Monday, January 12, 2015

... on Kent Hovind's having been in prison (again) - still doesn't change he's nearly genius for a man born XXth C. and also a Prot

Under a video where KH sorts out contradictions (supposed such) in the Bible ...

You're using a convicted felon to present your case?


felon does not change his teaching credentials or the facts he presents.. all it does is give you an illogical reason to not believe.

You're correct in that it doesn't improve his mail order credentials. His 'Doctorate' comes from the Patriot Bible 'University' - an unaccredited correspondence school. Have you seen his dissertation? If you have any tertiary education, you'll have some laughs with it. It begins with 'Hello, my name is Kent Hovind' He freely admits that he's an evangelist - he's neither a scientist nor a teacher.

The reason I don't believe a word he says is because I've heard what he had to say, and it's bullshit. Complete bullshit.

Now, you're very wrong with regards to being an illogical reason to not believe. If you believe a word he says or has said, then you're either incredibly gullible or incredibly stupid.

+HeathLedgersChemist its accredited by the state... many major universities have 'mail order' classes now so that is not an issue.. facts are bullshit? guess if you dont want to hear it that would be true...

It's 'accreditation' comes from 'Accrediting Commission International', which itself is not recognised by either Council for Higher Education Accreditation or United States Department of Education, the two institutions responsible for recognising educational accrediting institutions in the United States.

I guess they don't teach things like that in home school?

+HeathLedgersChemist considering what the DOE and CHEA have certified over the last 50 years (dumbing down) the ACI is probably worlds better .. I have seen the schools the gov certifies and most of them are crap.. what graduates high school now would not make it out of jr high when i was in school.

+Starrwulf7 You made the claim that the Patriot 'University' was accredited by the State. That is clearly a lie. When I presented you with its actual 'credentials', you refuse to admit your lie and then try to claim that a dodgy 'body' is somehow better than an actual academic body.

You Sir are dishonest and a blight on humanity. I will have nothing further to do with you.

+HeathLedgersChemist last i checked, colorado IS a state :: Accrediting Commission International (ACI) has made an on-site visit and awarded Patriot Bible University with full accreditation as of October 2008.

Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Commission for Higher Education to grant religious degrees at the Associate, Bachelors, Masters and Doctoral levels.

There is NOTHING in your argument that proves his education is inferior to any other accredited center.

There is nil requirement to use upper case to emphasize a word, I have a tertiary education and hence capable of understanding the English language in its entirety. I guess the same may not be said of you, good Sir.

Colorado is indeed a states of the United States of America, It however only recognises the PBU to grant religious degrees. From their own website: Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Commission for Higher Education to grant religious degrees. Do you understand that a religious degree is not a science degree?

(Who Accredits Patriot Bible University?

You seem to think that ACI accreditation is somehow valid.

Accrediting Commission International (ACI)... is an unrecognized educational accreditation corporation in the United States and ACI is not recognized by either Council for Higher Education Accreditation or United States Department of Education, the two institutions responsible for recognizing educational accrediting institutions in the United States.

(Wiki : ACI

[Article links to ACI /]

You may also care to peruse the quackwatch website for their view:

Quackwatch : Great Moments in Accreditation: The Case of IAC, ACI, and The Three Stooges
by John Bear
[John Bear is an author based in El Cerrito, California. For 12 years he was the FBI's principal consultant and expert witness on diploma mills and fake degrees.*]

Or possibly the list of fakes on geteducated:

GetEducated : List of Fake College Degree Accreditation Agencies*

Do you still want to stand by your claim?

+HeathLedgersChemist quackwatch.. interesting.. but they only list possible quacks according to their definition.. i saw where someone listed them as a diploma mill.. their definition is different than mine since patriot requires classwork and diploma mills do not. you still have yet to prove his education was substandard, it may just as well be way above what is considered standard. all this is pointless anyway since you are using it to attack the man instead of disproving the facts. such attacks usually mean you cannot disprove what he says.

! Great minds think alike !
“such attacks usually mean you cannot disprove what he says.” = about what I say later …

That cognitive dissonance can be annoying.

+HeathLedgersChemist i am sorry you suffer so much with that.. i will pray for you

Don't bother addressing anything or acknowledging errors, I wouldn't expect a Christian to be honest.

+HeathLedgersChemist better a christian than an atheist.. we have morals while they only have ethics

Morals from the bible? Killed any children lately? And where do you buy your slaves?

+HeathLedgersChemist i see you are confused by apples and oranges again.. i feel so sorry for you.. must be because you forgot to go to your local abortionist for your shots...

