right.

Elves are given “all of the anything you can do, we can do better” powers. They have no empathetic draw. I dont feel bad for jocks or rich kids or people who walk on top of snow without making tracks or people who can see around the curvature on middle earth (taking Hobbits to Isengard)

There was a problem in RPGs to give elves all the powers to the point there was no reason to play anything else. They were their own class as a trade off, because that was supposed to head off the “i can do your job better” mentality as clerics wizards thiefs and fighters. To this day, that “need more ruddy elves” confusion muddies the waters, with Astral Elves and Eladrin.

This caused backlash in games like Talislanta to advertise “5 editions, still no elves“ or “35 years and still no elves.” Talislanta - Still No Elves!

Elves have picked up a serious MarySue association over the years. And all the JRRT apologetics cant change that past. And just because one has invoked the holy JRRT name doesn’t mean we can't discuss the opinions on the book. Blasphemy of texts is good. It shakes the tree to see the truth, like for a blacksmith, Elrond spend no time doing work and taking the credit. And to paraphrase Tolkien . . .“and Elrond reads moonwriting before it shows, and he was at the Battle of Sauron and of course he has one of the Elven Rings and oh yeah, he's daddy in law to Gondor and, um, he is such an eloquent speaker he leads the council and gets to decide the Nine Fellowship. But Boromir is just Boromir.”

Yeah Elves sucking is a legitimate thought process. Some like them, others don't. Both camps have opinions.

Calling people trolls for disagreeing is a move for children. Please don't be a child. It is called othering and leads to racism and sexism and separation of peoples. Bring people ❤️ together.

Deleting answers because they don't agree with a narrow mindset is petty. Don't be petty. Widen your mind. Ask questions, that is why we are on Quora.

I'm not telling anyone how to believe. I am offering a glimpse into why some people don't like a badly written exaggerated fantasy stereotype.

XI LD after Pentecost

4.VIII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

An elf in Tolkien is not badly written just because he’s a bad player character for an RPG.

Novels and romances do not exist to give ideas to Gygax and similar.

I have no doubt there are some things you do very much better for having played RPG’s years and years, but literary criticism is definitely not one of them.

To give a parallel which interests me more. A novel or a novel character is not badly written because he’s hard to make a Donald-verse or Mickey-verse Disney version of. But to be fair to Disney, they have a knack of getting around difficulties.

I was looking for a Disney version of Edmond Dantès, the Count of Monte Cristo, he’s [sure to] be hard to Disney-fy. Well, while I just started the google, I recalled I had actually seen Donald as the Count of Monte Tristo.

Mary Sue is not a literary criticism term on its own, it’s about internal and mutual criticism within a small circle (compared to the general public) of fan fiction writers. In this case a self insert in a fan fiction of Star Trek (a very short “episode”). If a fan fiction with a character of this type were exposed to lots and lots of readers, who weren’t in the fan fiction world as such, we might find out if Mary Sues are really unpopular in and of themselves. Prediction: they are not. Prediction: they are actually highly popular. Pippi Longstocking, Georgina Kirrin (who in my fan fic finally got to terms with being Georgina!), probably Anne of Green Gables, all of them are Mary Sues, and all of them are very popular.

A fan fic writer complaining about a Mary Sue is like a conlanger complaining about Quenya “why did Tolkien take all the nicest sounds for his conlang, how unfair!” …

Morgan Oviatt

While I might agree with some of that or disagree with some of that, none of that explained why people hate Elves.

Mary Sue's like Pippi and georgina in their own fiction are designed to be accepted by the fans. the actual ST Mary sue was an odd duck character in that universe. That is a fair point. BUT…

I am sure you do a lot of things well writing Mary Sue's in your room that nooone reads, but when it comes to literary criticism and conversation …

[unclickable link]

-Braveheart-

He's not wrong.

5.VIII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Quora, at least in France, doesn’t make that kind of video links clickable. This means, I have no clue about what quote of him you imagined applicable to Mary Sues or from there to elves.

As to your grammar, it’s still despicable.

