Language Related - It's Not Tedious for Me!

Language Related · Who Can Understand Quenya and Sindarin? Anyone who takes the trouble to learn them · Language Related, Again · Language Related - It's Not Tedious for Me!

I

What is the term for someone who speaks Latin as a second language?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-term-for-someone-who-speaks-Latin-as-a-second-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

19.XII.2022

A Latinist. More specially a good Latinist.

A Latinist like me only reads and writes Latin as a second language.

II a

What does research say about language revitalization strategies?
https://www.quora.com/What-does-research-say-about-language-revitalization-strategies/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

19.XII.2022

I would say that language revitalisation strategies have been shown to at least sometimes work, even apart from research.

471 Native Speakers as of the 2021 Census L2 users: 557 in 2011 - that’s the statistics for

Cornish language - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language

which is considered to have gone extinct by the end of the 18th C.

No research in the world can deny that in 2011 there were 471 native speakers of Cornish about a year ago. And I suppose most of those in the 557 L2 users in 2011 are still alive, so, 471 + 557 = 1028.

II b

Can endangered languages be saved?
https://www.quora.com/Can-endangered-languages-be-saved/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

16.XII.2022

Definitely. Under two alternative conditions:

• if the community speaking an endangered language decides to double up on it;
• or if (mostly) related communities that never had or lost the exact language decide to learn it (it could be as simple as teens starting to learn the language of a very old great-grandparent of one of them, or it could involve a related tribe with a related language, learning the endangered one as a version of its own - but it could also involve a group of ethnologists or linguists taking over).

III

If I wanted to study how language develops in children, what courses would I need to take?
https://www.quora.com/If-I-wanted-to-study-how-language-develops-in-children-what-courses-would-I-need-to-take/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

19.XII.2022

I would not know how many courses you needed to take for your level of in-depth.

For my level of argument in denouncing language as an evolving acquisition as impossible, I think even this article is adequate:

Language development: 1-2 years
https://raisingchildren.net.au/toddlers/development/language-development/language-1-2-years

IV

How do we know that languages evolve over time?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-know-that-languages-evolve-over-time/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

19.XII.2022

That totally depends on what you mean by evolve.

If you presume human language as already there, and as, given our generation spans, changing over time, studying human languages already there and changing over time and this happening since lifespans already had 120 as a max, and classify the changes. By the way, “evolution” is a way less good term than fashion.

If French is a different language than Latin, so also the toga has been replaced by modern dress. By the basically same process, namely fashion changing cultural constants and adding up to a very big change over time.

If you imagine Latin changing gradually to French is a kind of progress, what one could more coherently term “evolution” - no, that’s not the case. The additions in vocabulary for modern concepts are per se perfectly possible (but would have been different) if Latin had remained Latin.

Now, if you try to deduce from this that apes communicating in 500 versions of shrieks and squeaks can “evolve” over time to human language, that’s like pretending pepper moths changing colour or beetles losing wings prove that eyes evolved in descendants of totally eye-less creatures. Won’t wash, and I mean totally won’t wash.

V

Why do experts claim C and G were never softened in Latin before E, I or Y and yet this happens in every major Romance language today? Where did French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanian pick up this softening habit if not from Latin itself?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-experts-claim-C-and-G-were-never-softened-in-Latin-before-E-I-or-Y-and-yet-this-happens-in-every-major-Romance-language-today-Where-did-French-Italian-Spanish-Portuguese-and-Romanian-pick-up-this-softening/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Gled Wood

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

17.XII.2022

Experts claim this happened in Latin in c. 3:rd, 4:th, 5:th or 6:th centuries, not sure which, except on Sardinia, which has kept C = K to this day.

That French (except Bourguignon) has uvular R’s doesn’t mean Medieval French hadn’t trilled R’s. It means the change happened (except in Bourgogne) in the 17th C.

So also, in Latin, this change happened after the period considered Classical. This is why the Erasmian pronunciation is preferred for Classic Latin, and the Ecclesiastic pronunciation (where C and SC and G are softened in the positions before E, I, Y, AE and OE) is preferred for Medieval Latin.