You're denying that the bible sanctions killing children and owning slaves?

are you denying you use products from aborted babies and evolution is your religion?

Come on now, let's address the subject at hand. You've made the claim that the bible provides a moral framework not available to non-Christians. I have asked you some very simple questions, and you're trying to change the subject.

Answer the questions.

morality is governed by a God and ethics are governed by those who agree to be bound to it... you claim to be godless and as such you would not understand how it works since you use modern concepts and modern meanings for ancient meanings. its apples and oranges.. i have no desire to get into a discussion of what is morally right and wrong with someone who feels its ok to flavor thier drink with aborted babies. Just because you believe it is ok for you to kill someone else to improve your life in the name of evolution does not mean i want to be part of that.

no one is changing the subject. by definition, you are not a moral person and are not honest except when its to your benefit.

Answer the questions.

you did not answer yours

You are a dishonest and I will have nothing further to do with you.

Otto Matts
There are a LOT of convicted felons that are allowed to "teach" at universities. Such as:

  • Bill Ayers
  • Bernardine Dohrn
  • Mark Rudd
  • Kathleen Cleaver

Hans-Georg Lundahl
+Otto Matts I have not checked, but will.

Checked Bill Ayers:

"He is known for his 1960s radical activism as well as his current work in education reform, curriculum, and instruction. In 1969 he co-founded the Weather Underground, a self-described communist revolutionary group[2] that conducted a campaign of bombing public buildings (including police stations, the U.S. Capitol Building, and the Pentagon) during the 1960s and 1970s in response to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War."

"Bernardine Rae Dohrn (née Ohrnstein; born January 12, 1942) was a leader of the Weather Underground, a group that was responsible for the bombing of the United States Capitol, the Pentagon, and several police stations in New York, as well as a Greenwich Village townhouse explosion that killed a member of the Underground.[1] As a member of the Weather Underground, Dohrn helped to create a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, and was placed on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, where she remained for three years. From 1991 to 2013 she was a Clinical Associate Professor of Law at the Children and Family Justice Center at Northwestern University School of Law. She is married to Bill Ayers, a co-founder of the Weather Underground, who was formerly a tenured professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago."

"Mark William Rudd (born June 2, 1947) is a political organizer, mathematics instructor, anti-war activist and counterculture icon most well known for his involvement with the Weather Underground."

+Otto Matts Kathleen Cleaver seems rather to have been married to one:

"She was in charge of organizing a student conference at Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee. At the conference, Kathleen met the minister of information for the Black Panther Party, Eldridge Cleaver. She moved to San Francisco in November 1967 to join the Black Panther Party. Kathleen Neal and Eldridge Cleaver were married on December 27, 1967. Cleaver became the communications secretary and the first female member of the Party’s decision-making body. She also served as the spokesperson and press secretary. Notably, she organized the national campaign to free the Party’s minister of defense, Huey Newton, who was jailed. In 1968 (the same year her husband ran for president on the Peace and Freedom ticket) she ran for California's 18th state assembly district, also as a candidate of the Peace and Freedom party. Cleaver received 2,778 votes[1] for 4.7% of the total vote, finishing third in a four-candidate race.[2] As a result of their involvement with the Black Panther Party, the Cleavers were often the target of police investigations. The Cleavers’ apartment was raided in 1968 before a Panther rally by the San Francisco Tactical Squad on the suspicion of hiding guns and ammunition. Later that year, Eldridge Cleaver staged a deliberate ambush of Oakland police officers during which two police officers were injured. Cleaver was wounded and fellow Black Panther member Bobby Hutton was killed in a shootout following the initial exchange of gunfire.[3] Charged with attempted murder, he jumped bail to flee to Cuba and later went to Algeria."

john myers
+Starrwulf7 "Patriot Bible University is authorized by the State of Colorado Commission for Higher Education to grant religious degrees..."

LOL, what joke. A "religious degree", what is that? Kind of like saying he is part of the Peter Pan Society. The man was caught being dishonest, breaking the law, trying to avoid his obligations so the rest of us could pick up his slack. His own son, Eric, candidly talks about how his father achieved presenting his ideas on a "4th grade level". Listening to you it seems maybe he should have brought it down even further.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"A 'religious degree', what is that? Kind of like saying he is part of the Peter Pan Society."

Don't try saying that in Sweden where state sponsored universities like Lund and Uppsala give degrees in theology.

Obviously they are giving a modernist version, but it is still "religious degrees".

As far as I know the Hovind felony charge, he did not lie, he told the truth and was not believed.