“why people hate Elves”

What you mean, if you are honest and not delusional is:

“why some people, including” [Morgan Oviatt], “hate Elves”

It’s informative that an employee at a 3 Letter Agency (FBI? RCI? other?) hates elves. Or are able to say “I dont feel bad for jocks or rich kids or people who walk on top of snow without making tracks or people who can see around the curvature on middle earth (taking Hobbits to Isengard)” Hope some non-employees read this and think a little about what 3 Letter Agencies your government has.

My guess about where the question came from is pretty warranted by your response.

• Marxists dehumanise the privileged, including rich and talented — bingo.
• Marxists disguise their ideological pet peeves as “objective” literary criticism (I’m taking mine from CSL, an actual literary scholar, not from Marxist RPG players) — bingo.
• Marxists try to “educate” the remainder of the world about their “objective” standards (totally at odds with real objective standards across history) — bingo.
• Marxists dislike what JRRT cherishes — bingo.
• Marxists in or from Texas dislike parts of what makes Texas great (known that since FLDS raid against teen marriages) — bingo.

So, my anger wasn’t all that unfocussed and neither Marxist nor Tolkienophobe (I’m nearly repeating myself, but some Marxists aren’t) were unwarranted.

Feast of Transfiguration

6.VIII.2024

Morgan Oviatt

Why do you think I worry about governmental opinions of elves?

I couldn't care less if you are Marxist. Be like Ayn Rand or William Gibson too for all we care.

You are still stuck dying on a hill and blocked from the forest by that tree in your way.

Thanks for using one of my aliases. It is so rare to see people acknowledge their betters. Very cool. I just didn’t think you could handle my handle.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I’m not worried about whether you care about your government’s opinion on elves.

I’m worried that governments have employees that Marxist, and that eager to impose their Marxism on other people, even if you don’t call it that. I prefer being like Mel and Hudder Gibson, which I think Tolkien would have too.

When I give dialogues from Quora or youtube, I usually give full handles. Either real or fake names, that’s how public they’ve chosen to be. On FB, or copying from them, I often abbreviate unless I know someone is already a public figure.

I guess you already saw the dialogue? Otherwise it’s here:

Tolkienophobe Identified?

Morgan Oviatt

Marxism is an economic and political theory that examines the flaws inherent in capitalism. That term isn't relevant. Grow up.

We are talking about fantasy creatures, not currencies. At best, I'm talking about racial equality. Grow up.

If you don't know what a word means, maybe you shouldn't utilize it yet. If you don't know what a Marxist actually is, maybe you shouldn't use the term. Know Your boogeyman. Develop.

I am Annatar handing out gifts, and you are confusing me with a dirty gold-grubbing dwarf. Tsk-tsk.

Looking into the term Marxist, it is a counter-insult by racists wanting an elimination to basic equalities. I really hope I am not learning more of you each day each time. Just remember that mudslinging leaves you dirty in the mud. Strategize better.

People who disagree with your opinion are not Tolkienophobes. They disagree with you. Noone is scared of John R Ruel. He’s a dead linguistics professor. Not a big threat. Noone is scared of Chistopher. He’s a dead contributor. He doesn’t have necromancer leanings. They are not Nazgul. They are writers. Dead writers.

Even your big boogeyman baddie Karl Marx is a stinky rotter corpse. . . Unless you think undead really are a thing, which means that you accept Mark, Tolkien Sr and Jr are gonna get you for completely shambling their works. Of the people fearing Tolkien, those believing in NecroTolkien would be the real phones. I’m fine, buttercup.

I'm not watching your little foot-stomping rant. I’m not giving your tantrum any desperately needed views, likes, subscribes, or shares. Based on your title, I'm not watching your online witch hunt on people who disagree with your eugenics beliefs and a sycophantic few others. Grow up.

Starting a witch hunt is a good try, but your flailing is too desperate to pick up followers on your own. Maybe let others do the talking. Speak like a Nazgul fart, always silent but deadly.

I don’t know your age. You are not worth the effort, but stop acting pubescent.

I believe in you.

