Dialogue with jp byrne

Dialogue with jp byrne · Also Under Same Video

Does History Disprove Protestantism? w/ Ethan Dolan
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUIZkMS-t4E

jp byrne

A guy laughing at protestants but doesn't use even one scripture to back his beliefs the reason being because there is none he can use..God warned of false teachers like this

Hans-Georg Lundahl

For the thing given about Huldrich Zwingli, there is John chapter 3.

The problem with giving it is, people agreeing with Zwingli are into pretending "that's not what it means" and so, it's a bit more difficult to dismiss restatement after restatement as that when people in the Church Christ founded and believing what Christ taught reformulate it to suit the occasions.

Res Vero

We have all the scriptures, prot!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Res Vero I think jp byrne meant "one proof text in Scripture for the specific point" - I gave one.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl I cannot understand you're point in your message iv read it over and over and still don't understand..Can you explain simpler and which verses in john3 you are speaking of..

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Jesus didn't start the Catholic Church either as it goes contrary to all biblical teachings ..I was Catholic for 30 plus year then I decided to read the bible and it was opposite of what I was believing at the time

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne It is precisely because you blind yourself to what verse 5 implies that consensus of the Church Fathers in interpretation is a necessary corrective.

If you pretend you have the real Church of Christ on your side, show its consensus on this point and in rejecting Catholicism, century by century. Not just one item in the NT, and one pastor more than 1000 years distant from it, but one for each century.

"then I decided to read the bible and it was opposite of what I was believing at the time"

What opposites did you find?

If you had been taught you needn't believe in a literal Adam and Eve by someone like Sébastien Antoni, supposed Assumptionist, that is not Catholicism.

To me, both you and he have defected from the Catholic faith, and despite his being in apparent good standing, his defection is closer to full fledged apostasy.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl answer me a question. Can a baby have faith in God or proclaim it has faith ? ..I am part of a Christian church based on the church of acts ..There is untold differences..please show me just one scripture in the entire bible of anyone praying to anyone in heaven but God just one scripture please

@Hans-Georg Lundahl when all the abuse allegations came out I left the church can you honestly believe if Jesus was on earth in the flesh at the time these allegations were made that he would say the Catholic Church is the one true church?? I kept relationship with God through prayer then found the church I'm with now thank God

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne A baby can have faith as a pure gift from God.

It's for the sponsors to express it before the Church.

"I am part of a Christian church based on the church of acts"

Is it in historic continuity with it?

Res Vero

@jp byrne
I was prot then I started reading the Bible. That is when I discovered that Catholicism is true and prots follow 500 year old man made doctrines

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "please show me just one scripture in the entire bible of anyone praying to anyone in heaven but God just one scripture please"

A pharisee who had been rich (we know he was a pharisee, because it is said of his brothers, they had Moses and the Prophets and refuse to believe them), tried to pray to Abraham, while Abraham's bosom was not yet in heaven.

This was refused for two different reasons - neither of which was Abraham couldn't have granted it under other circumstances.

a) the rich man was already in Hell - he could not be reached by that act of mercy
b) his brothers were already hardened sinners - they also could not be reached.

There was no question of Abraham not being able to pray for or even grant by ordering (on God's behalf) something for a soul in purgatory or for a living person who was yet going to get saved.

"when all the abuse allegations came out I left the church"

Were there any about SSPX? About Sedevacantists? About Pope Michael?

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl show me scripture please that shows God gives gift of faith to baby ..Will wait for you to show scripture of anyone praying to anyone but God thanks

jp byrne

@Res Vero if an unbeliever asked you how to be saved by God what would you tell them please

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl what bible do you use as nowhere iv ever seen the words tried to pray to abraham.please which version bible do you use

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl I believe you tried to do as the Catholic Church has done and change scripture..Being part of a named church can't save you.Only through faith in Jesus being born again and repentance of sin and living under the grace of God can one be saved

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "Being part of a named church can't save you."

Could one be saved by being part of the Church of Jerusalem, on Pentecost day?

I don't mean necessarily, as Ananias and Sapphira may have been damned to Hell, but like being part of the Church visible on Pentecost as opposed to siding with the Temple or the Pharisees was required?

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl again it comes down to faith in Jesus that is scriptural ..You can attend a church but be someone living in sin and going against your faith .that was me till I became truly saved.I believed because I was Catholic at the time I was safe while at same time addicted to weed ,gambling and more.. now I have been shown the error of my ways and live under Gods grace.iv given up the things of my past but as a fallen human still sin but know I am under Gods grace and continue to try become more faithful Christian.. How would you tell someone to be saved if they asked

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "You can attend a church but be someone living in sin and going against your faith"

Which will not save.

