Me and Messianic Jews

Me and Messianic Jews · Catholic vs Jewish · I'm Annoyed When Some Call Pius XII "Hitler's Pope" ... ESPECIALLY If they are Jews · A Beautiful Meeting (and Two Comments of Mine)

Basically everything they say here, I have in common with them:

Israelis REACT to Isaiah 53 and More!
SO BE IT! | 9.VIII.2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB_ns9fjlWU

Here are two things I wish they had more in common with me:

3:53 Did you say the last book of the Tanakh was Malakhi or Makkabees?

But thanks for citing Malachias, now read 1:11 and answer me, is the prophet describing the Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass or a Protestant Last Supper?

5:10 Speaking of Jewishness, have a look at the historic origins of your neighbours in Bethlehem.

MJ

@JesusSaves77799

May I ask what you mean by this? And also your question about Malachi 1:11 referring to the Catholic or Protestant Last Supper? Thank you!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@JesusSaves77799 Christian Palestinians are their (your) neighbours in Bethlehem.

They have Arabic language (earlier Aramaic, but they changed language in the time of the Counter-Crusade) and they have Catholic or Orthodox Christian religion.

Where do you think they come from?

Hint. They didn't come with Omar.

Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass or Protestant Last Supper.

Which of these fits better with:

For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

Protestants specifically deny that the Mass is a Sacrifice, and some of them even refuse to use the word.

MJ

@hglundahl Ah yes, I understand what you mean about Christian neighbors in the region. Regarding what Protestants believe, they absolutely do believe that Jesus died for all of us. I think they just don’t believe that it’s Jesus’s literal body and blood. They believe that He died once for our sins, and that we are supposed to always remember all that He did for us when we take communion (and eat as well)!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@JesusSaves77799 Well, regardless of the question of whether it's the literal body and blood, there is the question whether the ordinance if I may use the word is remembrance of a sacrifice only or is itself a sacrifice.

On the Catholic view, this is even more central. An Armenian Apostolic priest who doesn't believe literal real presence, but believes he is offering up a sacrifice is on our view celebrating a valid mass. A Lutheran "priest" who usually believes the body and blood are literally there, but who intends to make a remembrance, is not.

Which view, one sacrifice per day and location, or one sacrifice only over history and in one location only, is Malachy 1:11 supporting.

By the way, I am not sure you do understand what I meant about "Christian neighbours in the region".

Lebanese Christians would be of Canaanite tribes, but what tribe is the Palestinian in Bethlehem from? If we go back 3000 years, where would his ancestors have lived?

As you may realise, this depends on what the exact history is since people of the tribes of Judah and Ephraim were Christians in Acts 8 times.

sinergiamdp

@sinergiamdp

@hglundahl Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice to end all useless human sacrifices; that's why

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@sinergiamdp Where does that leave Malachi 1:11?

Let me cite it again.

For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

God's not agreeing with you, since Malachi was and you are not a prophet of God.

joo

@joojotin

@hglundahl Oh and that leaves Malachi 1:11 to the past.

Not every part of guidance in the Bible is for everyone and for every timeperiod.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@joojotin What past?

OT? No, the sacrifice was in ONE place.

Among Hebrews ONLY.

Life of Jesus on Earth?

No, if the Last Supper was no sacrifice, then the Crucifixion was also just on ONE place and mainly if not exclusively among Hebrews.

So, when was this past where every place on earth had a sacrifice pleasing to God among the Gentile nations?

The only possible answer for a Christian is, it's NOT past, it's still happening, it will continue to happen to the end of time. The Last Supper WAS a sacrifice. It's still being offered.

joo

@hglundahl Is your main point that last supper was a sacrifice?

If yes, what is being sacrificed during last supper?

Paul literally says in corinthians that we should take communion in memory of JESUS SACRIFICE.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@joojotin My response disappeared. Reposting.

The Last Supper was both a pre-memorial of AND identic to the bloody sacrifice the following day.

