Traveling Israel on the "Jesus was a Jew" theme, answered

Traveling Israel on the "Jesus was a Jew" theme, answered · If Terms can be used Retrospectively, Jesus was a Palestinian · On Hezbollah and Gaza

Jesus was a Jew – Understanding Jesus’ background (He’d never heard of Palestine)
travelingisrael.com | 20 Dec. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awLQNraky7A

At the beginning of the video, I was told of the "Jesus was a Palestinian" pretended debunk at the end. I ff-ed to the end, and when passing by found an interesting theme, which which I later rwd-ed back to. The first portion of the video, I haven't seen yet.

9:40 If you don't accept Jesus is the Messiah, how about accepting He was the promised lamb?

'elohim yirelow hashsheh l@-'olah
God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering
w@-hinneh 'ayil 'ahar ne'ehaz bass@bak b@qarnaw
and behold a ram behind him caught in a thicket by its horns

You could argue that a ram being a male fullgrown sheep is a very big hassheh ... the word is sometimes translated sheep.
But you could also argue that as Exodus 12 uses sheh of "lamb" we should understand that Abraham prophecied that precisely a lamb should be provided, which was not immediately fulfilled.

Now, John stated 33 But after they were come to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it, hath given testimony, and his testimony is true. And he knoweth that he saith true; that you also may believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him.

The last reference to OT is not to Isaiah or Jeremiah, but to Moses, the rules of the Paschal lamb.

I just heard a video in which it was said that in the region, the shepherds were raising lambs for the temple, for the sacrifice. And, well, the man claimed that the swaddling clothes were also used by them for unblemished lambs ...

10:08 You have just made the point others have already made. The Old Covenant doesn't exist.

There is a New Covenant made by Christ and therefore by God, according to its own claims.
There is a New Covenant reasoned forth by men, on its own admission "the Jews had to transform" ...

11:06 By the time His followers were opposing the priests in the temple in Acts 4, they were the very first Catholics.

I was part time aspiring to be a Messianic Jew in my late preteen years, before settling for Catholicism.
(Btw, I was never circumcised, never did any Bar-Mitsva)

One thing I enjoy about it is how it's more like Judaism than Protestantism is. Tovia Singer made a fairly scathing remark on Calvinism, with which I totally agree.

11:13 Christianity, i e Catholicism, existed full blown on Pentecost day.

12:46 "and Jesus was not a Palestinian"

That's like saying His Mother's cousin was not named "Elizabeth Cohen" and He was not named "Josh Zimmermann" or "Josh Brotmann" ... literally speaking the remarks are of course true. And the ex-taxcollector disciple was not literally called "Matt Levi" either ...

1) names of rank, trade or place names were not used as surnames
2) Yehoshua was not abbreviated Josh
3) and Jewish names didn't have German etymologies.

It's nevertheless correct in a retrospective sense to refer to the wife of Zachary as Saint Elizabeth Cohen, or to Our Lord even as Josh Brotmann.

What you are saying is on the level of saying we can't say Mary or even María, because it was Miriam or Mariam in Hebrew and Aramaic.

A more interesting question is therefore, was Jesus of a nation that the Palestinians are of?

Or, in other words, were 1st C. Jews of Judaea about as likely to be ancestral to Palestinians of today as to Jews today? I'd say, yes.

Not really statistically, as the Christian Jews were a minority, but the odds evened out in AD 70, when the Christian Jews fled in time, parts fled to East Turkey (the kingdom of Abgar VI), parts fled to al-Fahl, Pella, in Jordan, and then returned. Meanwhile, Jews of Judaea were not believing Matthew 24 discourse and so did not flee. They were, as you will know, slaughtered.

So, 100 AD, Christian Jews would have risen in percentage of the population in Judea, about this time, the last surviving disciple pens a Gospel telling them "don't call yourselves Jews any more, from now use that word of our enemies!" (Btw, I think John Cohen is a better translation than John Fisherman or John Barzabdi, see thereon the thesis of Jean Colson, among others based on a second century Asia Minor debate about Easter date, more or less Jews, the less Jewish ones refer to Rome, the more Jewish ones to "we have known John who wore the golden headband" ...). He also makes it clear, this was not the usage back in Jesus' time.

So, between population of Judae and Galilee not of Jewish confession and population of Samaria not of Samaritan confession in AD 100 and Palestinians today, is there a single date or decade or century to which you can pinpoint a replacement of population?