As a generality, you are right in calling this a “habit” since it is in fact a kind of fashion. At any time when a fashion changes the language, there is a generation at any given place where it swings both ways, and then it either tips back to the original sound or on the contrary the new sound becomes the sole norm and the old is completely forgotten. This means the correct way to describe a sound change is not just “sound A becomes sound B in situation C in language D” you need to add “in the time span E” to describe it correctly.

And sound changes in the 6th C. AD are not the norm for Classic pronunciation, even Ecclesiastic Latin keeps only a few of them.

VI

Why did the Latin language lose almost all of its case systems and declensions and many of its inflections when it developed into the modern Romance languages Italian, French, Romanian, Portuguese, Spanish, etc?
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-Latin-language-lose-almost-all-of-its-case-systems-and-declensions-and-many-of-its-inflections-when-it-developed-into-the-modern-Romance-languages-Italian-French-Romanian-Portuguese-Spanish-etc/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Answer requested by

Gled Wood

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

17.XII.2022

I’ll give you a paradigm for two Latin nouns, first and second declinsions. First, Classic pronunciation. Second how this pronunciation changed.

rosa et tumulus (N sg)
rosae et tumuli (G sg)
rosae et tumulo (D sg)
rosam et tumulum (Acc sg)
rosa et tumule (V sg)
rosa et tumulo (Abl sg)

rosae et tumuli (NV pl)
rosarum et tumulorum (G pl)
rosis et tumulis (DAbl pl)
rosas et tumulos (Acc pl)

Keep in mind, some of the endings have long and some have short vowels. I am not marking them out, just saying, and this makes a difference for the sound development. Here is how this would have looked (leaving out changes in stem) by the 6th C at the latest:

*rosa e tumolos (N sg)
*rose e tumole (G sg)
*rose e tumolo (D sg)
*rosa e tumolo (Acc sg)
*rosa e tumole (V sg)
*rosa e tumolo (Abl sg)

*rose e tumole (NV pl)
*rosaro e tumoloro (G pl)
*roses e tumoles (DAbl pl)
*rosas e tumolos (Acc pl)

Here, too many endings look too much like each other.

The real system by 6th C had simplified (with regional variations) to sth like this, and R = N + V, O = all the rest:

rosa e tumolos (R sg)
rosa e tumolo (O sg)

rose e tumoli (R pl)
rosas e tumolos (O pl).

A form like “rosaro” would still have been heard, while reading old texts, like the Bible, but it didn’t belong into the spoken norm any more. There was in fact a diglossia, more severe than in Greek, which only lost the dative. This diglossia then led to a language divorce.

VII

What is the locative case in Latin?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-locative-case-in-Latin/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

17.XII.2022

Cities and small islands and the words “domus” and “rus” have some extra cases without preposition that correspond to preposition uses with other words. All forms coincide with cases from normal declinsions, and only the middle one isn’t formally identic to one.

Accusative of place

To Rhodes, Rome, Carthage, Corinth, the country-side and home:

Rhodum, Romam, Carthaginem, Corinthos, rus, domum (all accusatives).

Locative

On Rhodes, in Rome, Carthage, Corinth, the country-side and at home:

Rhodi, Romae, Carthagini, Corinthis, ruri, domi (in singular all end in -I, genitive for I and II, Dative for III, also Dative or Ablative for plurals).

Ablative of place

From Rhodes, Rome, Carthage, Corinth, the contry-side and home:

Rhodo, Roma, Carthagine, Corinthis, rure, domo (all ablatives, Corinthis coincides with locative).

____

There is also another ablative of place, with adjectives toto (in all of) summo (in the upper part of) imo (in the lower part of). Tota urbe = in all of the city. Summo colle = on the top of the hill (or perhaps colli).

VIII

How do bilinguals cognitively process language?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-bilinguals-cognitively-process-language/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

17.XII.2022

We switch from thinking in one language to thinking in another.

