Thursday, February 13, 2014

... on "Contemporary Historians Not Mentioning Jesus" (Answering aekara1987)

A What were the texts? 1) somewhere else : The Question of Contemporary Evidence, 2) No, true enough Acharya, Varro did not write about Jesus ..., 3) What a blooper, Dan Barker from Atheist League!, 4) 1st C Historians, Wikipedia Category, 5) HGL's F.B. writings : Critiques of Testimonium Flavianum, 6) Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on "Contemporary Historians Not Mentioning Jesus" (Answering aekara1987), 7) Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Challenged Again on Testimonium Flavianum,

B How were they transmitted? 1) somewhere else : Laci Green likes strawmen?, 2) Variation on the Scriptoria Game,

Commenting Penn and Teller Video

28 janv. 2014
+Hans-Georg Lundahl The apostles can not be consider historians as they couldn't be objective, they had no historian background or other events that they have recorded as historians. Is as if I ask Eva Braun to be historian for Hitler. She would obviously write [not] objectively and always positive things
28 janv. 2014
+Hans-Georg Lundahl Historians that were alive when Jesus was alive and no one recorded his existance

Aulus GelliusPhilo-Judaeus
DamisPliny the Elder
Dio ChrysostomPliny the Younger
Dion PruseusPlutarch
EpictetusPompon Mela
Florus LuciusQuintilian
Justus of TiberiusSilius Italicus
LysiasTheon of Smyrna
MartialValerius Flaccus
PaterculusValerius Maximus
My answers
[Re :] "Historians that were alive when Jesus was alive."

Florus LuciusQuintilian
HermogonesQuintius Curtius

[Saw his comment first with last of these hidden. See below on comment part "Oh there were more of these" ...]

SENECA (whose brother is mentioned in the Bible) was no historian but a philosopher. Aulus Gellius was no historian but an early version of Readers Digest. Columella was no historian but wrote on Agriculture (including advice on how to treat slaves). Quintilian was no historian but wrote a treatise on Rhetoric. Quintius Curtius was actually on my list of historians ... whose texts are lost so we cannot tell if he mentions Jesus or not. Pliny the Elder was no historian but a natural historian - like the people in National Geographic. Pliny the Younger does mention Christians in his letters to Trajan. He was no historian but a letter writer, a historic source if you like. Here are his letters:

The Latin Library : Pliny

Plutarch was a historian of the history that was by then ancient. Like Medieval Historians [who live] today [OK, he did one man as recent as Julius Caesar]. Epictetus, like Seneca, was no historian but a philosopher. Petronius, like Aulus Gellius, was entertainment, in his case the kind of novel you could compare to Cider House Rules plus some added grossness. Philo Judaeus was no historian, and on top of that he represented Alexandrian Jews who were not accepting Christ and so may have avoided the topic for obvious reasons. Ptolemy was no historian but an astronomer [famously enough a Geocentric such - there were also others of the name]. Apollonius of Tyana was no historian but a rival of Christ. Persius was no historian any more than Walt Disney, he basically translated Aesop into Latin. Sorry, that was Phaedrus, and here is Persius:

Persius, in full Aulus Persius Flaccus (Volterra, 34–62), was a Roman poet and satirist of Etruscan origin. In his works, poems and satires, he shows a stoic wisdom and a strong criticism for the abuses of his contemporaries. His works, which became very popular in the Middle Ages, were published after his death by his friend and mentor the stoic philosopher Lucius Annaeus Cornutus.

Damis was to Apollonius what Plato was to Socrates and gospellers to Jesus. Dio Chrysostom was an essay writer and orator. Also historian in fact ... and partly lost. All historical works are lost:

Penelope, University of Chicago : Dio Chrysostom

Dio of Prusa is the same person and the historian that survives, Dio Cassius, is no contemporary. He certainly knew of Christians and yet does not mention (as far as I could tell) Christ in the book about Tiberius. Favorinus also was no contemporary, nor a historian. Florus Lucius was no contemporary either. Hermogenes, I suppose you mean the one of Tarsus, was also no contemporary but lived under Marcus Aurelius, an Emperor who persecuted Christians. There is another Hermogenes, also known as Hermagoras, who WAS contemporary, namely a Christian bishop of Aquileia:

Wiki : Hermagoras of Aquileia
(a k a Hermogenes)

Wiki : Hermogenes of Tarsus

Phlegon is another case where you have a contemporary who is a Christian and a Second Century Historian who is not, of the same name:

Wiki : Phlegon of Marathon

Wiki : Phlegon of Tralles

And Pomponius Mela is not a Historian, but a natural historian, a geographer:

Wiki : Pomponius Mela

Any more like those? Make my day! You are dealing here with a Classicist!

