... on Soul

video commented on:

TheAmazingAtheist : Stupid Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MFhlLHCWzk

continued from:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on Abortion
http://assortedretorts.blogspot.fr/2013/07/on-abortion.html

A

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Spermatozoa contain half a human genome. Ovula contain half a human genome. Half a genome only = no human person. As to human feelings of foetus, we do not know whether it feels or not. It has a soul and an eternal destiny to make, the soul is not a computer, thought and feeling are not computer output. Brain is an instrument for it, not that of which it is a byproduct.

Grineolck

You can't demonstrate that souls exist. Your argument is invalid.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You think (I presume, I know I do), and dead matter or for that matter biological functionings do not think. Therefore there is a soul.

Christian Ramirez

"Dead" matter can think. Dead matter makes up living organisms. The most advanced example we have of this is the brain. We also have less advanced things such as computers and robots that can create vocal pasterns from hearing others speak and simulate simple emotions. In the animal kingdom, there is also a direct correlation between brain sises/complexity and output (including thought, emotion). Besides, there is no medical/scientific proof of a soul. However, this does not matter for this.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Dead matter does not think. Living organisms are not dead matter. They are not even made up from only dead matter, but from some kind of soul as well. A creature with only a plant soul or animal soul cannot think either. Computers cannot think. Their simulation of patterns of thought is comparable to an abacus' simulation of matematical thought: beads do not think, strings do not think and frame does not think. Mathematician handling abacus does think.

Christian Ramirez

Plant soul? Animal soul? Not even the bible specifies plant souls.(feel free to object) Right now every field of science (physics, biology, astronomy, geology) agrees that all known life (including brain) is carbon based (made up of 4 main elements). No branch of science has ever accepted the concept of souls. You can not prove your point with a simple analogy. We are just a simulation of repeated patterns and instincts from DNA. We are more complicated than an abacus, therefor better.

B

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Spermatozoa contain half a human genome. Ovula contain half a human genome. Half a genome only = no human person. As to human feelings of foetus, we do not know whether it feels or not. It has a soul and an eternal destiny to make, the soul is not a computer, thought and feeling are not computer output. Brain is an instrument for it, not that of which it is a byproduct.

Christian Ramirez

• [1) ...?]
• 2) There is no scientific proof of a "soul" or "eternal life". Those things are pure conjuring of human imagination. (I do not want to debate religion right now) Through medical science ("brain scans") we know that the brain produces thought and feeling and the brain is a computer. (a very complicated, ever-changing and awesome computer) Visual, audio, ect. input goes to the brain, it performs calculations, and outputs action signals. We can read these signals. They do not pas through the soul.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The signals in the brain are tools for the soul. The soul reads them as images, whereas from outside we read them as electric signals. They are not the soul. They are not its thoughts, just imagery accompanying them.

Christian Ramirez

Again, get me scientific proof of your claims and I will consider this point. However, why does the presence of a soul matter for the abortion debate's sake? I wouldn't care about anyone any less or more if they had a brain or a soul. Even if the signals from the brain are tools for the soul, either way there must be a brain present for input and output. I assume you are religious? Religion has so far not contributed to science.(it has to other things) Do not expect me to take it seriously.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Do you consider astrology science? St Augustine rid astronomical inquiry of the astrological superstition for centuries over astronomers who were also Christians. Do you consider the workings of nature as bound by fixed laws essential to science? Christianity contributed vastly to such an understanding of nature. Author of Theogony or Red Indian Shamanists are not what scientists are made of - nor are matter ignoring and nature ignoring Platonists. Aristotle gets some pre-Xtian creds though.

Christian Ramirez

True, that there were and are many Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, ect. scientists who have contributed to science. I acknowledge this already. I Don't have anything against them either. However, (I should have been more clear) the Bible scriptures have not contributed at all to science and even contradict it in some areas. I can not take any unproven or untested hypothesis or idea into consideration in a serious argument..

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) St Augustine who contributed to ridding science of astrology did so because of the Biblical story of Jacob and Esau - same hour born and thus same horoscope. But different fates and characters.
• 2) We can have a branch off discussion on where Bible contradicts "science" if you like.
• 3) As already said, soul is not an unproven concept nor a mere hypothesis. Materialistic explanations of thought merely break down, logically. Even without the Bible to start with.

Christian Ramirez

• 1) "Did so because of" does not qualify. That is a Christian inspired by Christianity. He is not the actual Bible.
• 2) No. Since you quoted science, I am lead to believe you do not trust it. It would be useless to have a scientific discussion with one who disbelieves science.
• 3) Your explanation was "Nothing dead can think, therefore we have a soul" I stated that dead things can think. You dismissed this because dead things can't think. This is a yes, no yes, no argument. I will provide proof.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• 1) St Augustine is not the actual Bible, but the story of Jacob and Esau is in it, and it contradicts astrology.
• 2) As Dawkins said about debating creationists - after debating Edgar Andrews earlier on .... or as Pentecostals say to you about "debating the Bible" when you do not believe the Bible.
• 3) I have seen the lists, will answer.