"while at same time addicted to weed ,gambling and more"

I am not sure addictions are the correct term.

Were your sums in gambling less or more than a normal day's wage?

Was your weed equivalent to slightly tipsy or to drunk?

"How would you tell someone to be saved if they asked"

If already baptised and believing and not fully living their baptism: a) make an examination of conscience, asking for God's grace to see what sins you need to repent of
b) be sure to include all mortal sins, and also not to condemn yourself for venial sins
c) go to Confession if you have a priest in communion with Pope Michael, otherwise make an act of perfect contrition, and a resolution to sin no more.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl my drug taking was a lot as was gambling and I can only thank Jesus for changing my life 180 degrees ..Now you say how to be saved but don't make one mention of Jesus ?? Plus you say we must confess to a priest .Why would you not confess to God ? Why no mention of Jesus in regards salvation

Res Vero

@jp byrne
I would say as our first Pope, Peter, said, repent and be Baptized.

jp byrne

@Res Vero Peter also said nor is there salvation in any other for there is no other name given among men under the heavens by which you will be saved ..Jesus isvour lord and savior

Res Vero

@jp byrne
Yep, I know. It's in the catechism.

Jesus also said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood there is no life in you. Do you think you know more then Jesus?

jp byrne

@Res Vero your belief system is in man sadly ..The truth is most catholics believe in salvation by works and through the church when the bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Hence why Jesus left the comforts of heaven became flesh and died for our sins

jp byrne

@Res Vero he also said do this in remembrance of me

@Res Vero I know what the bible says as best I can and again it was you not me that tried to change scripture

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "my drug taking was a lot as was gambling"

Not sure if you mean "often" or "high doses each time" ... if you gamble about 50 cents every day, that's not a mortal sin, if you gamble about 78,89 € or at least 118,34 €, that's arguably mortal, at least in regards as to what each is putting in.

Either way, fine you are off that.

"Plus you say we must confess to a priest ."

If one is available.

"Why would you not confess to God ?"

One confesses to God while confessing to a priest, if one doesn't intend that, one would confess to the priest in vain.

One confesses to the priest so one can hear God tell one, you are forgiven, without an interior locution being suspect of self deception.

"Why no mention of Jesus in regards salvation"

But I did : Jesus is the High Priest, and any validly ordained Catholic priest with valid faculties gives His absolution, since acting in His name.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl where do you get the different levels of sin in regards the figures of gambling..You see again this is all made up.Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the holy spirit again that's from scripture. Can you show me where you quote from scripture please..When you pray do you not believe God hears your prayer...No priest can be a substitute for Jesus as they also are sinners or do you believe priests are without sin ?

Res Vero

@jp byrne
As James said when he was inspired by God to right James "faith without works is dead"

Works don't save you, but if you don't obey and follow Christ in works Jesus will tell you "depart from me, I never new you"

jp byrne

@Res Vero works is not a way of salvation it is a result of it .when you are saved you are under grace and if you are born again and the holy spirit in you the fruits of the spirit will come through and it is only natural to do good

@Res Vero but to basically put a priest as being God like is unbelievable..

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "different levels of sin in regards the figures of gambling"

Same as for stealing or for keeping a bank note found on the ground.

Venial sin, if you can afford not having it, or no sin at all = it is lower than a day's wage.

Mortal sin, what you take away from someone else is higher than a day's wage.

That's what my father confessor and catechist taught me about the matter of keeping bills.

The lower sum I gave is the so called SMIC, the legal minimum wage here in France. The higher is 1.5 times the SMIC as being a more typical day's wage.

"Jesus said the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the holy spirit again that's from scripture."

I didn't say mortal sins are unforgivable. I said that they are beyond For in many things we all offend. (James 3:2)

Some also reference He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. (1 John 5:16) And for some text versions: (1 John 5:17) says πᾶσα ἀδικία ἁμαρτία ἐστίν, καὶ ἔστιν ἁμαρτία οὐ πρὸς θάνατον.

"There is a sin not to death."

"When you pray do you not believe God hears your prayer"

Yes, when I pray to be forgiven, I hope God will forgive me in the manner He has ordained - which involves confessing to a priest.

"No priest can be a substitute for Jesus as they also are sinners or do you believe priests are without sin ?"

