Monday, May 27, 2019

David Wolf on Nationalism

David Wolf on Tower of Babel · David Wolf on Nationalism

This video involves two topics:

The Tower Of Babel Story Does Not Justify Nationalism
David Wolf | 23.V.2019

Here is on his take on nationalism.

someone else sums it up:

darek darek
I'm not saying it's intentional but you confuse nationalism with chauvinism.zionism = chauvinism.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Hear, hear

2:24 I think nationalism is good or evil depending on against what one is defending or promoting one's nation, nation state or potential nation state.

It is, among others, these days, a name for opposition to globalism.

Patriotism could potentially be considered in cases like being patriotic over the globalist attitudes of your state or country.

3:18 The idea you describe about loyalty to ... say France in Afghanistan (before France withdrew) ... as "nationalism", I would describe it as misguided patriotism.

The presence was not about French residents in Afghanistan, not about speaking French, not about anything inherently tied to French nationality.

It was to some about loyalty to the decisions of one's president and the efforts of one's army - that is, about patriotism. Except here it was, as I think, a misguided effort, about like Italy's in Ethiopia under Mussolini.

It would have been much better if they had defended rights of Christians and also the liberty to read, print, buy and sell the Bible in Kabul, then I would have supported it.

3:25 "my people is superior over all the peoples of the world" is one very toxic kind of nationalism, not all nationalism there is

And actually, Deutschland über alles doesn't refer to what you think primarily.

It refers to priorising Germany over class loyalty, Germany over Bavarian or Prussian or etc loyalty (in Prussian case, somewhat little rivalry, as between Sardinia and Italy), Germany over purely personal interest like staying at home rather than taking a fight etc.

1841 was not in any way a year of German expansionism, but of defense against French such.

Rhine crisis was the context of Hoffmann von Fallersleben.

4:05 Patriotism and nationalism can both be good and both be evil.

They differ, but not as good and evil.

Note, while they differ, they do not exclude each other.

If you are describing Zionism, these days, it is both nationalist and patriotic and it is both to certain extents that are evil.

12:59 Egypt had recently been transferred from protectorate to province status, Judaea was still a protectorate, i e both were inside the Limes.

And yes, Roman roads were part of that.

However, Chinese or Persian roads weren't.

15:11 In fact, Western nationalism is an heritage from - Roman Patriotism.

There had been an Egyptian nationalism in the times prior to Roman conquest, against the Greek occupant.

It had already ended in a compromise, Greeks in Alexandria (as formerly Hebrews in Goshen) and Egyptians elsewhere.

Also, Pharao was in Alexandria. That is why you had Pharaos like Ptolemy or Cleopatra.

So, Egyptian nationalism was breathing its last when Cleopatra and Mark Anthony were beaten at Actium.

Nationalisms start emerging in response to English expansion (Scotland and France notably), but even more intensely during the Renaissance, first a very Classicising make-over of Latin, then the realisation, "hey, we can make same type of make-over on our language!"

This happens nation after nation. In precisely Christendom, the heirs of Christianised Roman Empire.

And printing spreading these standardisations.

15:16 "Egyptian autonomy"

Egyptians paid taxes before Romans and worshipped Osiris and Isis past Actium to the times of Constantine.

Roman Empire was very much local autonomy and regional autonomy.

It was not an Empire that really threatened Egyptian nationalism and Coptic is still a sacred language.

16:05 sth "that's globalism"

Supra-national does not necessarily mean global.

Roman Empire did not stably conquer Persia, never conquered China or India (except by proxy, Portuguese being Romans and English and French being so too), and expanded to Northern Europe also by proxy (Sweden had a relation to Holy Roman Empire about as Armenia to Roman Empire in more Classic times).

What I have against globalism is diluting Christian Roman Empire with unchristened and un-romanised Indians or Chinese.

What I have against EU is diluting it with modernity.

16:33 Again, while Roman Empire and its heir Austria is potentially global (AEIOU = Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo), they are not factually so. They never had Mao or Nehru seated in their senate.

16:44 "And Mary was able to give birth to Christ"

I'd consider the Hebrew road system between Nazareth and Bethlehem might have been adequate even before Romans.

It might have been improved part of the way, but probably not all of it, since Judaea was not yet a province, just a protectorate.

Same difference as between California and Puerto Rico.

17:22 You know, Aztecs were more imperialists than strictly nationalists and Spanish Imperialism won the upper hand through an alliance with some non-Aztec nationalists.

In fact, when Tenochtitlán was taken, the indigenous anti-Aztec nationalists outnumbered the Spanish imperialists and that is part of the reason why that conquest was so bloody. That city is now called Mexico City.

19:01 US in Taliban connexion?

In fact, considering the alternative in Kabul was Communism, I don't think it was an evil move.

20:23 While not an Islamist, I actually have some admiration and at least respect for Ahmed Yassin.

One of the founders of Hamas.

I have had so, since in prison I read an interview with him. In a Swedish paper, so the interview was translated. I don't think Ahmed Yassin knew Swedish.

"I don't promise paradise to suicide bombers, only God can do that." And he added : "but it's still self defense".