Christian Ramirez

• a) There exist machines that can closely recreate memories just from reading brain signals.
• b) Psychological conditions can be cured through stimulating brain nerves.
• c) Deterioration of the brain will cause loss of thought and memory.
• d) Do psychopaths, narcissists, and pyromaniacs have defective souls?
• e) In the animal kingdom thought, memory, and intelligence are directly correlated to brain complexity.
• f) Psychological conditions can be detected in the brain. Continued...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Qualification for F - conceded if we speak of very basic states, like alpha state, wake, asleep, angry, sad, happy.

Christian Ramirez

f) No. I speak of bipolar disorder, narcissism, pyromania, psychopathy ect. These types of conditions or disorders.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

If you try to detect those by brain scan, to detect someone's morality by encephalograms, you are a scoundrel and a sham scientist. That is all there is to it.

Christian Ramirez

Not morality... Just mental illness or disorders. (that could effect morality) Besides, according to you, what causes "multiple personality disorder"? This interests me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sorry, but narcissism is a statemant about morality, whether you rephrase it as a statement about mental illness or not/ I do not know what multiple personality disorder is, or whether it is even the same thing in all cases or whether it is even a disorder in all cases. According to Chesterton all women have multiple personality, which is why polygamy does not really add to the variation. It can also be manufactured with hypnosis pushed to extreme.

Christian Ramirez

No, all women do not have multiple personality disorder. It is always a disorder. It involves a person with multiple selves/personalities inhabiting the same body. (such as a little boy, a murderer, a teenage girl) They choose to address each personality as its own person. Usually this disorder comes about after abuse as a child, but may come out of nowhere in some rare occasions. ...And no. They are not faking it. Some of their personalities often try to kill themselves. No one's faking.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

When a personality tries to kill himself that may very well be a disorder, because killing oneself is. Chesterton did not say all women have multiple personality disorder, just that they all have multiple personalities - usually of course without it being a disorder. Some of the hypnotic induced stuff may well bethere for demonic collaboration with hypnotist. Some of the murderous or suicidal stuff without a hypnotist similarily.

II

Christian Ramirez

• a) There exist machines that can closely recreate memories just from reading brain signals.
• b) Psychological conditions can be cured through stimulating brain nerves.
• c) Deterioration of the brain will cause loss of thought and memory.
• d) Do psychopaths, narcissists, and pyromaniacs have defective souls?
• e) In the animal kingdom thought, memory, and intelligence are directly correlated to brain complexity.
• f) Psychological conditions can be detected in the brain. Continued...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• C - conceded. Soul's work is tied to brain. Does not prove it is of the brain.
• E - very roughly so, and in the animal kingdom under man there is no real thought. Forethought and considerations, but not real thought.
• A, B and F - clearly doubtful about purported fact or interpretation of observations. [For F, see qualification above]
• D - there are exemples of sin and there are examples of misdiagnosis in those cases (in "pyromaniacs" that includes false charges of arson). Either "these" or their observers have a sinful soul.

Christian Ramirez

• I will address E and C later.
• a) People were shown a movie. Without any previous input the computer was able to extract parts of the movie from their minds. People imagined something. The computer recreated these images The people confirmed their authenticity.
• d) All narcissists, psychotics, and pyromaniacs aren't misdiagnosis.Some can be cured through altering the brain.
• b) Curing someone of a mental illness is not up to interpretation. He is either cured or mentally ill/recovering.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

As to your b - there is also misdiagnosed and that is more common than any other.

Christian Ramirez

I assume you meant d? I can personally disprove this. I am a diagnosed narcissist. I can attest to the diagnosis even before I was diagnosed. I have helped many people. (not for attention or praise) A purely sinful soul would not help someone.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I meant "b) Psychological conditions can be cured through stimulating brain nerves." I do not know whether you have helped or marred the ones you think you have helped. No soul is "purely sinful" but sinful in some areas at worst (not getting in to how that worked out for Nimrod or will work out for Antichrist). Helping one by doing ill in other respects may be sinful. Imagine one is helping while doing the reverse is sinful when it is not just stupid.

Christian Ramirez

Do not bring about the possibility of my help "delusion". You are trying to avoid a conclusion. I know who I've helped and who I've marred. The difference between the two is monumental. This is my last post. I have a 1 month vacation ahead of me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

We do not always know what is really helpful. And I do not think your science is always helping you to know that. Enjoy your vacation.

III

Christian Ramirez

[g - m see below]

• n) Emotion, thought, and memory (everything) can be attributed to a certain spot in the brain. This info has been correctly used.
• o) Personality can be measured through brain activity.
• p) Animal thought and emotions can be altered through altering the brain.
• q) Alzheimer's? How does a space-less entity lose information?
• r) The brain can spontaneously kill you, or is that the soul?
• s) Drugs effect judgement and thought. We've tested it on brain cells.
• t) The brain encourages lust. Continued...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• N - emotion, imagery of thought, imagery of memory - conceded. Not conceded as to conceptual parts of thought or memory or as to will as to emotions.
• O - no, unless by "personality" you mean prevalence of this or that basic state (anger, sadness, wide awake, alpha state ...)
• P - animals have no thought properly speaking. As to emotions and forethought and consideration, see C and E.
• Q R S - see C.
• T - so? We are sinful.