Dr Dino was NOT a commercial enterprise, but a registered charity. From it he and his family did not have wages, but lived as volunteers.

I. e. he had no taxable income.

He also lived accordingly, i.e. frugally. As to anything concerned with his personal life, that is. Obviously he did spend on keeping the charity going - which was what the tax deductable gifts to that charity were mainly provided for anyway.

Had he been believed in this fact he would neither have been convicted for tax fraud nor for lying to fisc. Incorrect judgements happen - like Stalin trials or like trial against Stepinac where he was falsely accused of collaboration with Ustashi genocide project.

"His own son, Eric, candidly talks about how his father achieved presenting his ideas on a '4th grade level'."

The degree he had was in education. His dissertation was erroneous and atrocious, but so was Karl Marx' doctoral thesis.

Actually he is partly indebted to one of its erroneous ideas, namely when St Paul warns against philosophy and knowledge falsely so called it's not supposed to be against Epicurean heresy in philosophy but against Plato and Aristotle - even though Stoics and still more Epicureans were really the vogue back then.

But presenting an idea correctly on a 4th grade level does not mean the same as presenting an idea incorrectly so as to make 4th graders not doubt it - which is what evolutionists often do (Tyson De Grasse springs to mind).


Hans-Georg Lundahl
Did you use google translate for translating BS (it happens to be correct)? Or are you a Swede?

Social DemocRATS in Sweden have made the for decades ONE ACCESSIBLE school education heavily Darwinist, like Commies whereever they ruled.

Swedish Lutheran former State Church has bowed down to this shit about as much as Patriarchate of Moscow (though Fria Synoden had more liberties than ROCOR up to 1990).

I had to leave my indoctrinated countrymen.

E'ru med i Humanisterna me'?

Yes, I used Google to translate. I'm not afraid of knowledge or technology as I don't have any unsubstantiated beliefs that I'm trying to defend.

Bullshit, if you prefer English.

Just so there's no confusion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I would be afraid to use Google translate if I wanted a correct translation - except for short phrases (but even there!) or for words if I lacked a dictionary to the lang.

Here is why:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Extreme Badness of Google Translate (Copy Pasted both texts)

As for your not trying to defend unsubstantiated beliefs, obviously I disagree.

Whether two passages of the Bible contradict or not is a matter of logic, not of truthfulness about personal matters, so your initial comment looks like you were trying to take attention from good answers (a time since I saw video, but at least some where, perhaps all) to the person giving them.

By disingeniously pretending his being in prison proves more about him than it does.

! Great minds think alike !
Remember: “such attacks usually mean you cannot disprove what he says.” = what I said here …

What utter bullshit.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I am not taking your word for it.

Well, that's a pity. You may have learned something.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You are talking to the guy in the mirror, right?

About "his" attitude to Hovind, right?

What a pity otherwise!

Added :
recall what you said earlier to Starwulf?

"Do you understand that a religious degree is not a science degree?"

I don't think Bible scolars of University of Nottingham agree ...

You do understand what science is, right?

Philosophy is the Arts department, not the Science department.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Ah, you meant NATURAL sciences?

No, he has no degree in that. But a degree in education covers a basic like getting to know the subject you teach in.

High School science for 15 years - implies he read textbooks at least.

I also know he did some maths on them ... parallax angle of alpha Centauri is like an angle in centre of earth prolonged to two points on surface at a distance of 30 meters, he got that one right - unless he took it from me and forgot to give me credits.

In Swedish we call that "naturvetenskap" but do not restrict "vetenskap" to that.

Nor did the scholastics about "scientia".

Besides, the Bible studies at University of Nottingham are not philosophy, they are scientific insofar as heavily involving archaeology and linguistics and so on.

Not saying they are always right, but saying you can have UNIVERSITY degrees in the Bible, in religious studies.


How hard is that to comprehend?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Education is not NATURAL science, but there are usages, even in English where Natural science is not all that is meant by Science.

Here is the accreditation proof for his Seminary, and it seems they would be able to give a PhD in education:

Colorado Department of Higher Education

Patriot Bible University [type :] Seminary Non-Profit [Co-based :] Yes [Division:] DAA
DAA - Degree Authorization Act Officer (more)

Co etc. : Degree Authorization Act

Here is what Colorado has to say on Mills, in part:

Scam schools may claim to be "accredited." Most legitimate schools are approved by a state agency, like the Colorado Commission on Higher Education and/or an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or the Council for Higher Education. Your first step is to ask. "Is the school accredited or state approved?"

