Mariology

Wretched - 25 (such) "reasons Peter was not the first Pope" · Mariology · Michael Lofton Qualifies Protestantism as Self-Contradictory - a Qualified Agreement · More on Papacy

Partly good, not quite cutting edge ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp8CEjyPvfU

3:32 Did you just say that antipopes Ratzinger and Bergoglio rejected the use of co-redemptrix?

"Mostly because it causes confusion"?

Seriously, when you see a man like "Wretched" (the guy from Reformation Day, remember?) go to the Bible, shall they reject the Bible next?

Wait a minute, they already did ... (Wojtyla / Ratzinger early 90's and Bergoglio in the 2014 "magic wand" remark).

The non-Popes have asked people not to use it ...

3:57 Actually, She cooperated on Calvary too.

She repeated the role of Abraham in relation to Isaac.

What Christ won ex merito de condigno, She won ex merito de congruo.

With Christ's death, God the Father owed Him to offer us salvation and also resurrection from the dead.

With Her union hereto, God would have been in his rights but churlish not to offer us salvation.

6:17 While it may not be dogma, Mediatrix Omnium Gratiarum is also good Catholic doctrine.

Two people prayed by the sides of Jesus. For robbers on crosses. The Blessed Virgin prayed on the side where St. Dismas was.

zubical swartz

where do you dig up this heretical nonsense? certainly not the scriptures

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@zubical swartz Tradition.

@zubical swartz Mediatrix omnium gratiarum is not just RC tradition (more in Poland than the US, apparently), but it is also EO tradition, see "the archbishop's prayer school" by I think Anthony Bloom.

@zubical swartz I think you can look it up in Glories of Mary, where St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori goes into Scriptural detail with the close readings required to tease out the doctrine.

zubical swartz

@Hans-Georg Lundahl none of this rubbish is in the scriptures which is the only source with any authority

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@zubical swartz Oh, you are a Protestant heretic!

You just contradicted your own "only" authority. How's that?

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
[2 Thessalonians 2:14]

She mediated Christ's very presence on Earth, the first public miracle, and became mother to the sole remaining disciple under the Cross, and She's supposed not to ask for the graces we receive by Her prayers?

Come on, show me one Church with Apostolic succession that teaches that! If you can't, it's dead certain that what you believe is against the traditions that St. Paul taught.

zubical swartz

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Christ and Christ alone is the saviour. Mary had nothing to do with it. She is fully human and therefore needs a saviour like all humans. "....when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." hebrews ch1 vs 3b . " For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1Tim 2:5

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@zubical swartz "Christ and Christ alone is the saviour. Mary had nothing to do with it."

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, and that preacheth peace: of him that sheweth forth good, that preacheth salvation, that saith to Sion: Thy God shall reign!
[Isaias (Isaiah) 52:7]

So, She preached salvation.

You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.
[John 4:22]

So, the Jews brought forth salvation. Is it because they brought forth Jesus? She did that more directly than anyone else in all of Judah.

You are wrong.

"She is fully human and therefore needs a saviour like all humans."

Including Her Son? Including Adam and Eve before they sinned?

She indeed in a very true sense needed a saviour:

But my soul shall rejoice in the Lord; and shall be delighted in his salvation.
[Psalms 34:9]

I think She kind of quoted that ... and the very next mention of salvation in the Bible is:

But the salvation of the just is from the Lord, and he is their protector in the time of trouble.
[Psalms 36:39]

And this means, needing salvation does not imply necessarily being or even having been a sinner. The placing seems to imply this pertains to Her.

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
[James 5:16]

If She is just, Her prayer availeth much.

Your quotes from Hebrews and First Timothy are basically granted - and that Mediator came through Her.

Here is the Catholic translation of Hebrews 1:3 - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

See what two words are in your Bible and not in mine?

@zubical swartz Plus you forgot to mention even one Church with Apostolic Succession that agrees with you.

@zubical swartz The probable reason for "by himself" (in your version of Heb 3:1) is the medium form in Greek:

καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος

But while the medium in some cases means "by himself" it can also mean "taking himself a high interest in it" or "for himself" (like for His glory or for His Joy).

The medium cannot be used to exclude people collaborating with Him.

8:38 There are no 1260 years in the Bible anywhere. I mean, any stretch of years longer than that (like between Adam's creation and Abraham's birth) will contain several potential stretches this length.

But Apocalypse 12 is concerned with 1260 days.

The answer (whether rightly applied or not, I'm not denying it) would be with William Tapley, who considers this as meaning Mary is with the Church that flees into the wilderness.