Christian Ramirez

• n) No. By everything, I mean everything.
• o) By personality I mean primitive thinking styles, strives, goals, view of others, ect.
• p) We have plenty of experiments confirming animals do have every thought and emotion humans have. Every single one, individually.
• t) God created the soul. Why would God program it to want to sin? Isn't Satan responsible for all sin?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• N, O, P You are dead wrong.
• T - we sin because we abuse our free will. This is not "programmed" by God, insofar as we are too weak, it is due to Adam's sin. Satan temps but rarely forces anyone to sin, each remains responsible for his deeds.

Christian Ramirez

I'm currently doing something and may have to leave for a month. (summer vacation off work) but I will ask one question. If Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge because God told them not to, how did they know that not listening to God was wrong. After all they had no knowledge until they ate from it.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

They had that much knowledge. What exact knowledge they had not or imagined they had not about good and evil is debated. But they had that much knowledge.

IV

Christian Ramirez

• g) People who don't have a brain are dead.
• h) Removal of half the brain causes psychological and social conditions.
• i) Removal of everything except for cerebellum causes only instinct to remain.
• j) An isolated brain will break down in confusion. (electrical signals)
• k) Toxoplasma gondii alters human emotion.
• l) Some organisms can enslave others through brain signal manipulation.
• m) Splitting of the brain hemispheres can make 2 people. Continued....

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• G conceded if you mean lacking not only cerebrum and cerebellum but also medulla oblongata. Otherwise not conceded.
• H, I, K - conceded, see further what already was said about C.
• J - not knowing what you mean.
• L - I presume both organisms are beasts, but even if victim were a man, that would fall under C.
• M - not conceded as to 2 actual people.

Christian Ramirez

• g) I mean lacking at least the cerebellum. (Shot in the head)
• j) When isolating a brain (keeping it alive outside the body) it will not calm itself as you would expect if we had a soul (since in heaven all that exists are our souls). It goes crazy as if it weren't meant for isolation.
• m) It has been tested. There exist multiple individuals with only half a brain which are considered and cared for as people. Conservation of the other hemisphere will keep 2 different personalities.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• G - Shot in the head is not just "lacking the cerebellum" it is also usually making medulla prolongata dysfunction.
• J - In Heaven bodies do exist. Souls are meant to be reunited to their bodies. That experiment is so evil, anyone who does it looses moral sense and his conclusions on subject are not trustworthy at all. Same for M.

Christian Ramirez

j) There was a really immoral & messed up scientist who experimented with monkeys. He took the brain out of a monkey and put it in a different one's body. It slightly worked. (because he could not properly connect it) He might'ave been a sick & evil person but his work was well documented by many others. It's trustworthy. [To possible deleted parallel comment of mine: Evil does not mean untrustworthy. He was obsessed with science. He, nor his men, nor his documents lied.] Obviously the "soul" doesn't care about the body if it can switch to a different one and function. Also, do siamese twins get their own bodies in heaven? Obviously acording

Hans-Georg Lundahl

The brains of monkeys do not necessarily reflect the souls of men. The men who documented the work for him were nearly as evil, or possibly worse than the scientist. Slightly worked because he could not properly connect it? Then the monkey died, I presume? A soul cannot switch to a different body and function. A soul makes its bdy function while alive. A human soul then lives or agonies without body up to resurrection. And then it gets its body back. Dunno what Siamese twins get or want.

V

Christian Ramirez

• u) How can a space-less, material-less entity communicate with a material entity? That type of signal doesn't exist.
• v) Ones changes of mind and emotion can be attributed to the brain rewiring.
• w) Neuroscience medically works in practice.
• x) If souls are eternal, why are we scared of death?
• y) Some thoughts are controlled by instinct. Editing certain parts of the brain can change instinct and thought both directly and indirectly.
• z) Why is there a brain if we have a soul? It's useless.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

• V - or the reverse.
• W - and in practise it is sometimes maiming patients. I was going to add neuroleptics to item C ...
• X - because the body too is us.
• Y - examples?
• U - you are presuming that the space-less and material-less entity communicates with the material entity as two material entities with each other via signals, if at all. In case of man's rational soul, it is the substantial form of the body and participates in its experiences (which explains C). Also answers Z. God and angels need no brains, but spirit has naturally control over matter. Rather than reverse or "no-contact".

Christian Ramirez

u) You do not need signals to communicate between even 2 material objects. I know this. Please explain your concept of a soul in depth so I may properly reply.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Between two material objects you could have signals or physical contact. My concept of spirit - and man's soul is a spirit - is one where the fundamental capacity of knowledge and of decision is not tied to matter, but can nevertheless observe and control more or less of it. Man's spiritual soul is a special case insofar as it is the substantial form of the whole body. It therefore observes or controls matter exterior to it only through its bodily organs for sense or handling. B[ut] spiritually.