Dialogues under an AiG Video

Look Out Christians: This Will Change Your Mind on the Age of the Earth
Answers in Genesis, 9 Sept. 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoUT6IOrK4o

I

Nikola E

What about Gobekli Tepe in Turkey? The ruins seem to be from pre flood people from around 11,000-12,000 years ago. Perhaps there are more years between the time of Adam to the days of Noah than we originally estimated. Any thoughts? 🙂

Kevin Kelly

Yeah, a lot of the civilisations from that time seem to have missedd the flood.........

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Kevin Kelly To both : solution to the problem is in carbon dating.

Göbekli Tepe was Babel, enduring c. 40 (max 51 years) between death of Noah 350 years after the Flood and 401 years after the Flood Peleg was born.

2607 - 2556 BC.

7000 extra years as per 43 pmC in the atmosphere when it started, 6000 extra years as per 48 - 49 pmC in the atmosphere when it ended.

This takes care of civilisations later than Göbekli Tepe too.

CD Lahm

Obviously faked

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@CD Lahm Do you mean GT is faked?

Why not simply allow the scientists the benefit of the doubt of having used the wrong calibration for C14?

IF they assume the C14 content was c. 100 pmC back when the organic material (in this case layers of charcoal, both below the lowest buildings and above the highest rubble) back when this organic material was from, they conclude from remaining pmC values around 25 that the age is abut two halflives. With 1000 years between start and finish - but ... If instead it was just below 50 pmC and rapidly rising, it is just a bit less than one halflife old, and the timespan much shorter.

Which corroborates the Bible. More specifically Genesis 11, first passage, the one verses 1 to 9.

CD Lahm

@Hans-Georg Lundahl No, I mean that you took my comment as literally as these guys take the book of Genesis.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@CD Lahm You hadn't made one when you commented under mine with "obviously faked" and I do take Genesis more literally than I might take your next comment after the reply you just gave.

Adam Golden

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Laughably wrong. You're altering facts just to support your faith. Gobekli Tepe's last known use before being filled in is definitive. Your version is a single Book with no proof except how you do mental gymnastics to try to make it true.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Adam Golden « Laughably wrong. »

Whether I am wrong or not, enjoy the chuckle.

« You're altering facts just to support your faith. »

While the facts as I present them do support my faith, what exact uncontrovertible facts am I « altering » ?

« Gobekli Tepe's last known use before being filled in is definitive. »

We have not seen anyone actually use Göbekli Tepe before it was filled in.

We have just seen the filled in ruins being dug out.

« Your version is a single Book »

That's the case for very many facts of things even less ancient.

« with no proof »

Except a narrative taken as historical.

« except how you do mental gymnastics to try to make it true. »

You haven't shown any absurd mental gymnastics so far, if it's really funny, why hide the joke from me ?

Flouserschird

One interesting thing I’ve noticed. Young Earth creationists base their understanding of history from the exact same institutions that teach evolution. They create their narrative solely around their understanding of history which is clearly a lie, as well as evolution. But when there is clear evidence of a global empire across the globe building the same architecture, pyramids, symbols they have no explanation. It would have to have been made before the flood. But of course in a 6000 year narrative it would be impossible to create a global empire from Adam to Noah. In my belief there is a missing historical narrative that the Bible purposely left out. I believe the garden of Eden was simply a garden. Not the entire planet. Why would the Bible refer to it as a garden? How could the be they kicked out of this garden? Why was an angel sent to guard it? This implies it’s still exist somewhere. It’s almost as if young earth creationist narrative is based around the idea that the garden of Eden was the entire planet but the Bible never specifies that. If you are going to take Genesis literal, then literally the garden of Eden is literally just a garden!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Flouserschird "Young Earth creationists base their understanding of history from the exact same institutions that teach evolution."

No, not really ...

"They create their narrative solely around their understanding of history which is clearly a lie,"

Is history, or is our understanding of it? Or the understanding of the institutions?

"as well as evolution."

Also a lie?

"But when there is clear evidence of a global empire across the globe building the same architecture, pyramids, symbols they have no explanation. It would have to have been made before the flood."

I don't think the pyramids are from a global empire, but from vain attempts to create one. Stone circles are usually older, and Göbekli Tepe was the centre of a really global one. Stray connections to New Zealand and to Australia, which you don't find later in the Near East.

I also think all of this is after the Flood.

"But of course in a 6000 year narrative it would be impossible to create a global empire from Adam to Noah."

In the pre-Flood world, it was 2242 years from Adam's creation to Noah's stepping into the Ark.

Not sure why 2242 years would be too little for a global empire.

Not sure why the 350 years from Flood to Noah's death would be too little to try to renew it.

The Earth is 40 000 km around, so from any point (like out of Eden or on a mountain in the Armenian range) to any other point, the distance would be in the range below 20 000 km.