Co etc. : Degree/Diploma Mills and Accreditation Mills**

So, to Colorado, an accreditation can be as valid if coming from State – which is what Starwulf claimed – as if coming from Union (USDE)

Btw, were you claiming 4.5 billion years is science? What next? Astrology too?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. It's just incomprehensible babble.

Here's a simple concept to demonstrate how inane your 'argument' is. Let's say I go and get a theology 'doctorate' from a shonky school, and I say you're wrong, then by your logic (argument from authority) you're automatically wrong.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Well no.

I was NOT arguing he must be right because he had credntials. I was arguing you are wrong about him, because he has credentials.

As to the matter at hand, I am saying that whether there is a contradiction or not is a matter of logic - not of credentials like degrees, nor of "discredentials" like doing time.

In that sense the one making any kind of anything like argument from authority is you, not I.

Look, even if we were talking about a fairy tale, like Narnia, whether there is a contradiction in it is a matter of logic.

How do we know what happened in The Last Battle if no children came back from Narnia to live in England again? Seems like a contradiction - but hardly unsolvable. Susan survived the train crash and can have got to know the story via true dreams ... the one solution I can think of as a fan fic writer.

If Kent Hovind offers a solution, the only answer you can give is:

  • solution is illogical and doesn't solve difficulty OR
  • solution is counterfactual, and factually impossible.

First kind of answer requires no credentials from either of you, second type requires you to have credentials more than him.

So, speaking about his credentials, that was just a ruse to steal attention from fact he has good solutions.

'I don't think Bible scolars of University of Nottingham agree ...'

You still haven't retracted your assertion.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I have nothing to retract on it.

It is perfectly admissible, even preferrable, to use "science" in a wider sense than natural sciences only.

Btw, your bad style (under your chosen pseudonym of course) is now available on my blog:

[link to this post to notify codebator of its mirroring our discussion]

Along with better guys like Starwulf7, Otto, me.

As to you, you seem to be a creepy Communist control freak who basically wants FBI to do the work of KGB (I am basing this on your linking to John Bear - and on his credentials) in running down universities recognised and run by anything else than federal government, and so you seem also to be an enemy of state liberties.

You need help.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Well, that ALSO came from a creepy Communist control freak ...

Neither of us have a clue about what you're talking about.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I do, and I think you lie.

You are first of all a Communist-mentality-endowed control freak who imagines any university of any state of US needs to have approval from FEDERAL education department OR (paradoxically) from CHEA which lists 31 Yeshivahs among its members. While, to a normal person, that is not true, and so obviously not.

If CHEA can accredit, so can ACI, both being private. If Federal Department of Education can approve a school, so can Colorado Department if Higher Education, both being departments of edcuation. If one can cite with pride having been to Harvard which unlike Medieval Universities had neither Papal nor Imperial approval (and which has produced a case of academic idiocy like Romanides), so can one cite with pride having been to Patriot Bible School, which also had neither Papal nor Imperial approval, where Kent Hovind did a bad thesis but did very well after it, as far as I have seen from his carreer.

Second, you are also a Communist-mentality-endowed control freak who wants people to "get help" if they disagree with you.

Third, you are a Communist-mentality-endowed Dia-Mat believer who is prepared to call psychiatry a science, pretty obviously, but noy theology.

So, yes, I know what I am talking about, and I don't think you ar honest when you say that you don't.

Here is my criticism of Hovind's dissertation:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Hovind's Dissertation Not as Bad as its Critics on Rational Wiki Think


* John Bear has been FBI expert on "diploma mills"? OK ... CHEA has not recognised ACI ... OK, but they have recognised are have as members 31 yeshivahs ...

Consumers Beware: NONE of these accrediting agencies are recognized as college accreditors in the U.S. by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation or the U.S. Department of Education.

So CHEA has 31 yeshivahs to brag about when it comes not to accredit "fake" schools ... OK ... and the U.S. Department of Education hasn't recognised ACI either ... OK, but fact is recognising schools is a State right, not a federal monopoly depending in that department. There are fifty state departments of education too, I suppose. ACI has schools in 38 states.

List of 2014-2015 Member Institutions(as of 12/01/2014)
Yale University (CT)
Yeshiva and Kolel Bais Medrash Elyon (NY)
... (29 other Yeshivoth)
Yeshivath Zichron Moshe (NY)
York College of Pennsylvania (PA)

** The Colorado Department of Higher Education has a definition of mills which excludes Kent Hovind's seminary - since this seminary is accredited in Colorado. Duh ...

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