I wondered how bad Israeli politics would have been to provoke that view of things.

Btw, since he was killed, Hamas is less about national self defense and more about globalistic Jihad.

I definitely respect the successor less than him.

I quoted BT from memory, but he actually said it somewhat differently:

"I don't promise paradise to suicide bombers, only God can promise paradise, and I am not sure they go there." And he added : "but it's still self defense".

22:25 "he hated the Jews and backed Hitler"

He thought the Jews a problem in certain contexts.

He also maintained better relations with Jews than Hitler did.

Check about the libel affair raised by Aaron Sapiro and the outcome:

// Ford's 1927 apology was well received. "Four-Fifths of the hundreds of letters addressed to Ford in July 1927 were from Jews, and almost without exception they praised the industrialist."[74] In January 1937, a Ford statement to the Detroit Jewish Chronicle disavowed "any connection whatsoever with the publication in Germany of a book known as the International Jew."[74]

According to Pool and Pool (1978),[75] Ford's retraction and apology (which were written by others) were not even truly signed by him (rather, his signature was forged by Harry Bennett), and Ford never privately recanted his antisemitic views, stating in 1940: "I hope to republish The International Jew again some time." //

Would your professor be indebted to Pool and Pool?

22:23 "believed to the end the ideologies of National Socialism"

All of them?

Prussia being better than Austria in leadership? Germanic Paganism being a spiritual alternative for our times? World War I being lost through treason of politicians? Austria needing an Anschluss? Violence against Jews and Gypsies being OK? Eugenics being OK?

While Baldur von Schirach testified to have become antisemite on reading Ford's book, he also deported 65 000 Jews from Vienna.

I challenge you to find a quote in either Ford or an Austro-Fascist claiming Jews should be deported to camps.

Btw, Austrofascist violence against people who were in fact Jews happened on one occasion in 1935. These Jews had also insulted the memory of Dollfuss, whom the champion of Hitler had murdered in 1934.

"Dollfuss was assassinated on 25 July 1934 by ten Austrian Nazis (Paul Hudl, Franz Holzweber, Otto Planetta and others)[9] of Regiment 89[10] who entered the Chancellery building and shot him in an attempted coup d'état, the July Putsch.[11] Mussolini had no hesitation in attributing the attack to the German dictator: the news reached him at Cesena, where he was examining the plans for a psychiatric hospital. The Duce personally gave the announcement to Dollfuss' widow, who was a guest at his villa in Riccione with her children. He also put at the disposal of Ernst Rüdiger Starhemberg, who spent a holiday in Venice, a plane that allowed the prince to rush back to Vienna and to face the assailants with his militia, with the permission of President Wilhelm Miklas."

His killer Otto Planetta was glorified by the Nazis:

So was his accomplice Franz Holzweber:

His accomplice Hudl was liberated by them and involved in SS:

22:38 If illegally residing workers taking cheap wages compete with your work force and perhaps lower wages, perhaps drive them out of jobs, is it evil to deport them to the border?

I think it is evil under one circumstance : you first ignore them until your employers have exploited them, then deport them just before they acquire rights under your labour legislation - a thing done in France to North Africans.

22:51 What exactly do you consider as the connection between US nationalism and Eugenics?

Btw, as far as I can see, Ford can't have been for Eugenics, or Chesterton would never have mentioned him with respect, and the Austrofascists certainly weren't into it either, since they were a clerically backed Catholic régime.

Eugenics is evil, but why connect it to nationalism in general?

Some nationalisms were tainted by it, that doesn't make them the same.

I tried to double-check my statement:

"3. Jews have a long history of utilizing and explicitly advocating eugenics beginning in the ancient world. Eugenic practices are enshrined in the Talmud, including the injunction for wealthy men to marry their daughters to scholars and the need to scrutinize the family history of prospective spouses for signs of genetic diseases. With the rise of Darwinism, the eugenic practices of traditional Judaism were much discussed as an important ingredient in Jewish success. Many Jewish race scientists in the pre-World War II era both in Europe and in Palestine believed that Jews were a master race and that they had become a master race by following eugenic marriage practices.

4. Eugenic practices have a respected place within contemporary Israel.Yael Hashioni-Dolev shows that Israeli geneticists and the Israeli public strongly favor eugenic practices. Israeli women are “heavily pressured to engage in selection of their embryos, or, in the ultra-Orthodox community, to marry according to ‘genetic compatibility.'” (Prof. John Glad’s website is an excellent source of information on this topic.) This can be seen as an aspect of racial Zionism that dominates contemporary Israeli political culture."

So, while the author defends both Ford and eugenics, he ties Jews to eugenics, but not Ford to it.

And obviously, eugenics are bad, if taken past a certain point, and are arguably one reason why St Paul warned in I Timothy 4:3 of men / heresiarchs forbidding marriage.

23:07 Buck v. Bell indeed did inspire the Nazis as early as February 1934.

(three "ford" of which two Sanford and one Oxford, but not a single Henry Ford)

It also provoked Casti Connubii by Pope Pius XI, and was one reason why Austrofascism opposed the Anschluss.