How much would it take to walk 20 000 km on foot, leaving out sea travels?

I walked to Santiago in a medium of 15 km / day from Pamplona to Santiago, 50 days, so, let's say 15 km / day:

20 000 / 15 = 1333 days.
1333 / 365.2425 = 3.65 years.

Add that at a first time journey, the landscape can be rougher to get through ... I'll go with an explorer's account I read about which gave 6 km / day. Yes, Lewis and Clark expedition.

20 000 / 6 = 3333 days
3333 / 365.2425 = 9.125 years.

As to population, calculate exponential growth and it works.

"I believe the garden of Eden was simply a garden. Not the entire planet."

Well, while I think Edenic conditions would, without sin, have prevailed on the globe, I agree it was a garden.

"This implies it’s still exist somewhere."

Except it was either wiped out by the global Flood, or it was lifted off the underlying plates and into heaven. I subscribe to the latter theory.

As to location, I think it was possibly Holy Land or Jordan (if Jordan, which isn't very lush, it means the garden itself was lifted up - or washed away).

"It’s almost as if young earth creationist narrative is based around the idea that the garden of Eden was the entire planet but the Bible never specifies that."

I don't know who is implying what you say or how. I can believe it was as big as a land, but not as big as earth.

Nod was "East of Eden" meaning Eden was West of Nod.

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Flouserschird

As a Bible believing Christian who also has a keen interest in archeological, anthropology, and geology… it’s incredibly hard to understand a young earths mindset. They seem to line up their views based solely on “anti-evolution” but fail to acknowledge the absolute evidence of the antiquity of the earth and its history.
Göbekli Tepe is at least 8000-9000 years old. The Great Pyramids of Giza is now thought to be even older! How can you explain the greatness of megalithic structures? Who built them? How can it possibly fit into a 6000 year old narrative? It’s quite impossible! They would have had to be built before the flood, but young creationists only believe in a few hundred years between creation and the flood which would make it impossible for a global empire to emerge to have the knowledge, man power, and will to build such incredible structures that are impossible today? How can you explain the ancient Samaritan tablets that are older than Genesis? How can you say there was no recorded or written record before Moses wrote genesis which was thousands of years after the flood! There is clearly a missing narrative and piece of history that we are not accounting for!

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"Göbekli Tepe is at least 8000-9000 years old."

Bad dating methods.

"The Great Pyramids of Giza is now thought to be even older!"

Not even that, but simply a bad guess by Hancock.

"How can you explain the greatness of megalithic structures? Who built them?"

For Göbekli Tepe:
Mankind between Noah's death and Peleg's birth. Genesis 11:1-9.

"How can it possibly fit into a 6000 year old narrative? It’s quite impossible!"

Not the least ...

"They would have had to be built before the flood, but young creationists only believe in a few hundred years between creation and the flood"

2242 for LXX and 1658 for Vulgate (Masoretic, King James) versions of the Genesis 5 genealogy.

"which would make it impossible for a global empire to emerge to have the knowledge, man power, and will to build such incredible structures that are impossible today?"

I don't think they are all that impossible today, just uninteresting to replicate.

Adam was the greatest natural scientist after Jesus.

"How can you explain the ancient Samaritan tablets that are older than Genesis?"

I don't know what you are talking about. I do know Samarian version of Genesis 11 agrees with one or two manuscripts of the LXX version - and the Roman martyrology.

"How can you say there was no recorded or written record before Moses wrote genesis"

I'm not saying that's the case.

"which was thousands of years after the flood!"

More like 1500 years after the Flood or halfway between Flood and Jesus.

"There is clearly a missing narrative and piece of history that we are not accounting for!"

Before we reach the specifically Hebrew parts of Genesis, with Abraham and his line, the prior parts are short and schematic and probably learned by heart at some point for oral transmission. Whoever transmitted that the way the Hebrews went, priorised fidelity to source over plentyful material.

I think Mahabharata and Ramayana can be traced to opposite priority - lots of material, and then both harmonising it and introducing idolatry led to misrepresentations of what happened.

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Judson Baker

I only go by the Bible on the earths age. It irks me when they say it’s millions or billions of yrs old. God made the light from all the stars visible to us on earth visible as soon as he created them. Also Noah’s flood is what killed the dinosaurs not a asteroid.

J A

Except we have proof of the asteroid.

Judson Baker

@J A just because there is a hole in the ground off in the Gulf of Mexico by the Yucatán that could have been during or the start of the flood I do not believe scientific theory. Theory’s are only a so called educated guess. So I suppose you believe in evolution too. Sorry but there is no way we are here by a fluke. God created everything including dinosaurs and man approximately 6000 yrs ago period.