Glitches happen, like

• when multitasking on the internet, if I am tired and write an essay in French but look up a source in English, it can happen for a few seconds I continue the essay in English before switching back to French.
• Or I can have forgotten a word in precisely the language I’m using and remember it in one I am not supposed to use … in a conversation that means “how do you say it in English? I mean ‘randonné’ if you know French” (unlikely I would forget words like walk or stroll in English, but it’s an example) and in writing, it can mean looking a word up on wikipedia the language I remember and then switch article language to the one I am writing in.

IX

How do you develop bilingualism in related languages?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-develop-bilingualism-in-related-languages/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

19.XII.2022

For my own part, it’s a bit like treating them like dialects of the same language.

Say a man from US and a man from UK switch houses for a year. Let’s say back 100 years ago, before films and TV and internet taught people about people across the Atlantic.

1. The man from US will need to deal with differences in pronunciation like buhh-uh for butter or generally -uh for -er. The man from UK will need to deal with differences in pronunciation like budder for butter and generally -er (really pronouncing the r) for -uh.
2. The man from UK will need to learn that a “trunk” is not just the lower part of a tree or the prolongated nose of an elephant, but also the back of a car. The man from US will need to learn that “trunk” is NOT the back of a car, just the other things. But that a “boot” is not just on the foot but also at the back of a car.
3. The man from US will learn that a “sidewalk” is a “pavement” and that “crumpets” are nearly the same as (British) “muffins” … the man from UK that “muffins” are nearly the same as US “crumpets” and “pavements” are called “sidewalks” …
4. lots of other stuff, there will be no difference.

So, we deal with language items (like words) that are 1) nearly identic except for pronunciation subtleties, 2) same or near same word means different things, 3) other words for same things, and 4) lots more totally identic.

What would be different when going between English and German? First of all, most of category 4 will instead be category 1. Second, there will be lots more of categories 2 and 3.

Using category 1 as a guide can sometimes lead to errors. “Fläder” in Swedish should be “Flieder” in German. But in Sweden we use “fläder” to make a sirup, enjoyed diluted with water. In German “Flieder” is totally useless for that. You see, “Flieder” is what English call “lilacs” and Swedes “syrén” - while “fläder” is what English call “(black) elderberry” and Germans call “(schwarzer) Hollunder” …

X

How does a speaker of a tonal language know which tone to use when there are multiple options?
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-speaker-of-a-tonal-language-know-which-tone-to-use-when-there-are-multiple-options/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I know more than one Latin and Germanic language.

19.XII.2022

Because the tone is part of the phonetic makeup of the word.

Confusing “anden” (fairly equal tone) meaning “the spirit” with “anden” (nearly no stress on the second syllable) meaning “the duck” doesn’t happen to Swedes.

And yes, I gave stress pattern, but for the former, the standard dialect has falling major second within the first syllable and rising minor third to last, and for the latter, the fall is a minor third to the last syllable.

XI

If Indo-European migration theory is false, how does Indo-European or PIE language family exist?
https://www.quora.com/If-Indo-European-migration-theory-is-false-how-does-Indo-European-or-PIE-language-family-exist/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

17.XII.2022

There are three models I can think of, perhaps a fourth, why the IE language group exists.

1. Speakers of PIE lived in Yamna (had the Yamnaya culture) and migrated.
2. Speakers of PIE lived in Anatolia and migrated.
3. Speakers of different languages lived in Anatolia or around the Aegean, and they influenced each other and migrated.

Here is a very far stretch for a fourth - there was a group of peoples sharing a common religion, and a very early IE version, perhaps less complete than Pokorny, was a help language for their rites and cultic practises.

There is no such thing (on any view) as a “PIE language family” but Proto-Indo-European was according to the first two models I mentioned the mother language of the languages in the family. Proto-Indo-European is abbreviated PIE.

XII a

What is the difference between Slavic and non-Slavic peoples?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Slavic-and-non-Slavic-peoples/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

16.XII.2022

That Slavic peoples speak a Slavic language and non-Slavic peoples speak a non-Slavic one.

What else?

Bulgarians are a Slavic and Romanians are a non-Slavic people in the same region.