As for Nazi use, I had previously seen the measure atttributed to February 1934, but it was actually July 1933, made active January 1934. Of all days in July ... July 14.

Here is its infamy, this is part of what Austrofascism opposed:

23:38 While seeing the story in wiki:

I note, the only "ford" in the article is Rexford.

Multiple refusals, actually. Cuba, US, Canada, then refugees are divided between UK, Belgium, France, Netherlands.

"After much negotiation by Schröder, the remaining 619 passengers were also allowed to disembark at Antwerp. 224 (25 per cent) were accepted by France, 214 (23.59 per cent) by Belgium, and 181 (20 per cent) by the Netherlands. The ship returned to Hamburg without any passengers. The following year, after the Battle of France and the Nazi occupations of Belgium, France and the Netherlands in May 1940, all the Jews in those countries were subject to high risk, including the recent refugees."

"Based on the survival rates for Jews in various countries during the war and deportations, historians estimate that 180 of St. Louis refugees in France, 152 of those in Belgium and 60 of those in the Netherlands survived the Holocaust.[19] Including the passengers who landed in England, of the original 936 refugees (one man died during the voyage), roughly 709 survived the war and 227 died.[20][10] Research tracing each passenger has determined that 254 of those who returned to continental Europe were murdered during the Holocaust,"

"Of the 620 St. Louis passengers who returned to continental Europe, we determined that eighty-seven were able to emigrate before Germany invaded western Europe on May 10, 1940. Two hundred fifty-four passengers in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands after that date died during the Holocaust. Most of these people were murdered in the killing centers of Auschwitz and Sobibór; the rest died in internment camps, in hiding or attempting to evade the Nazis. Three hundred sixty-five of the 620 passengers who returned to continental Europe survived the war. Of the 288 passengers sent to Britain, the vast majority were alive at war's end."

I highlight:

"Two hundred fifty-four passengers in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands after that date died during the Holocaust. Most of these people were murdered in the killing centers of Auschwitz and Sobibór; the rest died in internment camps, in hiding or attempting to evade the Nazis."

I'd like to see each of these cases, to know how many can be known to have died.

Meanwhile, cheers for Gustav Schröder!

25:04 You can even add, Pius XII was secretly allied to Truman.

However, he was neglecting some pastoral duties about correcting a certain Adolf ... whom he had probably written off as a lost case.

25:17 is US nationalism behind Buck vs Bell?

I don't see Aubrey E. Strode or Joseph DeJarnette as nationalists.

I see a racist lawyer and a Huguenot / Presbyterian medical doctor.

And a Supreme court judge who was Northern in the War.

And you are also ignoring that Nazis were in fact more globalists than the non-Darwinist (non-social-Darwinist) and nationalist Austrofascists.

Father Ignaz Seipel, SJ (for others, that means he was "societatis Jesu" or a Jesuit), wrote among other works:

Nationalitätenprinzip und Staatsgedanke, 1915
Nation und Staat, 1916,_Ignaz

His view of Jews was to propose they were classified as a "nationale Minderheit" - a minority ethnicity.

That he was a model for a work with the title Die Stadt ohne Juden is because the author, Hugo Bettauer, of Jewish and Evangelisch (Calvinistic) confessions, was lampooning him. His killer, Otto Rothstock, had been in and out of NSDAP, was a dentist, was assigned to mental hospital and came out very quickly. Father Seipel or Austrofascists (future such) were not involved in the killing or any reprisals against Bettauer.

26:26 "look at what the Germans did to the blacks"

Let's put it like this, when it came to cattle-thieves, French were certainly gentler to Algerians than Germans to Hereros.

However, German attitude to Hereros in that war was globalised Darwinism, and Germans also had a clearly different attitude to Askaris.

In both cases there might be a case for saying colonisers were the real cattle-thieves.

When certain corps were gunning down the revolution of Rosa Luxemburg in Berlin, they were singing:

"Der Jäger und Askari:
Heia, heia, safari."

And Askaris were treated better in German army than blacks in British army in World War one.

Leni Riefenstahl was clearly both into documenting Nazi party rallies and into documenting African tribesmen.

It can be added that both Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck (of the Askari-Corps) and Leni Riefenstahl, as well as the Herero butcher Lothar von Trotha were from Protestant parts of Germany, none from the Catholic south.

27:13 Pius IX said of Polish nationalists that they were faulty in forgetting God to get a fatherland back.

Poland and Ireland have stayed national entities separate from UK respectively Prussia, Austria and Russia through nationalism of varying types, sometimes condemned by the Church.

Eamonn DeValéra was some years under ex-communication (he may have thought it was unmerited and therefore invalid) while he fought in the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood).

The Church was frankly encouraging Irish to be patriotic about Great Britain and Ireland (though not back in the time of Pope Innocent XI), and Poles to be loyal subjects to: Kaiser, Kaiser, Czar. Maria Salomea Skłodowska who was a nationalist and honoured the memory of a hung Polish rebel, ended up as the religious indifferentist Marie Curie.

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