J A

@Judson Baker You do realize that the term theory in science is NOT the same as theory in everyday life, right? Do you question cell theory? molecular theory? germ theory? Gravity? Relativity?
I believe in evolution, as we have evidence to support it. Not one scientist would say that the creation of the earth or the systems within it are a fluke. Improbable odds, sure, but people win the lottery every week with improbable odds. As a geologist, I cannot fathom how anyone could believe the earth is only 6000 years old, nor that the flood created the strata of the world. That is NOT how the laws of superposition and original horizontality work, and those are provable. The simple fact is that you could not get the strata that is evident in places such as the Grand Canyon if you have turbid waters.

The Eternal's Believer

The Bible mentions nothing about the dinosaurs being killed by the Flood. That is a story YECs make up to explain away the fact that this planet is older than 6000 years old. The only non-human creatures mentioned in the Flood account are the animals and insects that we know of today.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"God made the light from all the stars visible to us on earth visible as soon as he created them."

No. He created them on day 4, and it was only on day 5 they needed to be seen by fish and birds that some still orient migrations after stars.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@The Eternal's Believer You are last adressed in this resumé of the thread.

"Noah’s flood is what killed the dinosaurs not a asteroid."
"Except we have proof of the asteroid."
"a hole in the ground off in the Gulf of Mexico by the Yucatán that could have been during or the start of the flood"

I was going to mention connecting asteroid to Flood.

"nor that the flood created the strata of the world."

Have you heard of Guy Berthault?

"in places such as the Grand Canyon if you have turbid waters."

Yes, you can if the waters are oversaturated with sediment and consequently depose all the time (also provides for automatic sorting after different grain sizes, think it's called "hydrostatic" sorting ...

"The only non-human creatures mentioned in the Flood account are the animals and insects that we know of today."

The text is too unspecific for that. That said, there were dinosaurs on the Ark and they remained alive for some time after the Flood, probably into or close to historical times even.

IV

JACK HAGGERTY

I hold to Judeo-Christianity for its moral and spiritual truth but this video will drag the church back into the medieval age like the worst of Islam.
The Earth is 4.6 billion years old as every geologist in every university in the world knows. Genesis is poetry written around 1450-1400 B.C.
Isotopic analysis of meteorites along with rock samples from the Moon have given us an accurate estimate of the age of our God-created planet.

Sulpicius

So you're fully supportive of god's endorsement of slavery, genocide, and sex trafficking...and you're worried about earth-dating slipping us back into the dark ages?

Jeffery Goldthorpe

Back when I was going to school (I am 53 now) the Earth was 2.5 billion years old and everyone knew that. The radioactive dating system has a number of substantial flaws in it. The geological column exists nowhere except textbooks. The sedimentary layers of the rocks of the worldwide flood cover almost entire continents and match up with other continents.

Susan McIntyre

Genesis is written in historical, not poetic language. History makes statements, which is what Genesis does. It’s not poetic nor prophetic. If you take it literally, you will have no trouble understanding it. Go ahead, read it with no preconceived ideas. Ask God to help you understand. Or remain mired in your ignorance.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"but this video will drag the church back into the medieval age like the worst of Islam."

Why are you against the "medieval age"?

It was less like Islam, for instance, had less police corps.

"The Earth is 4.6 billion years old as every geologist in every university in the world knows."

Tas Walker? I don't think he agrees to that ...

"Isotopic analysis of meteorites along with rock samples from the Moon have given us an accurate estimate of the age of our God-created planet."

Supposing you know the initial parent daughter ratio ...

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Sulpicius "god's endorsement of slavery, genocide, and sex trafficking"

Servitude is a more correct translation than chattel slavery ... and the conditions when God gave Joshua power over Canaanites were exceptional, God took drastic measures about certain specific peoples of a certain specific area in a certain specific time, and Amalecites a bit beyond, not saying it's valid for all times.

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Sean Martin

I would strongly disagree on any teaching from John Calvin. He is definitely not any kind of leader in the church that anyone needs to follow. He peaches a heretic claiming TULIP as his guideline. He believes man is totally depraved and cannot come to faith in God. He teaches that God sentences some to hell and some to Heaven prior to any kind of choice they can make here. Not somebody you're going to gain any kind of intellectual wisdom or truth from God's Word! Be careful of wolves in sheeps clothing

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Did the video mention John Calvin?

Here is his comment on Matthew 28:1, only quoting first paragraph:

"We now come to the closing scene of our redemption. For the lively assurance of our reconciliation with God arises from Christ having come from hell as the conqueror of death, in order to show that he had the power of a new life at his disposal. Justly, therefore, does Paul say that there will be no gospel, and that the hope of salvation will be vain and fruitless, unless we believe that Christ is risen from the dead, (1 Corinthians 15:14.) For then did Christ obtain righteousness for us, and open up our entrance into heaven; and, in short, then was our adoption ratified, when Christ, by rising from the dead, exerted the power of his Spirit, and proved himself to be the Son of God. No though he manifested his resurrection in a different manner from what the sense of our flesh would have desired, still the method of which he approved ought to be regarded by us also as the best. he went out of the grave without a witness, that the emptiness of the place might be the earliest indication; next, he chose to have it announced to the women by the angels that he was alive; and shortly afterwards he appeared to the women, and, finally, to the apostles, and on various occasions."