7.VIII.2024

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You know, Marxism is not just a theory on economics. It is not just Das Kapital. Once you go to Engels, you have a whole anthropology.

Part of it is “inequalities are results of evil injustices in the past” …

“At best, I'm talking about racial equality.”

My point precisely.

“Looking into the term Marxist, it is a counter-insult by racists wanting an elimination to basic equalities.”

Oh, definitely not just racists. And what things I want eliminated is not what I would call basic equalities, though I am afraid a Marxist would (The Communist Manifesto is for instance involved in Feminism, heavily).

“People who disagree with your opinion are not Tolkienophobes”

I would admit you are not phobic to his writings. But you are heavily adverse, to the point of phobic to his ideals. Case in point, your reaction to elves. Case in point, pretending it’s a question of “racial equality” when it absolutely isn’t.

“who disagree with your eugenics beliefs”

I’m not a believer in eugenics, and the fact that you took me for one is a case in point showing your Marxist phobias (if not against Tolkien’s writings, at least against his ideas and ideals). I am a heavy opponent of eugenics, precisely as Pope Pius XI was.

In my country, Sweden, the eugenicists in legislational power were Marxists. In Russia, eugenics were turn in turn promoted and discontinued by three Marxists. Lenin took it to research, Stalin and Lysenko of all people discontinued it, thankfully. But it still tinges the Marxist or slightly post-Marxist mentality of even today’s Russia.

Oh, just to get things clear, I’m not just against Marxism, but also Progressive Era changes in the US, Wendell Holmes Jr has no fan in me either.

In many places, among the poor, the feminists are the useful idiots of the eugenicists. “You are just fourteen, you can’t be a mom, you need to study so you can reach equality” (open words of a feminist pushing abortion) = “Your genes are not worth transmitting, brat” (real eugenic motivation).

I admit there are things which Tolkien doesn’t write well. Morgoth and Sauron could probably be improved by Marvel Comics. But one thing he gets right in the villain side is Saruman. Marxists in administration, as well as eugenicists of any non-Marxist persuasion, that’s what I hate.

“stop acting pubescent.”

Thanks, Gríma, no thanks.

A certain amount of Marxist scholars would tell anyone (except me when looking at the particular case) that stamping someone as immature is a domination tactic.

Morgan Oviatt

Wow, you really are scared of the wrong boogeymen on your hill all alone.

Keep your eyes closed. That clip clop sound on the mesas and buttes are definitely Nazgul and not just horses.

It’s neat to learn conspiracy theory from sources.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Thanks, but accurate cultural (and political) history is not a conspiracy theory.

https://www.utpjournals.press/doi/pdf/10.3138/cbmh.31.1.41

Eugenics and Other Evils
http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/Eugenics.html

USSR and Sweden for Eugenics, the well known Catholic Chesterton against it.

8.VIII.2024

Morgan Oviatt

Whatever keeps your tinfoil hat warm while you stand on that hill unable to see the forest because trees are in the way.

Just to remind you of what the forest looks like, Elves are badly written and boring.

You can be mad about that and disagree that Elves are cool, but prove it.

You can stomp your foot and call names you don't understand, but that weakens your argument.

You can redirect and try to change subjects and we put you back on course.

But.

You haven't disproven the statement “to large portions of the population , Elves are unpopular, badly written, weak-minded, unmotivated in the long-term and cowardly. “ … without whining, complaining, mudslinging, redirecting, pouting, or making excuses.

You didn't understand my video earlier, but it was a quote from Braveheart. “Stop changing the subject and Answer the Fokcin’ Question!’

All you have done is flail like Gollum in the night that we have taken your precious.

I told you I was Annatar giving you the gift of truth. Your journey to stall ends…in Doom. My words have the Ring of Truth to them.

Elves Suck: Change My Mind.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I don’t have to.

I can simply say that your little nook of social interaction doesn’t cover the world, and isn’t exemplary.

I could easily find places in Sweden where everyone for breakfast was having:

• a sweet rye bread called kafring
• topped with soft cheese
• and tarama
• and where a glass of milk is more important than a cup of java.

