Gen Z Catholic made a four part video against Sedevacantism : his overview of the history omits Pope Michael I

Gen Z Catholic made a four part video against Sedevacantism : his overview of the history omits Pope Michael I · Do I Believe the Papacy At All? Yes. · Gen Z Catholic's Video, a Dialogue · Gen Z Catholic vs Me, Argument on Valid or not Papacies, Part I, What Would St. Robert Really Say? · Can the Proposed Defense For "united himself to each man" stand? No · Bishop Barron Against Rad Trads · Gen Z Catholic vs Me, Argument on Valid or not Papacies, Part II, Misreading Documents, Are We? · Gen Z Catholic vs Me, Argument on Valid or not Council · Gen Z Catholic vs Me, Argument on Valid or not Orders

By a four part video, I don't mean a series of four videos. I mean the videos has (at least) four sections. Here I comment on the first section, on the Sedevacantist history.

Sedevacantism Refuted - (Full Documentary 2023)
Gen Z Catholic | 21 Dec. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIdJ2VVimUQ

1:32 There are different views among sedes on what to hold of people accepting "Popes" like "John XXIII" or "Francis" ...

One is, none of them are Catholic. That might be the view of for instance Dimond Brothers, or at least that this holds for bishops (an article from 1977 argued invalidity of the Novus Ordo missal from non-Catholicity of not just "Paul VI" but all the bishops accepting him).

Another is, they are real Catholics, but under the wrong Pope. That's a more typical approach from Pope Michael I and I think his successor too.

YP Poe

@user-kb4dv1ud3f

Instead of commenting this much at once, consider doing a video: 1. your likelihood of engagement is much higher that way; 2. here, you're in the kill box; 3. you're just a click away from comment deletion in this comment section; 4. finally, you won't give the immediate impression that you're a few petitions shy of a litany.

Hans Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

YP Poe, I don't own a video camera, and I pretty often find people engaged with me anyway. I don't know what the "kill box" is. If Gen Z Catholic decides to delete my comments, well, I have fortunately already saved the comments to a blog post, which will be updated with your input.

Finally, that was kind of funny. The one in Loreto is especially apt for the season, right?

1:53 According to this definition, followers of Pope Michael II (currently) and Palmarians are not Sedevacantists.

3:59 Twenty.
I know that Pope Michael I did not recognise "Vatican II" and I have not heard of him holding another one.

It seems that a few Sedes in Argentina and Spain formerly held to "Alexander IX" who seems to have been uniting two different Orthopapist lines uniting under him or a predecessor, the name "Leo XIV" pops into my memory. That group seems to have since then stepped back.

4:42 I can just mention, a Vatican II document calling people back is usually lots lengthier than a Trent document with a few anathemas.

Gaudium et Spes 36,836 words 216,858 characters
Decree Concerning Original Sin (Trent V) 1,053 words 5,894 characters and 5 anathemas.

Luke D

@luked7956

Yeah. It probably could have been 2 words: "come back."

Gaudium et Spes was one which more bishops voted against than others. You can fit a lot of trouble into 36,836 word documents.

Hans Georg Lundahl

You can say that again, @luked7956!

8:49 I am noting that the feast of fools involved no Eucharist, hence no supreme sacrilege.

9:27 In Church after Church in Spain, I found the notice this Church was "reformada en 1980" or "en 1982" ... meaning they got rid of the old altar, and replaced it with a "people's altar" ... while this may not have had official sanction from Rome, it had so very obviously from the Spanish Episcopate as a whole. To me that is an official sanction.

9:33 It never explicitly says to scrap Sts Barbara or Christopher.

B U T Sacrosanctum Concilium:

92. As regards the readings, the following shall be observed: a) Readings from sacred scripture shall be arranged so that the riches of God's word may be easily accessible in more abundant measure.
b) Readings excerpted from the works of the fathers, doctors, and ecclesiastical writers shall be better selected.
c) The accounts of martyrdom or the lives of the saints are to accord with the facts of history.

Since lots of Protestant and unbelieving historians had concluded Sts Barbara and Christopher were myths, and lots of Catholic historians were agreeing with them, indeed discouraged from disagreeing with them, this means Sts Barbara and Christopher were removed. I think temporarily, but I still think it was world wide, even very conservative episcopates (Sweden, possibly Poland too, otherwise among the least bad in the Liturgic reform).

9:51 Excellent. However, while you complain about practises disagreeing with Conciliar Documents, how about this one?

