... on the Anti-Vatican Smut that Came from Avro Manhattan to Serbs / my codebator not being guilty of it

1) New blog on the kid : Ukrainian Catholic Flee Crimea?, and from comments on same link: 2) Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on the Anti-Vatican Smut that Came from Avro Manhattan to Serbs

As said, from comments on same link:

Catholic Herald co uk : Priest: Ukrainian Catholics flee Crimea to escape threats of arrest
By Jonathan Luxmoore on Tuesday, 25 March 2014
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/03/25/priest-ukrainian-catholics-flee-crimea-to-escape-threats-of-arrest/

However, this was a somewhat other topic:

JBQ

Sadly, this issue goes back to WWII and the conflict between Catholic bishops in Germany, Austria, and Croatia. They supported Hitler as a repellant to Russian Orthodox Slavs. In Croatia, there was a campaign to eradicate the Orthodox much like you would stamp out roaches. Many were murdered including priests, women, and children with many of the murders very grotesque. It must be remembered that Constantine changed the Roman Empire to Christianity and then moved it to Constantinople. This is a religious conflict and what makes it all the more complex is that the Bolsheviks infiltrated the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Veronica

Nonsense. Blessed Stepinac, a Croatian Catholic Cardinal stood up as the foremost opponent to crimes committed by ALL sides in the 'former Yugoslavia' during the War. He was subsequently poisoned while under house arrest by Tito's government. Sadly during WW2 and in the 'Balkan wars' of the 1990s, the Orthodox Church stood front and centre with Serbian soldiers, including Chetniks, the same monstrous 'soldiers' who slaughtered Bosnian Muslims and Croats in Eastern Bosnia in WW2 including the nuns called the Martrys of the Drina River. The Serbian Orthodox Church is terribly nationalistic and sees the Church in Rome as an affront and blames Catholics and Muslims for all their ills instead of looking at Serbian expansionist history. When Pope John Paul 2 came to Bosnia in the 1990s Serbs and members of their church went ballistic.

JBQ

Basically, you don't know what you are talking about. Medjagorje was the scene of one of the most violent of the butcherings. Orthodox priests had unspeakable atrocities done to them. They were literally butchered. Franciscans at that same site wore their religious "uniforms" as commandants of a concentration camp which was used to reindoctrinate Orthodox Serbs. Stepinac was misguided. Croatian Nazis were rigidly supported by Catholics and considered all Orthodox Serbs as the enemy. Mihavalich was a Chetnik leader who supported the reinstallation of the monarchy in Croatia. The Americans and Brits sold him out and he was captured by Tito and then executed. President Truman rightfully honored his memory. Tito was seen as a bulwark against Communism. He too turned on Stepinac. The Bosnian Muslims were a remnant of the Ottoman empire. They formed an alliance with the Croats in order to reclaim their land and were in the forefront of the butchering of Serbs. This left a sour taste with the Serbs and they retaliated in the 1990s. You have a lot of gall to even postulate that the Orthodox were completely wrong and the Catholic Croats were completely right. There were a lot of atrocities and betrayal on both sides. Bosnian Muslims continue to have their own agenda. Why do you think that the Blessed Mother had to intervene at Vienna to stop the Muslim advance? Islam is a cancer and we have a president whose father was one whose son is viewed in the Muslim world as a Muslim.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Sorry, but whatever truth there is to the atrocities, the story about Stepinac's involvement or about "Catholic bishops in Germany, Austria, and Croatia" supporting Hitler is balderdash.

I suppose you are relying on Avro Manhattan's lies from "The Vatican's Holocaust". Did you know he was a Jew?

Did you know Jews hated Pius XII because:
a) they were part of international brigade
and
b) he congratulated Franco to the victory 75 years ago
or
did you not know that?

The following blog post shows a Russian Orthodox priest who was NOT misled by Avro Manhattan:

Rorate Cæli : The Passion of Spain comes to an end, 75 years ago
Message of His Holiness Pope Pius XII
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-passion-of-spain-comes-to-end-75.html

JBQ

Pius XII did great things under trying circumstances. Franco saved Spain from Communism. Croatia attempted to copy the methods of Franco. Catholic bishops endorsed the Anschluss in Austria. These were trying times with forces from the right and left out to destroy society. Stepinac attempted to resist Communism and was taken in by fascism. Mihailovich of the Chetniks resisted Communism and was accused of collaborating with the Nazis. The Brits and Americans supported Tito as an independent Communist and allowed Tito to take the Chetnik leader and execute him. America has no concept, no concept at all, of the turmoil in the Balkans. The same turmoil exists in Ukraine today. Islam is the wild card.

HGL

Sorry, I was thinking you were promoting the lies against Stepinac.

I do however not agree he was "taken in by fascism".

He was initially under illusions about Ustashi, yes. But "fascism" is an ideal, whether right or wrong, and as such distinct from people who with honesty or hypocrisy pretend to represent it.

If he liked fascism, maybe he continued to do so after distancing himself from Ustashi and trying to save as many innocent lives - including both Serbs and Gipsies - from them.

And in that case his initial liking for it, unlike his initial liking for Ustashi, was not "being taken in".

Turmoil is a very good description of quite a lot of the XXth C. Including but not limited to Balkans then and later, or Ukraine earlier and now.

Islam is the wild card? True, one does not always know in advance whether what they will do is good or bad.

JBQ

The Ustashi were basically Nazis. A number of religious orders supported them and even joined with them. There were reports of Franciscans in uniform running concentration camps for Serbs. They were supported by Islam and that is why there was a lot of turmoil from the Serbs in the 90s. Way back in the Middle Ages, Islam had overrun the area and it was similar to the taking of Constantinople. I have been to the Metropolitan Museum in New York a lot more than once. There are a number of artifacts from Byzantine times. The entire civilization was based on Christ and the family. This was wiped out with the creation of Istanbul. Western Christianity still hates Byzantium. All manner of abuses have crept into the Western Church in the name of world socialism. Stepinac evidently saw the light and tried to fight the influx of national socialism of which the present American administration is only one more example.

HGL

There are a number of artifacts from Byzantine times. The entire civilization was based on Christ and the family.

True enough, but even more true of the Latin West especially in the times of St Alexis Falconieri. (He died in 1310, before Kosovo Polje).

There were reports of Franciscans in uniform running concentration camps for Serbs.

I know of Majstrovic, he was excommunicated and thrown out of the Franciscan order. Or if it was only one of the two, it was perhaps not safe for Stepinac to pronounce openly an excommunication against someone favoured by the Ustashi.

A number of religious orders supported them and even joined with them.

Entire orders? Sure you do not mean religious FROM orders?

I will not believe all Franciscans were Ustashi for a moment.

Then there is Ustashi support and Ustashi support, precisely as among Germans there was Nazi support and Nazi support. Someone might like Hitler or Pavelic at first sight because he thinks a humiliated nation will get its own back again. Not unlike how Serbs had been humiliated in Kosova and then started liking one Milosevic who promised this would never happen again.

Western Christianity still hates Byzantium.

No.

Both Latin Catholics and Protestants tend to like Byzantines better than each other. Protestants that attack Catholics will say "look at the Orthodox, they don't have a Pope". Catholics that attack Protestants will say "look at the Orthodox, they honour the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints, and their Monks and Nuns, and they have Seven Sacraments and Holy Mass is a sacrifice and they have all our 73 books in their Bibles".

Some Western Christians who prefer Muslims over Byzantines are technically Protestants but actually more like Apostates.

All manner of abuses have crept into the Western Church in the name of world socialism.

World socialism is abusive anywhere. Even among Orthodox who accept things like Evolution and Heliocentrism and Psychiatry.