Lausitz-Sorbs are a Slavic and Saxon Germans a non-Slavic people in the same region.

Do you think, apart from language, that Bulgarians and Lausitz-Sorbs have more in common with each other than with the region they live in? Think again!

XII b

What is the difference between Slavic and Slavic-speaking peoples?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Slavic-and-Slavic-speaking-peoples/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

16.XII.2022

The same as between Germanic and Germanic-speaking peoples.

The difference between a classification of a language in a language group, and the peoples that speak one language so classified.

XIII

Are there any practical benefits to revived languages other than cultural preservation?
https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-practical-benefits-to-revived-languages-other-than-cultural-preservation/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

amateur linguist

20.XII.2022

Cultural preservation (other things being equal, which is not always the case) is a benefit.

XIV

What is an example of leu meaning 'coin' in Latin?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-example-of-leu-meaning-coin-in-Latin/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

20.XII.2022

None whatsoever.

Romanian coin leu, plural lei, is from Latin leo meaning lion.

XV

Was French ever spoken in ancient Gaul? If so, when and why did French replace Latin as a common tongue among people across Gaul?
https://www.quora.com/Was-French-ever-spoken-in-ancient-Gaul-If-so-when-and-why-did-French-replace-Latin-as-a-common-tongue-among-people-across-Gaul/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-2

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Studied Latin (language) at Lund University

20.XII.2022

French was never ever spoken in ancient Gaul.

The main languages prior to Julius Caesar were Gaulish and Latin.

French is a remake of Latin, or more precisely a very huge accumulation of smaller remakes.

It involves a few words from Gaulish, but actually fewer than from Germanic languages, like Frankish or Burgundian. A French bird has a “bec fin” (meaning “thin beak”) because of Gaulish - in Latin he had a “rostrum exiguum” - however the French bird himself (“oiseau”) is not Gaulish, but a Latin “avis” with diminution by the diminutive “avicellus.”

EDIT : I forgot “when” - in fact, up to 800, Latin remained the spelling, even if the remakes were already adding up in the direction of French, but when Alcuin introduced a “more correct” pronunciation of Latin to the clergy (meaning it was more understood in England, Germany and Italy), it became obvious that Latin with the new-old pronunciation (introduced as foreign language among Anglo-Saxons like Alcuin a few centuries earlier and from Italy, so with a few remakes less, but new in France) was not comprehensible to normal people.

Hence in 813 priests were required to add a sermon basically translating the Gospel, either to French (or the “sermo romanus rusticus”) or low German, depending on audience, and preparations for such sermons became more and more like a correct spelling of the language as actually spoken. A few decades later, a poem about St. Eulalia of Merida was written in this spelling that shows better than Latin texts prior to 800, how people normally spoke outside the Church.

XVI

How does a speaker of a tonal language know which tone to use when there are multiple options?
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-speaker-of-a-tonal-language-know-which-tone-to-use-when-there-are-multiple-options/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I know more than one Latin and Germanic language.

19.XII.2022

Because the tone is part of the phonetic makeup of the word.

Confusing “anden” (fairly equal tone) meaning “the spirit” with “anden” (nearly no stress on the second syllable) meaning “the duck” doesn’t happen to Swedes.

And yes, I gave stress pattern, but for the former, the standard dialect has falling major second within the first syllable and rising minor third to last, and for the latter, the fall is a minor third to the last syllable.

XVII

Why did the Achaemenid Persians use Aramaic as their official language instead of Old Persian or Middle Persian? What was it like for a commoner to learn Aramaic?
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-Achaemenid-Persians-use-Aramaic-as-their-official-language-instead-of-Old-Persian-or-Middle-Persian-What-was-it-like-for-a-commoner-to-learn-Aramaic/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

20.XII.2022

Probably for exactly the same reason that Lithuanian Grand Duchy had Old Slavonic or Old Church Slavonic as their official language instead of Lithuanian.

In both cases, the conquered areas had a wider and older connexion to the language chosen than to the native language of the conqueror.

As easy as that.

Most commoners would in this area already have known Aramaic.