Dei Verbum § 3 requires Young Earth Creationism:

3. God, who through the Word creates all things (see John 1:3) and keeps them in existence, gives men an enduring witness to Himself in created realities (see Rom. 1:19-20). Planning to make known the way of heavenly salvation, He went further and from the start manifested Himself to our first parents. Then after their fall His promise of redemption aroused in them the hope of being saved (see Gen. 3:15) and from that time on He ceaselessly kept the human race in His care, to give eternal life to those who perseveringly do good in search of salvation (see Rom. 2:6-7). Then, at the time He had appointed He called Abraham in order to make of him a great nation (see Gen. 12:2). Through the patriarchs, and after them through Moses and the prophets, He taught this people to acknowledge Himself the one living and true God, provident father and just judge, and to wait for the Savior promised by Him, and in this manner prepared the way for the Gospel down through the centuries.

CCC § 283 requires rejection of Young Earth Creationism:

283 The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements. . . for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me."

CCC in its entirety, therefore also §283, was however backed by a man your current Pope can't allow you to take as a "real but bad" Pope, since your current Pope canonised him 27 April 2014.

It has also been backed by Wojtyla, Ratzinger and is still backed by Bergoglio (plus materially by a few Sedes who don't accept the late Pope Michael I or his successor).

10:29 You have just given a very good reason why CCC with §283 can't come from a real Pope or from three real Popes.

13:24 You agree that the man you just described as a pretty scheming crook against Thuc is a man your Pope canonised in 14 October 2018?

14:46 I had rejected him before he died. Apparently, the Palmarian Catechism involves the statement:

"the Antichrist sees the world from the fourth dimension, the Most Pure Virgin from the eighth"

Like the Spanish military, the Palmarians like to adress the Blessed Virgin as Virgen Purísima, and I have no quarrel with that -- or Her being more circumspect than the Antichrist.

However, the world has three dimensions, not four or eight. I rejected him on that ground in October 2002.

15:58 Was not De Lauriers also advising Pius XII in connexion with Humani Generis?

Like non-condemnation of Adam having biological ancestors?

17:49 Here is a problem.
Exactly which Old Catholic group did the consecrating bishop belong to?

Old Catholic as Utrecht Union, or Old Roman Catholic as following:

"A Roman priest, Arnold Harris Mathew, had been born of a mixed Catholic-Anglican marriage, studied and was ordained a Catholic priest. Mathew resolved to provide for the Sacramental needs of the Anglican faithful by receiving consecration (1908) as a bishop from the Archbishop of Utrecht in Holland, and establishing a visible church structure for like minded people in England. The theology, morality, and worship of this Church were to be strictly Catholic, while allowing for the vernacular worship and optionally married clergy to which the High Church party had grown accustomed since the time of Henry VIII. In 1910, Archbishop Mathew felt compelled to sever relations with the Archbishop of Utrecht, who had fallen in with the “Old Catholics” in denying the infallibility of the Pope and a number of other significant matters. Mathew adopted the name used by the Church of Utrecht before its fall from orthodoxy, “Old Roman Catholic.” Mathew's understanding of what it meant to be an Old Roman Catholic is, perhaps, best expressed in a prayer that he composed, and which we have featured on our home page."

What is an Old Roman Catholic?
https://caer-glow.rosarychurch.net/orc_query.html

In the latter case, whatever one may say about the licitness of receiving the consecration, it was presumably valid and did not fall under the disposition of Pius XII that Old Catholics (as Utrecht Union) had lost real orders in connexion with recognising the Anglican ones.

20:06 "dictate major life decisions"

Like Novus Ordo-ites:

• systematically refusing me to get to a monastery or seminar back in the nineties and then, when I no longer was interested,
• systematically refusing me the social and financial means to get a family?

By refusing me the financial means, I don't simply mean like not printing my writings, including such that do not directly condemn the Novus Ordo establishment by name (there are many, I am not a monomaniac with no other topic) but by telling people right and left they had no right to either read or even less print them, nor do they allow musicians to play my compositions for their and my upkeep.

20:16 "members were not allowed to read newspapers or watch the new television"

Lay members or priests and seminarians?

For the latter, obviously refraining from getting obsessed with news is a really good thing.

When I come across people I consider as priests, who seem to have limited time on the internet, perhaps an hour a week or sth, I ask them to ask a layman to go to my blog posts, print them out and hand them to the priest.

21:58 Oh, nice ... you think a man should basically be judged as if what he privately believes on a contingent matter (because there is no a priori about who is the pope at a given time) is the most important whether he makes it so or not. That others have a right to bother, to poke, to investigate, and to judge based on that, rather than how he choses to act.

So, he had a vision. He was aware of the contradictions. He did not chose to act on it.

What about judging him about the things he actually did chose to act on?

22:45 Checked. I have no children nearby.