"The apostoles can not be consider historians as they couldn't be objective, they had no historian background or other events that they have recorded as historians. Is as if i ask Eva Braun to be historian for Hitler. She would obviously write objectively and always positive things"

Academic historians in the sense you are talking about did not exist back then. And Eva Braun would obviously be a credible witness to the fact that Hitler existed. And I suppose you mean "not write objectively", but nevertheless she would have been a credible witness to the fact that Hitler existed. One mistress of Mussolini in 1938 asked him when he changed his minds and became a racist, and he told her he had been so for at least seventeen years ... only that he did not express that politically until 1938 with Charta della Razza. She noted her question and his answer and is a good enough historian about that. It would however be a mistake to take him at his word when speaking to her, since before his mistress he wanted to come off as a very consistent man. But yes, Margherita Sarfatti's diaries are proof (and accepted as such) that Mussolini existed and was her lover:

[I think it was the next mistress who asked the question about Charta della Razza]

Oh, there were actually more of those?

Justus of Tiberias may or may not have mentioned Jesus, we do not know, his works are lost and were accessible to but not praised by Josephus. Juvenal was like Tacitus no contemporary and on top of that a poet no historian. A satirist. Asking him for evidence about either Jesus or Domitian is like asking why Erich Kaestner neither wrote about Hitler nor about the resistance [before 45, that is, as I learn from the wiki]. Lucan was a poet, but this time an epic one. Lucian was a satirist who is famous for writing the first Science Fiction, "A True Story" ... he also wrote "How to Write History" but he wrote no History himself:

Wiki : List of Works by Lucian

Lysias ... the writer if that name was a lawyer who lived in Athens well before all this, and the contemporary is mentioned in the Bible:

Claudius Lysias

Martial like Juvenalis was a satyrist writing verses. A bit like Doctor Zeuss. Also a bit too late - like Josephus.

Paterculus stops short just before the Public life of Jesus. He died before the Crucifixion.

Penelope, University of Chicago : Velleius Paterculus

[Here follow some where I simply copy paste from wiki, top lines about each, with link:]

Pausanias of Damascus

Pausanias of Damascus wrote in the last quarter of the 2nd century BC and composed the versified description of the ancient coastal regions that is commonly known as the work of Pseudo-Scymnus. [Note to : Diller, Aubrey (1955). "The Authors Named Pausanias". Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association 86: 268–279.]


Pausanias (geographer)

Manuscript (1485), of Pausanias' Description of Greece at the Laurentian Library. Pausanias (/pɔːˈseɪniəs/; Ancient Greek: Παυσανίας Pausanías) (c. AD 110 – AD 180)[1] was a Greek traveler and geographer of the 2nd century AD, who lived in the times of Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. He is famous for his Description of Greece (Ελλάδος περιήγησις), a lengthy work that describes ancient Greece from firsthand observations, and is a crucial link between classical literature and modern archaeology.

Silius Italicus, in full Tiberius Catius Asconius Silius Italicus (ca. 28 – ca. 103), was a Roman consul, orator, and Latin epic poet of the 1st century CE, (Silver Age of Latin literature). His only surviving work is the 17-book Punica, an epic poem about the Second Punic War and the longest surviving poem in Latin at over 12,000 lines.

Suetonius and Tacitus are neither of them contemporaries and we deal with them mentioning Christians being persecuted by Nero.

[Both Suetonius and Tacitus.]

Statius: Publius Papinius Statius (c. 45, in Naples – c. 96 AD, in Naples) was a Roman poet of the 1st century AD (Silver Age of Latin literature). Besides his poetry in Latin, which include an epic poem, the Thebaid, a collection of occasional poetry, the Silvae, and the unfinished epic, the Achilleid. He is also known for his appearance as a guide in the Purgatory section of Dante's epic poem The Divine Comedy.

Theon of Smyrna (Θέων ὁ Σμυρναῖος) (fl. 100 CE) was a Greek philosopher and mathematician, whose works were strongly influenced by the Pythagorean school of thought. His surviving On Mathematics Useful for the Understanding of Plato is an introductory survey of Greek mathematics.

Gaius Valerius Flaccus (Setinus Balbus) (died c. AD 90) was a Roman poet who flourished in the "Silver Age" under the emperors Vespasian and Titus and wrote a Latin Argonautica that owes a great deal to Apollonius of Rhodes' more famous epic.

Valerius Maximus was a Latin writer and author of a collection of historical anecdotes. He worked during the reign of Tiberius (14 AD to 37 AD).

Note that he was not a contemporary historian either.

Here he is:

The Latin Library : Valerius Maximus

Can you tell me why this factoid list is repeated so much?

Is it only Acharya or is there more like a whole Masonic lodge behind this? Or is it a quote from the film Zeitgeist?

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