I believe the one they represent is without sin. They can represent him, even if they have sins. Secular rulers also represent Him, in another way, and they also do not automatically lose power every time they commit a mortal sin. You have to obey a police man directing the traffic, even if he cheated on his wife (which is a mortal sin) - because the policeman, and the King or President he represents, too, even so, represents God, in accordance with Romans 13.

Same with the ones who represent Him in the Church.

Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

He most specifically didn't state that this only works whenever the apostle, or successor of such, himself is right with God.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl religion is man's attempt to reach God christianity is God's attempt to reach man..Catholicism is like religion following nothing but rules its like being on a treadmill constantly working and going nowhere and even after you pass the lies of purgatory existing ..basically saying Jesuss death on cross wasn't enough .remember when we accept Jesus through faith he imputes his righteousness to us meaning we are under Gods grace .2cor5:21 he made him sin who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him 🙏 isaiah61:10 I will greatly exhault the lord for he hath clothed me with the garment of salvation and covered me in the robe of righteousness....The bible tells us that our righteousness is like filthy rags to God..Trust in Jesus and see your life changed

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne Look here. I meet challenge after challenge you gave me.
You respond to no challenge of mine.

Perhaps you think your duty to convert me to what you call Christianity is more important than being polite and exonerates you from normal rules of debate?

Because, that's how you act.

@jp byrne "Trust in Jesus and see your life changed"

I am not into gambling or drug abuse.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl you changed scripture about abraham to try peove about praying which is serious offence In bible.You still haven't shown me any scripture to dhow your man made rules.You put a priest equal with Jesus and never said you need Jesus for salvation..I have shown you scriptures for everything iv said and you try say you meet challenge after challenge ???

@Hans-Georg Lundahl I'm not into drug abuse or gambling either that was in my past and as scripture aayßnce we confess our sins God forgives our sins and says as far as east is from west he removes our sins ..in other words he oesnt remind us of them they are gone unlike Catholicism

@Hans-Georg Lundahl how was I not polite

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "you changed scripture about abraham to try peove about praying which is serious offence In bible."

Unlike you, I give references, which you can pretend don't exist, because the key word you ask for is not verbatim in them.

I didn't say the Gospel Luke 16 verbatim involved the pharisee "praying" but it is hard to see how it is not equivalent to how one prays to saints.

Abraham was asked for favours. He was not even asked to pray for them, so God could grant them, he was asked to basically do it.

The one reason Abraham gives why he can't doesn't debunk praying to the saints, it only debunks praying for that damned and formerly rich pharisee.

"You still haven't shown me any scripture to dhow your man made rules."

The rules about where venial sin ends and mortal sin begins in relation to the other's property are certainly not stated directly in Scripture.

They are rules of the Church, and the Church was entrusted with the power to bind and loose.

"You put a priest equal with Jesus"

Not exactly "equal" - and especially not more than Jesus said Himself.

"and never said you need Jesus for salvation.."

How is needing His priests not needing Him?

"I have shown you scriptures for everything iv said"

Not when challenged.

"and you try say you meet challenge after challenge ???"

Yes.

"I'm not into drug abuse or gambling either that was in my past"

I don't have the kind of present that corresponds to your past.

"as scripture aayßnce we confess our sins God forgives our sins and says as far as east is from west he removes our sins"

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our iniquities from us.

King David was before the era of confession.

"..in other words he oesnt remind us of them they are gone unlike Catholicism"

In Catholicism, He blots them out when we get an absolution.

"how was I not polite"

By taking the tone of someone trying to desperately make me see a point in a preachy way, in such a way as to avoid the normal duties in a debate. Duties of courtesy.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl but you used the word pray ..Also it took place in sheol its completely different to someone praying to someone in heaven ,I simply asked to show me a scripture of someone praying to someone in heaven which I am still waiting for please..

@Hans-Georg Lundahl the church doesn't have authority to change or add laws .the Catholic Church unfortunately changed the second commandment hence how the churches have statues in most of them ..

@Hans-Georg Lundahl when you say you confess your sins to a priest so you can hear God's voice saying you are forgiven is strong statement.God works through people yes and in regards people whom have done works for God all the glory goes to God

@Hans-Georg Lundahl 1john1:7 if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus christ cleanseth us from all sin but if we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us .but if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanseth us from all unrighteousness....God still forgives us once we are sincere and faithful

@Hans-Georg Lundahl you have to ask questions to debate .That's what iv done and answered yours

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "If you pretend you have the real Church of Christ on your side, show its consensus on this point and in rejecting Catholicism, century by century. Not just one item in the NT, and one pastor more than 1000 years distant from it, but one for each century."
Not answered.
"Is [your Church based on the Church of Acts] in historic continuity with it?"
Not answered.
"Were there any [abuse allegations] about SSPX? About Sedevacantists? About Pope Michael?"
Not answered.
"Could one be saved by being part of the Church of Jerusalem, on Pentecost day? ... like being part of the Church visible on Pentecost as opposed to siding with the Temple or the Pharisees was required?"
Not answered.