They have about as much reason to deny that France enjoys a breakfast of pastry (croissant or chocolate “bread” being the most favoured) and coffee, often enough black coffee. As you have to take your “sample” as indications there aren’t many people who love elves.

I’m not interested in interacting with Elf haters.

Nor with people who speak of tinfoil hats when confronted with facts.

Or for that matter

people who interpret my replies in the most whining manner possible. I found the time ripe to block him.

I already gave my answer to the question.* Here is an exchange with the same under my previously given answer to it:

XI LD after Pentecost

4.VIII.2024

Morgan Oviatt

This answer seems to have unfocused vitriol. Lots of name-calling. Lots of Anger. No direction.

Lots of people hate Elves.

Here is an RPG made in response to Tolkien.

Talislanta - Still No Elves!
http://talislanta.com/

Elf-displeasure exists.

:)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Lots of people, fine, but lots of does not equal everyone.

I’m not interested in RPG, I can relate to an elf character being hard to play and boring if played badly, but that doesn’t take anything off elves in a literary work.

So, if you are an elf hater because you prefer Talislanta over Tolkien, each to his taste. You had no need to bother me, since I do not share your interest.

5.VIII.2024

Morgan Oviatt

Lots of people, fine, but lots of does not equal everyone.

-So you agree with my hilled forest but are upset over trees on the hill. Sure.-

I’m not interested in RPG, I can relate to an elf character being hard to play and boring if played badly, but that doesn’t take anything off elves in a literary work.

-So that hiled tree example you are focused is what mathematics refers to as an “example” or “sample size”. Elves are poor characters in fantasy as demonstrated, space as Nimoy fought so hard with, or even yearly culture in Solstice malls.

But you want to focus on only Tolkien and only his elves. Fine, let's prune the 1 yard square of weeds.

• Legolas was not a sympathetic character and Tolkien was hamstrung by attachment to let him be injured or develop. Crabp character.
• Elrond was good at so many things he was boring too. Only interesting as the sterotypical dad to a teen. Crabp character.
• Galadriel was the prettiest useless queen ever written in Middle Earth. Crabp character.
• Celebrimbor is lost in a thousand pages of other people doing cooler better stuff and he made Annatar’s rings. Crabp sucker character.
• . . . and those were the almost interesting ones.

I was gonna jump on dwarves but historically the myths of dwarves have them as evil orgiastic peenus punches, so Gimli being different long enough to fight EVEN Sauron's issues was respectfully cool.

So, if you are an elf hater because you prefer Talislanta over Tolkien, each to his taste. You had no need to bother me, since I do not share your interest.

-It's a tree on a hill, not an Ent,. Just step sideways and walk around it. You get to walk downhill after. Don't die on the hill for elves that dont think you are interesting. Give them equal respect. You came to ME and climbed in MY comments and DMs looking for snuggle. Don't get mad if it turns into a pillowfight-

Elves are bad across the board, Tolkien is just most obvious.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“So you agree with my hilled forest but are upset over trees on the hill.”

No, I was upset over you taking your little forest hill for the whole wide world and not telling me which one you were shooting from (certainly not Sherwood, you’d have fled in panic from some of Howard Pyle’s Mary Sues!).

Thanks a bunch for clarifying.

“Elves are bad across the board, Tolkien is just most obvious.”

Thanks a bunch for telling me once again you are a Marxist without saying the actual word!

“You came to ME and climbed in MY comments”

Only after you came into mine (as here). You confuse the history of the conversation, which clarifies you are a Marxist on the internet. (Somehow I think I could have guessed it).

What three letter government agencies are there? On the Federal level, IRC, FBI, CIA and DHS. At least. Not sure whether there are other even more ones on the state level.

* On Quora:

What are some reasons why elves are disliked in fantasy settings, such as in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-reasons-why-elves-are-disliked-in-fantasy-settings-such-as-in-the-works-of-J-R-R-Tolkien/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

and on my blog, second question on this post:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolkienophobes, Buzz Off!
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2024/08/tolkienophobes-buzz-off.html