23:28 The incident of the 12 year old girl's excessive punishment or rather how she was abused, reminds me of some of the Trad attitudes against me.

As I have often been given the silent treatment, I cannot document that x, y, z is what they want about me, but if that were not true (like admitting myself insane or incompetent as academic just because I live on the street, or to decide to live a life as St. Benoît Joseph Labre, despite my already knowing before I left my last appartment that I had no duty or vocation to be a monk or any makeshift substitute for it), I have a very hard time explaining some of the things that eventually did happen, while and after I was at St. Nicolas du Chardonnet.

I deliberately refused to finally join a Sede group in Paris, as long as I hadn't talked certain things through, which I was given no opportunity for, as the priest (like more than one other ones in the FSSPX) refused to converse with me apart from confession.

Luke D

Were you looking to join the IMBC out there? Or was it a different one.

Hans Georg Lundahl

wait, @luked7956 ... IMBC ... Institutum Matris Boni Consilii?

Yes, would have been that one.

HunIvan

@hunivan7672

I'm sorry you went through abuses, but the truth is that lots of evil and mentally ill people end up in positions where they are close to vulnerable children that they can abuse. This occurs both inside and outside the church. Their abuses against your were wrong and you didn't deserve to be treeated in such a manner. May God bless and restore you and may He forgive all our sins.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Thank you, @hunivan7672.

Btw, @hunivan7672 ... did you understand that the abuses happened to me as an adult?

27:46 Is Dimond Brothers' channel all that much fringe?

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30:59 The normal view of a "Totalist" would be to check:

• is there a way in which the Church could again have a Pope?
• has it already been done?

I wonder, so far, your overview has omitted Pope Michael I and his successor Michael II.

Is, in your view, Orthopapism things like Clemente Dominguez and Francis Schuckardt?

Or is Conclavism on your radar?

32:30 Since 1990's, the decade starting with Michael I being elected, while I was still a Novus Ordo, the Novus Ordo establishment, the Vatican II Popes, i e the last three of the list, have supported:

• CCC § 283, which is open to different interpretations about Adam, but I believe that all of them are heretical or apostatic (the most benign being most at variance with Dei Verbum §3)
• pretending Fundamentalist exegesis is non-Cathlic, while in the 19th C, 1830's through 1890's, the approved positions were exactly the Fundamentalist range : YEC, Gap Theory, Day-Age Theory.
• not condemning the abuse of Dei Verbum § 11 saying "literary forms / genres" ... abused by claims that Genesis 1 -- 11 belong to the "literary genre myth" which simply does not exist.

The genre is anthropological or Marxist, not literary. In Greek culture, a specific set of history, involving a wider range of direct interaction with the supernatural and preternatural than later Greek history, and also usually set in pre-Classical societies of the Bronze Age, was limited off as myth. A pagan solution to a pagan problem and did not even mean "no real events" ...

To accept very modern extrapolations of this, and apply them to Sacred Scripture, is simply, from the perspective of literary forms, insofar as Dei Verbum § 11 could have a legitimate meaning, idiotic, but also involves conclusions that allow some to dismiss the obvious meaning of Trent Session V.

Fiducia Supplicans has adressed German bishops, its reception by James Martin has been officially repudiated, I'm nearly tempted to say "fine" ... what about repudiating Sébastien Antoni, pretended Assumptionist, who in a Q and A section of a famous French paper denied the individual existence of Adam and Eve? Or Jimmy Akin, lay apologist, theorising that they could have been a kind of sacerdotal representatives of mankind instead of its ancestors? Why would mankind, prior to the Fall, have had any need for special sacerdotal intercessors? Robert Sungenis is obviously keeping the flame of the true faith (on this point as with Geocentrism) without his bishop bothering him too much about that, except the bishop seems to have forbidden him too much interaction with me, ordered him to participate in a stonewalling.

In Paris, I am stonewalled for agreeing with Sungenis.

32:48 That part of the canon law obviously applies to above as well.

39:05 Thank you for an excellent exposé on why Pope Michael I affirmed as valid episcopal lines:

• Thuc
• Lefebvre
• some Old Catholics
• Duarte Costa

and not the new rites. Obviously, this seems to concentrate on the Latin Church.

Not sure what happened in Byzantine Rite ....

Around 40 min into the video, next section starts. It deals with the sedevacantist argument or thesis "Vatican II popes are not real popes" ... there will very arguably be two more, on the other two arguments or theses that Gen Z Catholic described in section one, in a brief overview. I feel, that deserves three separate more posts, perhaps upcoming. This means I can now publish this one, the morning of St. Stephen's Day. The following are the three themes, presumably three remaining major parts within the video: