Wednesday, November 26, 2008

...on Manichaeans

dhux quoted:

"Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims."

it should have read:

Manichaean heresy: a PSEUDO-Christian sect INDECENT enough to practice birth control (and thus not as RESPONSIBLE TO MAINTAINING THE POPULATION as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. BUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS SAVED FROM THEIR BIRTH-CONTROL!

Hans Georg Lundahl

Cathars - review of O'Shea's book
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 05/20/03 11:16 am
Msg: 25281 of 25288

I'll take your word for what the Cathars were, quoting your review of O' Shea's book. As far as logical consistency allows.

The Perfect Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars chronicles the Roman Catholic Church's crusade against--and ultimate annihilation of--the Albigenses, or Cathars, a group of heretical Christians who thrived in what is now the Languedoc region of Southern France.

Heretical, revolutionary: certainly.

The Cathars held revolutionary beliefs that threatened the authority of the church.

Not to mention ordinary decency...

The world, they maintained, was not created by a benevolent God. Rather, it was the creation of a force of darkness, immanent in all things.

In all material things, not in souls or spirits, mind you...

They considered worldly authority a fraud,

...reminds me a bit of Unabomber...

... and authority based on some divine sanction, such as claimed by the church, outright hypocrisy.

Why did they have a hierarchy of their own then?

The long and short of it: they regarded ALL worldly authority, ALL authority that was well established in this material world as evil, just as this material world itself. Instead of wasting your time sympathising with them for being exterminated, why not try imagining for a few moments even what a thoroughly Albigensian/Cathar sociaety would look like?

  • Do marriages propagate?
    What is propagation of the species according to Albigensian tenets?
    Trapping souls into a devil-made world.
    Is marriage good on Albigensian tenets?
    Obviously no.

  • Is the Church material, does it preach God became flesh?
    What is matter, what is flesh according to Albigensian tenets?
    Devil-made, evil.
    Does Albigensianism hate the Church for that reason?
    Obviously yes.

  • Does Church and State authority have effects in the material world?
    What can have effect in the material world on Albigensian tenets?
    Devil-made things.
    How does the Albigensian regard Church and State authority?
    As devil-made.
    Does one respect an authority which one regards as devil-made?
    Did the Albigensians inherently respect CHurch and State authority?
    Obviously no.
    What do we call men who respect no authority?
    Anarchists. Nihilists.
    What should Albigensians be regarded as?
    Anarchists, nihilists.

*** Innocent III, resolved to eradicate the Cathar threat to church authority, recruited the military powers of France, eager to expand their territory to the south. Together, they systematically exterminated the Cathars and their supporters in a series of crusades between 1209 and 1229. The Dominican-led Inquisition that ensued built upon this momentum of intolerance and tormented Europe for centuries to come.***

"Tormented Europe" - only if you identify Europe with nihilist worse than madmen Albigensians and the like!

Albigensians were vegetarians - think out the threat of a Europe where a butcher is treated as a criminal. That's one of the thing the Inquisition which "tormented Europe" saved Europe from!

You descend from Scots Calvinists, firhillfan, if I've got you right. Do you realise that even Calvin's Geneva would have been an extremely hot place for an Albigensian, had there been any still alive? Michel Servet was burned on Calvin's personal order. For denying Holy Trinity. (But you still think Knox' adherents did the right thing in killing Cardinal Beaton for burning a heretic, don't you?) He would hardly have been lenient on anyone saying the Devil made the Earth. Though his own "theology" of making God the "author of Judas' treason no less than Peter's repentance" makes the Creator responsible for people incurring the guilt of damnation, so Albigensianism or Calvinism are somehow akin.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Posted as a reply to: Msg 25263 by firhillfan

Re: Cathars - first hit
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 05/20/03 11:27 am
Msg: 25282 of 25288

" Cathars.

Cathars or Albigensians was the name given this particular heretical sect which flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries, mainly in Italy and regions of southern France. As with many of the heretical groups under study, the predominant source of information about them comes from the writings of their detractors, orthodox Christians. Cathars were dualists: they believed in both 'good' and 'evil' realms, associating the spiritual, intangible, and metaphysical with the 'good'; and, similarly, they equated material possesions and tangible belongings with 'evil'. As a result they led ascetic lifestyles; they acknowledged no sacraments, ate no meat, eggs, or cheese, and rejected the materiality of Jesus' birth, crucifixion, and death. The church's movement towards lavishness and grandeur in architecture and ceremony was repellent to Cathars; they preferred a simple, spiritual church. In the early thirteenth century some of them formed a conventional church under the leadership of Bishop Niketas.

Prior to the 12th century, the Catholic Church had no specific policy pertaining to heretics; it had always been up to each diocese. However, with the rise and growth of Catharism, the church assumed a formal and unilateral position against Cathars and other heretical groups. Beginning in the late 12th century, numerous military assaults were waged against known Cathars. Eventually, Pope Innocent III proclaimed a crusade against the Albigensians in 1209, and the resulting war, which brought most of southern France under the control of the French crown for the first time, effectively dismantled much of the regional Cathar infrastructure. The Inquisition, established thereafter, rooted out surviving practicing Cathars, so that at the turn of the 14th century, only fourteen prefects (the Cathar term for faithful and devout follower) remained."

I guess I forgot about these 14 survivors. ;-0

You have also forgotten about the many converts from Albigensian heresy.

Inquisition protocols state of penitent ex-heretic after penitent ex-heretic "iit in matrimonium" "he married".

Raymand of Toulouse was regarded as a very severe judge of heretics even for his own time. He tried some 900 cases. Some 45 (when I had the exact numbers I got it to about a twentieth, cannot remember if it was 1/19 or 1/21) he handed out to the secular arm, who were thereupon burned. He released more from the Inquisition's prisons than that.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Posted as a reply to: Msg 25258 by firhillfan

Cathars (correction of my reply)
by: hglundahl (34/M/Malmö) 05/20/03 12:26 pm
Msg: 25288 of 25288

When I said Raymond of Toulouse, I meant Bernard Gui, an Inquisitor of Toulouse known for certain harshness.

Between 1308 and 1323, in 18 sermones generales, he pronounced 930 sentences.

  • 132 impositions de la croix (required to wear penitential cross),

  • 9 pélérinages (pilgrimages),

  • 143 services en Terre Sainte ( Holy Land),

  • 307 emprisonnements,

  • 17 emprisonnements prononcés platoniquement contre des défunts (dead people sentenced to prison),

  • 42 REMISES AU BRAS SECULIERS (remitted to secular arm, burned),

  • 3 rémises theoriques des défunts (theoretically remitted after death),

  • 69 exhumations,

  • 40 sentences de contumaces (to be carried out if caught),

  • 2 expositions à pilori,

  • 2 dégradations (from priestly office),

  • 1 exil,

  • 22 destructions des maisons (...of houses),

  • 1 Talmud brulé (burning of one Talmud).

  • Enfin 139 sentences ordonnaient l'élargissements des prisonniers (prisoners set at large).


Documents pour servir à l'histoire de l'Inquisition dans Languedoc.
2 vol. in octavo, Paris 1900.

Dictionnaire Apologétique de la Foi Catholique

Posted as a reply to: Msg 25258 by firhillfan

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