Is this heretical?

Now, St. Thomas would agree to this, except the inexactitude of "unless we believe that Christ is risen from the dead" while St. Paul spoke of unless it actually happened. Now, what would St. Thomas Aquinas have said about Genesis?

You are free to consult his Postilla in libros Geneseos, if you agree it is probably a youth work of his, while he was staying with Benedictines in Naples region, and if not, you are also free to consult the Historia scholastica, which he swore an oath to uphold, along with Decretum Gratiani and Sentences of Peter Lombard.

VI

Joseph Nebeker

If all men and women before the Flood didn't eat meat, why was Able a shepherd?
We know Adam and Eve wore skins of animals that God prepared for them when they were kicked out of the garden. The book of Jasher talks about their children also wearing skins. It talks about the sons of men offering sacrifices to god, and that Abel sacrificed a lamb, which is consistent with the Mosaic law.
Did all the lambs they killed for their skins get sacrificed to God? Or did the people kill the animals for their skins, then throw away the meat? Maybe they used it for fertilizer.

Kevin Kelly

Who told Abel God wanted him to kill a sheep? I mean, it is a pretty weird idea.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"If all men and women before the Flood didn't eat meat, why was Able a shepherd?"

Wool? Avoiding the need of skins.

Joseph Nebeker

@Kevin Kelly
God did, and possibly also Adam. That's a pretty weird question.

Joseph Nebeker

@Hans-Georg Lundahl Then why are we told they wore skins? Not only Adam and Eve, but their children?
Of course man eventually started spinning and making clothing out of fibers, but how long did it take them to figure that out?

Kevin Kelly

@Joseph Nebeker That is not what it says in the Bible. You might find the question weird but the situation was pretty weird too. I mean, God was just dropping in from time to time.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Joseph Nebeker We are told Adam and Eve got skin clothes from God. Genesis 3:21 says:

And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them.

It does not say that their children also had such, what I have read.

However, it is highly possible that spinning actually wasn't done up to Noema, the sister of Tubal-Cain. Even so, shorn wool could be useful as isolation material and to make beds by placing skins or reed mats above this.

But you have a point. It is possible that on occasions of making someone a skin garment a beast was slaughtered and then eaten. This does not equate to generalised eating of meat. New food items are needed much more often than new garments.

I do not know the actual status of milk before the Flood.

Obviously sinners - among them Neanderthals in what is now Belgium - ate both woolly rhino and human flesh. Not saying all Neanderthals were such sinners, those in Spain preferred pine nuts. Their food habits can be deduced from remains found in their dental calculus.

VII

Kuno Egger

Before you start, don't you think you should provide the HUGE missing piece? Why do you think the bible is the real word of a god? Because the bible itself said so?

Kevin Kelly

Not to mention a coherent internally consistent explanation as to what one means by 'god'.

Drew Drake

@Kevin Kelly
A definition which would differentiate what they're talking about from the imaginary, would also be incredibly helpful.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Why do I believe the Old Testament is the real word of God?

Because Jesus said so.

Why would I believe the assessment of Jesus?

Because His saying He's God and His resurrecting from the dead show He is God.

Why do I believe this about Jesus?

Because the Church He founded testified it.

Why is this not a fraud?

Because She got persecuted.

Why is this not a mistake, an honest but a real one?

Because what She testifies in the Gospels rules out that possibility.

Kuno Egger

@Hans-Georg Lundahl All of these are bible stories, another name for Iron Age mythology. You believe the bible is the true word of god because you believe its stories? Can your powers of reasoning really be that primitive?

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@Kuno Egger Let's take the last first.

"Can your powers of reasoning really be that primitive?"

1) Power of reasoning is not developed over the centuries.
2) Agreeing with adults in another century is not having childishly underdeveloped powers of reasoning.

"You believe the bible is the true word of god because you believe its stories?"

Yes. And I do not believe the stories only because they are the true word of God, but also because the stories have been taken as historic. I take Spiderman as fiction because its first known audience (which we are still part of or near immediate heirs of) take it as fiction. I take Arrian as history, because his first known audience took his work about Alexander as history.

The Gospels were taken as history by the Church, and not taken as fiction, possibly as fraud (which is a different thing) by people around Her.

"All of these are bible stories, another name for Iron Age mythology."

Arrian is as much "Iron age" as the Gospels.

Mythology is a very ill defined concept these days. If we go back to what it means, back then, it does not mean "fiction" ....

To return to the last. Are your powers of reasoning that much conditioned by the former DDR?