I answered on why priests (as successors of apostles) absolve, and why them having sins is immaterial to this. This answer was not answered, before, you changed the subject.

Now, a few points you try to answer. Thanks.

"but you used the word pray"

So did you about "praying to saints"

"Also it took place in sheol its completely different to someone praying to someone in heaven"

In both cases its praying to someone in Abraham's bosom.

"the church doesn't have authority to change or add laws"

She has the authority to add and to change minor laws.

"the Catholic Church unfortunately changed the second commandment"

Rather, we divide the commandments so verses 2 to 6 belong to the first. "Bow down to them" refers to strange gods as much as to graven images - it is about bowing down to images of nature given false statute of godhood.

"when you say you confess your sins to a priest so you can hear God's voice saying you are forgiven is strong statement."

Indeed. It's what Jesus stated (basically) in John 20, which I quoted. When the apostle (or priest in his succession) absolves, God absolves.

"God works through people yes and in regards people whom have done works for God all the glory goes to God"

If you recall confessing from your Catholic days, the priest doesn't say "glory to Father Brown" and you answer "in aeternum amen" but "glory to God" and you answer "in aeternum amen" ...

"but if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanseth us from all unrighteousness"

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

Neither of our Bibles adds "to God alone" and Gospel of John chapter 20, verses 21 to 23 says otherwise.

"God still forgives us once we are sincere and faithful"

And He has (ordinarily) placed a priest to make sure we are so. To preserve us from traps of self deception.

"That's what iv done and answered yours"

Now you have answered some.

jp byrne

@Hans-Georg Lundahl the church i am part of is simple.We go by the instructons and word of the bible .Jesus is our lord and savior and that he is our one and only intercessor with the father ..If we pray we pray to noone else and when we become born again and receive the holy spirit we become transformed as christians.We become further from worldly things ..Its as simple as that .We are sinners saved by Gods grace and mercy and trust in him in all ways ..It cant be simpler than that.My faith is not based on a building .We simly study the word and try live by it.if e have sins to confess we confess directly to God why would you rely on a human to forgive you when they two are sinners ?.When you cn go directly to God himself ..You can only be saved by putting your faith in Jesus and repenting ..Your own first pope as you profess peter said exactly that and he never prayed or trusted in anyone but Jesus ..He was also married ..

I have never heard of sspx church is it off branch of catholic church im not sure ..

Again being part of a church doesnt save you it is having faith in Jesus that saves .You can be a member of a church and not live a christian life so no through faith and repentace and living as Jesus instructed one is saved

There was no prayer to abraham .You put the word prayed in there when in fact it is not in scripture.You can believe yourself that it was but again it is not in the word .And abrraham had no authority to do anythin nor mentioned having any .He simply told the man that if his family dont believe the prophets then that is there choice but that noone whom has passed on will ever be able to help them ..

No the church changed the commandments you basically admt it..The end result is people praying to statues and making idols of dead saints..Once you have faith in Jesus you are a saint a such and its so sad to see catholics with all the statues dedicated to dead saints and not soley to the one true God .The church denies it but iv witnessed it with my own eyes

In regards forgiveness i chose to trust in God to forgive me it is your choice how you interpit that scripture ..But only God knows if you are sincere when confessing your sins as he knows your very thoughts and heart ,a priest doesnt

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@jp byrne "We go by the instructons and word of the bible ."

This claim meets two problems.

Problem 1) Jesus gave His apostles certain privileges.
In Acts 13 a group who had already come to share these with them (perhaps Simon Niger was Simon Peter so one of them) handed these on to Sts Paul and Barnabas by imposition of hands.
In Titus and I and II Timothy, St. Paul says he has handed them on to Titus and Timothy, by the imposition of hands. He instructs them as to whom and when and why to hand these privileges on.

In order to follow that instruction, you need to have a bishop who got the imposition of hands from the Apostles.

Problem 2) In order for your interpretation to be the correct one, it needs to have at least no open contradiction to what the Church of Christ, the one He actually founded, not the one taking it as a brand name, has taught century after century.

