Thursday, November 20, 2008

Answers to weberhome06



On Hierarchy and Apostolic Succession
On Christian life
Is it necessary to know for certain one is saved oneself?

On Veneration of Saints
About the Blessed Virgin and MOther of God, Mary
From Rosary to Prayer in General
Back to praying to saints subject
Holy Water and Doctors



On Hierarchy and Apostolic Succession:

Wrote weberhome06:

"But man-made successions aren't reliable, and should never be trusted by serious students of The Holy Bible;"



Writes I:

But the successions of Patriarchs and Kings adding up to Christ is somehow NOT man made? Be real: there is no claim it was revealed to someone not already knowing these facts, it has for source the man made reckonings of what father fathered what son, with the exception that the Bible does not say Joseph was physical father of Christ, which it would have if it had followed the human opinion of the then society. Even so it is by inside information - Tradition says St Luke interviewed the Holy Virgin - and not by some "God spoke to Moses" that this came into the Gospel. It is free from fault as the book of Kings or the book of Samuel is free from fault: the human collection of evidence does not automatically result in faults, and God saw to it that it was not so in these cases.

Wrote weberhome06:

" ... because even while the apostles were still alive, even in their own day, there were professing Christians already breaking away and starting apostate movements (e.g. Gal 1:6-9, 1Tim 1:3-4, 2Tim 2:15-18, 1John 2:18-19, Jud 1:17-19). Those early apostates could easily show that their own hierarchical successions connected to Peter; who was actually just a few steps away."


Writes I:

Unless of course St Peter's sees - Jerusalem, Antioch and Rome - refused to thus apostate or to communicate with the apostates. And unless these apostates lacked a succession of cheirotonia (laying on of hands) [going back to apostles]. Both of which are quite likely.
Wrote weberhome06:

"It's a historical fact that at one time there were no less than three different "infallible" popes all in power at the same time."


Writes I:

We know.

Wrote weberhome06:

"Did you know that there was a time in Rome's past when not every infallible Pope agreed that Peter was the rock about which Jesus spoke in Matt. 16:18? Yes, it's true, and I just wish I had the details at my fingertips but unfortunately they're buried somewhere in the archives of my past activities on message boards."



Writes I:

I know from desertres that St Augustine had two exegeses of the matter. The Peter is rock exegesis in controversy with Donatists (Donatus was a schismatic Roman anti-Pope a hundred years earlier, but Rome did not remain with Donatists), the Peter's faith is rock was accepted as a possible alternative when he wrote Retractationes.

Does not change fact that Christ added "and I shall give THEE the keys to the kingdom of heaven".

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On Christian life:
Is it necessary to be certain one will be saved oneself?

Wrote weberhome06:

"but is actually bad news indeed because their message-- although adequately announcing the reality of Divine retribution --fails to provide a guaranteed fail-safe, sin proof, commandment proof, God proof rescue from the wrath of God."


Writes I:

Why do you need THAT for good news?

Wrote weberhome06:

"Rescuers typically save people who are facing imminent death and/or grave danger and utterly helpless to do anything about it.

"I want you to think about something. Of what real benefit would the savior of Luke 2:8-12 really be to anybody if he couldn't guarantee a fail-safe, sin proof, commandment proof, human-error proof, God proof rescue from the wrath of God? He would be of no benefit at all; ergo: as a rescuer, Rome's savior is a plastic, incompetent ninny: a false hope."


Writes I:

Rescuers save those they can reach, but not all those who scramble into positions where they cannot be reached. And they save them from the death that is imminent, not from the one they will possibly face again next week by own stupidity, weakness or the cruelty of other men.

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Veneration of Saints

Wrote weberhome06:

"Unfortunately, patron saints compete with God for Man's spiritual affections; which is an intolerable situation since the Bible's God demands 100% of Man's religious devotion."


Writes I:

Only the spiritual one? Carnal devotions do not compete with the spiritual affections of man? Indeed they do.

"He who loveth father and mother more than me ..." NOT "He who loveth Moses and Eliah more than me"

Wrote weberhome06:

"It's far more likely the prayers of departed saints are for justice and vindication (e.g. Rev 6:10)."