That's why the memorial that happens "from the rising to the setting of the sun" (from east to west) and this "among the gentiles" is not just a memorial, but also a sacrifice, namely precisely as Malachi prophecied.

joo

@hglundahl Again, there is nothing being sacrificed on supper and being ""identic" to bloody sacrifice can only be taken symbolically, because thats all it is.

Not sure of the Malachi verse, Im not too familiar with its context, but havent heard anyone quote that for communion.

I dont remember any instance in bible where time/eating and drinking is referenced as sacrifice for the Lord.

If you want to get technical, everything you do is a sacrifice.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@joojotin No, you haven't heard anyone quote it about Holy Mass or the Sacrifice of the Mass, because you are a Protestant and that means you are not familiar with the Bible.

"Everything you do is a sacrifice" ... well, except sins, and if I offer it up during Mass.

But everything I do is not what Malachi 1:11 is talking about. The year I was converting or had just converted a Lutheran theology student shared Latin classes with me at University.

He admitted Malachi 1:11 is a bit "hard" (vansklig), namely for those denying the Mass is a sacrifice.

You don't admit it, because you are unfamiliar with the Bible, as you admit you are with this verse. That should tell you you ought to flee from your community, unless all of it flees from its Protestant so far past along with you.

@joojotin "I dont remember any instance in bible where time/eating and drinking is referenced as sacrifice for the Lord."

You really are unfamiliar with the Bible.

But Melchisedech the king of Salem, bringing forth [hō·w·ṣî] bread and wine, for he was the priest of the most high God,
[Genesis 14:18]

Well, if his being priest of the most high God was relevant, then his bringing forth bread and wine was a sacrifice.

And the kind of sacrifice Melchisedech brought forth is the one that Christ brings forth, according to King David and St. Paul:

The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.
[Psalms 109:4]

As he saith also in another place: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.
[Hebrews 5:6]

In the Aaronite priesthood you have somewhat similar things:

But if thou offer [taq·rîḇ] a gift of the firstfruits of thy corn to the Lord, of the ears yet green, thou shalt dry it at the fire, and break it small like meal, and so shalt thou offer thy firstfruits to the Lord Pouring oil upon it and putting on frankincense, because it is the oblation of the Lord
[Leviticus 2:14-15]

And for a libation you shall offer [has·sêḵ ne·seḵ] of wine the fourth part of a hin for every lamb in the sanctuary of the Lord
[Numbers 28:7]

Now, Malachi 1:11 has the noun ū·min·ḥāh. When I look up in Strong, the word comes in both brothers' sacrifices in Genesis 4. It's also the word used several times in Leviticus 2. In the intro to what I just quoted.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.

joo

@hglundahl Why are you so pressed?

Im going to study the verses you provided. Your view on the, mass, supper, communion being sascrifice is interesting, and maybe it is sacrifice.

What I do find odd tho, is why that is so important to you. Why is the word so important to you, more than the thing you are doing.

This is one of the least important issues I have ever heard someone argue over.

Lets say they are sacrifice, so what? What now, what changes?

@hglundahl Yes those are helpful, but not what I meant. None of those verses mentioned the drinking or eating being the sacrifice itself.

I also have no idea what you mean by this

"Well, if his being priest of the most high God was relevant, then his bringing forth bread and wine was a sacrifice" what has that have to do with sacrfice?

You also still havent answered what is the sacrifice in supper/communion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@joojotin "Why are you so pressed?"

Sacrifice of the Mass is dogma for us Catholics. It's anathema for the Reformation. It's the one thing the Reformers pretended uniformly to reform against. Plus Purgatory.

"None of those verses mentioned the drinking or eating being the sacrifice itself."

I agree. The communion only seals the participation of the Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Sacrifice is when the priest turns bread and wine separately into Body and Blood of Our Lord. This symbolically puts the actual separation of them (not happening in Mass) on Calvary into our presence.

Obviously I believe there is something that can be sacrificed, the same sacrifice that was sacrificed on Calvary.

I also believe the one on Calvary never involved the Father being angry at the Son.

@joojotin "what has that have to do with sacrfice?"

Priest = sacrificer.