She had no birthpangs in Bethlehem, but She kind of has when praying for the Church.

peter zinya

made some comments which extended themselves to a debate, here:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Accusers of the Church of Christ
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2023/01/accusers-of-church-of-christ.html

11:16 In a sense, the Church can be said to "birth" the Messiah, namely under the appearances of bread and wine ... however, that's arguably not what the Protestant had in mind.

12:21 In fact, in Genesis 3:15, the Hebrew (with Latin and I presume LXX translations) says "enmities" = Hebrew phraseology or idiom for "perfect enmity" ...

And it is echoed in Luke 1:28 where She (even before being pregnant) is praised for total victory.

blessed art thou among women.

In verse 42, the parallel extends to second part of the Genesis verse.

But the three women of which the Bible uses any words like these are Jael, Judith and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

So, in verse 29 She might have wondered who was Sisera or Holophernes to Her, and in verse 42 She gets the answer, that the Serpent was Sisera and Holophernes to Her and Her Seed.

Meaning, obviously, also, Her sinlessness. You are neither a perfect enemy nor totally victorious over Satan as long as you sin, and neither am I. Mrs Elisabeth Cohen told Her, that She was. And therefore never had.

12:37 Ooooooooops!

The Church is the true Israel.

Too bad if you take a man for "pope" who's making himself harlot to Judaism, but the Church is the true Israel.

Deuteronomy 28 compares to Matthew 28. The covenant on Sinai was a conditional one, and promises a final one, which is given in Matthew 28.

Deuteronomy 28:1 - 14 sketches out the blessings of the Church, which are bestowed on, not the entirety of the Jewish nation, as nation, but the specific part that adhered to the King of the Jews ... in Matthew 28:16 - 20.

Again, Isaiah 11 and its greater Israel were made realities in the First Century. Judah and Ephraim are reconciled in the first two local Churches of the Church, Jerusalem and Samariah. And its Israelites are (apart from the ones who became Muslims) still Christians. They are called Palestinians.

The fact of the matter is, his bad theology doesn't fully take into account what his perfectly correct equation implies - that you usually become a member of the Church on day 8 counting from your birth and that the Chutch is a population, not a club.

12:45 "God's people aren't always the Church"

FP .... just FP.

Why, if so, is Catholic theology distinguishing between "the Jewish Church" (from Moses to Kaiaphas) and "the Synagogue" (meaning the ones who reject Christ?

Why, if so, was the last High Priest of the Jewish Church named like the first Pope of the Christian or Catholic Church, Cephas = Caiaphas?

17:35 "not throughout the entire Empire"

Where did St. Ignatius come to Rome from? 36° 12′ 17″ North, 36° 10′ 54″ East
Where is Pliny the Younger carrying out executions? 45° 45′ 28″ North, 4° 49′ 56″ East

Both are somewhat far from 41° 53′ 19″ North, 12° 29′ 12″ East.

You are obviously right about there being no 1260 either days or years in the Roman persecution, it can only refer to Childhood narratives and to the final persecution before Armageddon.

17:44 Yeah, right ... finding "God's people" in a novel pretending to documentary status called "Trail of Blood"

18:19 Very obviously he's talking about James Milton Carroll with friends.

No, he's not making it up, James Milton Carroll was, when he wrote The Trail of Blood.

18:27 "this is just Kent Hovind level of reasoning here"

That's misrespresenting Kent Hovind. He's often wrong, even usually when talking outside of subjects like Creationism, but even when he's wrong, he's not making it up.

If Kent Hovind says the Catholic Church founded Islam, that's not because Kent Hovind made it up, but because he trusts Alberto Rivera on a secret briefing he had from Cardinal Bea.

Misplaced trust, either to Alberto Rivera, or by him (supposing Agostina Bea had said that in a secret briefing, why would Alberto trust Bea was really in the know rather than simply pretending to be privy to "confidential" information?). But still trust and not own invention on Mr. Hovind's part.

And when Hovind pretended the wine in Cana or at the Last Supper was unfermented grape juice, that's also from way earlier bad sources in those "congregations" and so, once again, not Hovind's own invention.

21:03 I'll quiz you a bit about your fellow "Novus Ordos" in this context.

Aren't there some of them who deny Heaven is an actual place?

If Heaven is not a place, Christ's risen body cannot be "there" nor can the Blessed Virgin's.

So, John Becknell denied that heaven is a place, he referred to the Baltimore Catechism, which did not rule out it is a place, and John Becknell denied that heaven is a specific place. Thereby undercutting that Our Lord and Our Lady are there.

Are you with John Becknell or with me? Is heaven a specific place, so Our Lord and Our Lady can be there, or is it not?

[EXTRO / OUTRO] I actually, for once, gave you a thumbs down, not for the main issue, but for bungling side issue. After side issue.

See previous comments.