Writes I:

But the vindication looked for in these prayers - says Catholic tradition - is the freedom and uprightness of the Church, i e what was granted (officially) by St Constantine, but what is always being redrawn at least unofficially. And a Christian persecuted by his own worldly worries or by sickness or invalidity would be as badly set for living freely as a Christian persecuted by Nero. Which is why prayers against the illfortunes that harrass us against our love for God are included in those prayers for vindication.

Indeed, Isaiah ch 35 says that blind seeing, deaf hearing, mute talking, lame walking is the revenge of God. It was the OT text last sunday.

[Wrote weberhome06 on worn big toe of St Peter's statue in Vatican.]

Writes I:

Big toe of Peter is so placed as to make it impossible to kiss Peter's face.

On ikons, usually it is the face or hands Catholics or Orthodox kiss, the feet only if it is the Christ or his Mother.

Wrote weberhome06:

"You see, when people love the Bible's God with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind, and with all their strength; then their *all is all used up and there's nothing left for Mary and the saints and angels."


Writes I:

How would you know?

Christ was friendly enough with the saints that surrounded him, and he accepted comfort from an angel twice: when having rejected Satan and when praying in Gethsemane. Also, when two angels showed him the instruments of his future torture he seeked comfort from his mother, as Christians should do.

Wrote weberhome06:

"It's only when people are estranged from God that they need statues, paintings, relics, intermediaries, architecture, artifacts, and garments to make them feel holy."


Writes I:

We do not need to feel holy.

Wrote weberhome06:

"Man invariably prefers to worship something he can either see, taste, touch, hear, or feel. That's why statues and paintings, and such, are so appealing. And the rosary too, because that's something people can hold in their own two hands."


Writes I:

True. So if God hates that about man, why did He take flesh?

Wrote weberhome06 (on the carven cherubim above the arc of covenant, that were inaccessible to the lay people):

"And the rule wasn't made to protect the angels; no, it was to protect God's sanctity because it was back in that inner sanctum where God met with his people-- not in the cherubims, but rather; between them."


Writes I:

And it is in the Church that we meet Christ again in the Penance and in the Eucharist, not in the ikons, but between them. And where we were reborn in baptism, not in the ikons, but between them.

Wrote weberhome06 on vindictive prayer, saying it was even there in the psalm quoted on the cross.

Writes I:

Christ on the Cross:

http://drbo.org/chapter/21021.htm

No imprecation against the persons of His persecutors. He was loyal to the people who crucified him through the hands of the godless. Only a prayer for deliverance.

As for ps 69 and 109, it is for monks and nuns to pray them, who can understand them spiritually.

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About the Blessed Virgin and Mother of God, Mary:

Wrote weberhome06:

"Since Rome teaches Jesus' mom was taken up "body and soul" then I believe there's justification to conclude that Rome's Mary would have been a viable human being at the moment of her alleged assumption because a body without a soul is a dead body; e.g. when God created Adam, his body lay on the ground as a corpse until God breathed into it the power of life; and it was then that Man became a sentient being (Gen 2:7). A body without its spirit, is a dead body; viz: a corpse (Jas 2:26). Would that objector really have us to believe that Rome's Mary went up to Heaven in two pieces: as a spirit and as a corpse?"


Writes I:

Full story: on her death bed she slept, but did not meet corruption. Her soul was immediately in the arms of her Son ,who descended. Her body was buried, but when St Thomas (who was absent again) wanted to take a farewell, there was only her belt left in her tomb. Her body too had risen and ascended to or rather been taken up to Heaven by her Son.

Writes I:

Precisely what objector are you talking about? Or are you lying together a strawman instead of your real objectors?

Had written weberhome06:

"First that objector said it wasn't a prayer; now they say it's not only a prayer, but a biblical prayer."


Wrote weberhome06:

" "Hail [Mary] full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" was plagiarized from Gabriel's greeting at Luke 1:28 (Douay-Rheims version)."


Writes I:

Why plagiarised? Is Gabriel suing the Church for copyright issues?