Given that century after century, the Catholic Church has had an official position, this means that it either needs to have the same position as the Catholic Church, or there needs to have been century after century another Church that has the same theology as you have.

"We simly study the word and try live by it.if e have sins to confess we confess directly to God why would you rely on a human to forgive you when they two are sinners ?"

I already answered that. Jesus gave the apostles the privilege to forgive sins, on God's behalf. He didn't say this privilege only applies to the Apostles when they are personally right with God.

One can oppose a father confessor if he tries to seduce one to sin, or if he opposes the tradition of the Church (and therefore the Bible), but not just because he committed a sin one knows of.

"Your own first pope as you profess peter said exactly that and he never prayed or trusted in anyone but Jesus ..He was also married"

In the occasion, there were many instructions of detail he had to leave out in the speech on Pentecost. In context, repenting and believing in Jesus involved joining the Church in Jerusalem and doing as they said.

If Ananias and Sapphira had repented before trying to openly perpetrate the fraud, or if someone else had prepared a similar stunt and and repented in the last moment, after seeing them die, and then the next day had asked what to do, they would have been told to first make a confession and in it resolve whether to keep the money, or openly give just a part, or give it all, as the custom was, and in any of the former cases, how to deal with living in Jerusalem and not following the custom of the there Church. Perhaps it was not long before Samaria had a Church, where this custom was not necessarily followed, so they could have been told to go to Samaria.

I am very confident he prayed to the Blessed Virgin after She had been taken up.

His being married doesn't mean he necessarily stayed in married life as an apostle.

"I have never heard of sspx church is it off branch of catholic church im not sure .."

After Vatican II and especially after the liturgic Reform, many people (still a minority) came out and said "this is not right, the reform is wrong and the council was not quite OK" and some said "John XXIII didn't do what it takes to validly convoke a council" and some said "John XXIII couldn't convoke a council, since he was not Pope" and a few more things like that.

"Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Pii X" / FSSPX was founded by an archbishop, who had become a bishop, who had become head of the Holy Ghost Fathers, who had retired from that when they changed the rule, and they have the policy to recognise "John XXIII" through "Francis" as Popes, but to resist what they have been doing since the Liturguc Reform.
Sedevcantists are people who say they weren't Popes and we don't have a Pope and may not get one before Christ returns.
Pope Michael is a man who died last year, who went from SSPX to Sedevacantist and concluded a pope needed to be elected, he arranged a conclave, and as no bishops or priests came, he was the theologically most well read male among the electors, he was elected in 1990, consecrated bishop in late 2011, and died August 2 last year. I suppose you don't live in Kansas?

None of these have priests in prison due to sex abuse scandals.
SSPX may have had a priest in prison over helping to reunite children with a parent who went to the masses of an SSPX priest, they did have a priest in prison who had been father confessor of three young men, who had told them to go out in a storm to test their courage, and the boat sank and the young men with them. But none who went to prison over touching a boy child.

"Again being part of a church doesnt save you it is having faith in Jesus that saves"

Living as Jesus instructed usually means living in a Church, or at least having a Church in the distance as back-up. It doesn't mean living without a Church.

"There was no prayer to abraham ."

The request to Abraham was a request for Abraham to do supernatural things, not simply physical things. If Abraham had raised a dead man to convert the brothers of the rich man, it is obvious he would have been doing this by praying to God. If Abraham had sent someone to give water to the rich man, it is obvious Abraham would have had that power on delegation of God. So, the rich man was essentially doing what we do when we "pray to saints" as the phrase goes.

Abraham refused both requests, but not because of that form. He refused both the request for the rich man himself, because he was damned, and for the brothers, because they were damning themselves by professing to believe what in fact they did not believe, Moses and the prophets. This is by the way the reason we can identify the rich man's brothers as Pharisees.

So, we have everything that is really involved in "praying to saints" except that phrase, and therefore we know the practise is safe, because Abraham said nothing against the practise as such.

"And abrraham had no authority to do anythin"

If he hadn't - why didn't he say so?

Let me share you a piece of learning I came across, through Trey Smith. In the second temple era, before Christ, some books were circulating. One of them, he read from, and it involves people standing in confusion over such and such a person that they persecuted being saved, and above them. It's partly identical to Wisdom 5:1-5. But it goes on to say that the persecutors were saved and forgiven, after death, by the prayers of the saint they had persecuted.

If at least some believed a saint could by his prayers reverse even a damnation, or intervene when someone who had persecuted them was being judged, when Jesus was around, why did Jesus not say anything against trusting in the prayer of saints?