Stephan Borgehammar on his thesis on How the Holy Cross was Found starts out with a historical background to the events. Jerusalem area AD 70 c. to 313. That's where I have the population in St. Helen's time being mainly Jews and Samarians of now Christian confession since a few centuries. 313 to 614, dito. Why? In The Desert a City, it is claimed that lots of the Christians in 614 had dreams (pretty much the Targum Onkelos genre) and "returned to the Jewish faith of their fathers" ... so, the Christians 313 to 614 were still descending from Jews.

In 628, the Christians who Judaised and persecuted Christians had two choices.
a) get back to Christianity again (which some did)
b) leave for Persia (which some did).

So, in 628, the majority population (as Christians were by this time) were still descended from Jews and Samarians.

Did this change in the time of Omar? No. The Christian population, and very probably also the Jewish population (both of which descended from Second Temple Jews, the Christians also from Samarians of that time) now split into Christians and Muslims, Jews and Muslims. Most Muslims, precisely as all Christians, descended from 1st C. Second Temple Jews. The invader became a small part of that, though they dominated socially and religiously.

So, the language known as Muslim Palestinian Aramaic is replaced by Arabic among the Muslims some time in the 900's.

The language known as Christian Palestinian Aramaic is replaced by Arabic among the Christians in the time of the Counter-Crusade, like the times of Baybars (if the book I read meant Baybars I, could be Baybars II?) or Al-Mansur.

Does this replacement of language mean a replacement of population?

In the 19th C, the Gaelic languages quickly sunk as to speakers on Ireland. The manmade famine actually did kill off some Gaels, and part of those replacing them were perhaps newcomers from England. But by and large the Irish in 1900 like those in 1750 descend from the Gaels, along with a large minority in the 17th C Plantations. Like settlers favourised by the régime ....

So, by this parallel, in 1300, the Non-Jewish population of the Holy Land would still mainly descend from Jews and Samarians of the late Second Temple Period.

This brings me to the question, do you know any later date at which there was a very massive replacement?

In 1860's, I think the Turkish governor arranged an expulsion of Jews, maybe of Christians too, and a replacement by Muslims from Algeria (who were invited to get away from the French) and Muslims from Cherkess (invited to get away from the Russians, which by the way had provoked their "conversion" to Islam) — but how massive was that?

Shaina Zion

@shainazion4073

The term "Palestinian" is a Political identity, not an ethnicity or nationality. The adoption of the term Palestinian, was because of the psy-ops of the KGB and PLO in 1964.

The Palestinians are made up of many different peoples. The Palestinians are Muslim refugees from Europe and Africa. Bosniaks, Circassians, Chechins and Sudanese are not Palestinians

!

The Palestinians are Arab Levantine laborers that came into the land as support personnel for the British, as well as because of the prosperity brought by the Jews reclaiming the land. Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis and Lebanese are not Palestinians

!

Hans Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

@shainazion4073 "The Palestinians are Muslim refugees from Europe and Africa. Bosniaks, Circassians, Chechins and Sudanese are not Palestinians

!"

This seems to be totally incorrect according to certain genetic tests.

Looking up:
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena of the Complutense University in Madrid.

The article in Human Immunology seems to have been published in 2001.

The finding was the Christian Palestinians and Muslim Palestinians are closer to Middle Eastern Jews than Ashkenazi Jews are.

Jordanians and Palestinians are as much the same population as Mitsrahi Jews and Mitsrahi Jews of the two states.

And by Mitsrahi, I don't mean simply Sabar, I mean those who were so back when the mandate began.

Plus, @shainazion4073 ...

"The Palestinians are Muslim refugees from Europe and Africa."

Don't be totally ridiculous, please!

1) The Muslims didn't come from Europe
2) The Muslims from Africa were not necessarily refugees
3) The Muslims are not even all of the Palestinians. Look at the Christians in Bethlehem and Nazareth!

Shaina Zion

@hglundahl Refugees from the Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Crimean war, the Balkan wars, the Turkish war of Independence, and World War I!!!

Hans Georg Lundahl

"from the Austro-Hungarian occupation of Bosnia-Herzegovina"

Doesn't make much sense, since the purpose of the occupation was to protect the Muslims from Serbian vendetta.

The other ones make some sense, but don't seem to have become dominant in the Palestinian population, according to the genetic test referred to.

Genocide in Gaza, Miko Peled
Palestinian Canadian Association
https://youtube.com/shorts/WWN_wPEQqh0?si=uEjfEOnRUCFDT7Kq