Wrote weberhome06:

" "blessed is the fruit of thy womb" was plagiarized from Elizabeth's greeting at Luke 1:42, (Douay-Rheims version)."


Writes I:

Is Elisabeth suing the Church for copyright issues?

Wrote weberhome06:

" "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is stated by the official Catechism of the Council of Trent to have been fabricated by the Church itself."


Writes I:

I think the Catechism of the Council of Trent uses the word ADDED.

In Gk Orthodox Church these words are a separate prayer, and the first two parts are even restated.

Why should the Church have any more qualms than King David about formulating prayers? Both were given - the Church on Pentecost - the Spirit who is a spirit of sonship and not of slavery.

Wrote weberhome06:

"The rosary isn't prayer; it's rote chanting and no more pleasing to God than a Hindu mantra."


and quoted:

Mtt 6:7-9 . .In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Writes I:

He also said: pray incessantly. A mantra and a Jesus prayer and a Hail Mary have this in common: they are NOT many words, but very few words incessantly (for the time allotted to it) repeated.

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From Rosary to prayer in general:

Wrote weberhome06:

"Jesus' command is not only a mandate, but also an appeal to reason. The Bible's God is already fully aware of your concerns before you even speak; so get down to business and spell them out candidly and intelligently rather than wasting His time repeating a published prayer over and over again and boring Him to tears with mindless chanting."


Writes I:

Bring to tears? Is it not boring to tears for the creator to see the sun rise every morning and set every evening? No, it is not, because God cannot be (as of being God) bored.

If you want to bore God to tears, the way to do it is by being bored when you pray, instead of being hopeful. And the spelling out clearly thing comes close to the real pagans in that area, who did really spell out their needs clearly to their gods.

Christ gave us a published set prayer, which is the main part of the Rosary (Irish for Rosary is Padreen, from Pader=Pater Noster), though it is only said six or sixteen times when praying the rosary.


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Back to praying to Saints:

Wrote weberhome06:

"There is not one single instance in the New Testament of either Jesus, or of his apostles, nor of any of the New Testament's authors, either teaching or encouraging, suggesting, or of leading by example, in prayers to people in the afterlife."


Writes I:

Actually one in the afterlife prayed to Him, at Transfiguration.

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Holy Water and doctors:

Wrote weberhome06:

"In the final analysis then; according to the principles of Num 19:22 and Hag 2:10-15, the very first person to come in physical contact with the holy water in the vestibule of a Catholic church destroys its holiness; and from then on, every person following the first person is made ritually unclean by reason of contact with the contaminated water."


Writes I:

As if the New Covenant had no greater powers than the Old, sigh ....

Wrote weberhome06:

"Objection: The contaminated waters of the Jordan River were sanctified by
Christ's physical entry."

That notion is a shoot-from-the-lip expedient; and was invented right out
of thin air, and is, of course, in violation of Moses' covenanted law.


and quoted:

<>Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of Yhvh your God that I enjoin upon you.

Writes I:

So the Sanctification of the Waters is an addition to Deuteronomium, though it was prefigured, but the whole new testament is still valid apart from that? The small things of the New Testament are impossible because they are not in the old law, but the big good news itself is not impossible? Neither the big nor the small are impossible if both come from God. Same applies to God's Church.

Wrote weberhome06:

"No one should be shocked that the New Testament's Jesus was willing to get down and dirty in order to be of service to his fellow Jewish countrymen. The New Testament's Jesus was not only a savior, but also a physician; and today, we would say that for doctors, contact with unsanitary conditions (e.g. disease) quite naturally "comes with the turf" just as naturally as professional welders have to submit themselves to hot metals and occassional burns in the performance of their duties."


Writes I:

Which I discovered early, and decided not to be a doctor. Of course, there are the men who are payed as doctors but refuse these conditions, like psychiatrists.

You may reply that they risk stabbing, but that is the risk of a soldier, and should be prepared for and motivated by juridical studies, not medical ones.

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4 comments:

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

taken from here

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

More specifically, from here

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

You need to scroll down from the second link to see where my posts interfoliate with and answer those of weberhome06. I have, so far only answered posts on that first page(=second link) but my notification was given on the last page (=first link).

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

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