... mainly on Christianity versus Islam (though originally other question on quora)

Question:

How do I study subversive/complex subjects?

Comment (which I did not read before answering)

I read recently an article on food sovereignty. A good way to organize my “subversive cases” is to look up for large themes like “poverty”, “lobbies”, “hunger”, “aids”…Do you have any advice about:

• Websites and credible sources of info (books, documentaries)?
• Ideas of themes and subjects?

Thanks.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Go to my blogs. There are plenty of them there!

Other blogs, same writer
[On an English, debate centred and republish blog called Assorted Retorts]
http://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/p/other-blogs-same-writer.html

Abdallah Alaoui

I…LOVE your blog! However…It shows a really bad sense of presentation and organisation. thus, its is difficult for me to get what I am looking for. Could you be kind enough to point me in the right direction (or better yet, create a list)? Thank you.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You know, the page I linked to actually IS precisely a LIST of my blogs.

Abdallah Alaoui

ok. thank you. However, it’d be abetter read if you organized it by theme and not by user names. Still… c’est sympa de ta part.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

What exactly do you mean “user names”?

[Actually it is very simple, he had perhaps clicked blog header after seeing page and seen that the main page of the blog - or even the one I linked to - actually does organise the posts by usernames of those I debate with or comment on. If he finds my comments on AronRa's videos good, he can click the label for AronRa, if he finds my debates with Sjordal good, he can find more debates with Sjordal by clicking that link - I thought he meant the list of blogs, where user name is no issue, but theme and language and previously written elsewhere (FB, correspondence, debates on forums and youtube or on the now extinct site Antimodernism)]

Abdallah Alaoui

Cependant, si tu permets…Tu te trompes par rapport à l’islam. Jesus n’est “qu’un prophète”. C’est en cela que le message de l’islam diffère principalement. L’unicité de Dieu n’est pas à galvauder à travers des théories qui ne reposent pas sur les dires-mêmes de Jésus (mais uniquement de ses apôtres). Evidemment, je ne pense pas pouvoir te convertir à travers un argument aussi simpliste et facilement réfutable. Cependant, je t’invite à approfondir ta connaissance de l’islam à travers la biographie du prophète, et l’exégèse du Coran. Un livre que personne n’a su imiter en 1400 ans (vrai que les arabes ne sont pas forts partout mais en termes de littérature…) qui répond à toutes les interrogations et dont pas un seul verset n’a été contredit dans les FAITS (et non dans la cultures et les opinions changeantes des hommes selon les époques)… tu reconnaitras toi-même que la bible a été “manipulée” contrairement au Coran. evidemment, tu crois en une version et es absolument persuadé (c’est ton droit) mais je préfère croire en un livre que Dieu lui-même s’est engagé à protéger de toute modification. Il est vrai que comme d’autres religions, les hommes se sont divisés et créé différents courants mais nous avons un SEUL livre. Je pense que c’est une preuve plus ou moins concrète de la vérité. Anyway, c’est un message cordial de religieux à religieux. cela demande du courage que de remettre en questions ses convictions et je ne te demande que quelques heures de lecture. Après, cela reste évidemment ton choix.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

You changed the subject.

I have organised NOTHING on my blogs according to “user name”.

My list of blogs has so far exactly ONE user (oh, wait, the blog it was on actually has a list of youtube users I have debated - if that is what you meant, search theme in search bar, it is usually in the title of each debate).

As for Jesus, I certainly believe more what his OWN disciples said about His words, who had listened to Him for 3 years, than what someone else said 600 years later.

Abdallah Alaoui

…Mohamed (Peace be upon him) also had companions (who lived with him for…23 years) . Their sayings about what he said and did is the second core of Islam after the Koran. Please don’t turn this into a heated debate about who’s wrong. I encourage you to read just as I encourage myself to read about other religions. Also, you doubt that he came with truth 600 years after christianity, but you do believe that jesus came many more years after judaism…

Hans-Georg Lundahl

I believe these companions recorded what Mohammed did, why don’t you believe that the companions of Jesus recorded what He did?

The difference, what Mohammed did, according to YOUR OWN story, doesn’t prove he was a prophet from God.

What Jesus did, according to OUR story, does prove He was more than just a prophet, He was God in the flesh.

Abdallah Alaoui

Please read more about islam. I will do the same. bye.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

Feel free to.

But one more thing.

Compare the biography of Mohammed as given by his companions, to that of Joseph Smith, as given by his.

“Mohammed was a prophet of God because Jibreel appeared and told him so.”

Well, Joseph Smith also met an angel called Moroni.

“Mohammed was a prophet of God because his followers believed it.”

Well, Joseph Smith’s followers believed he was a prophet of God.

“Mohammed was a prophet of God because he led his men to military victories”

Well, to change the comparison a bit, Odin, a man who fooled poor Swedes he was a god and had been around creating the world even, gave his followers a lot of victories, or at least they got victories WHEN invoking him.

None of these things proves Mohammed was a prophet of God.

Jesus made water into wine, rebuked the devil, not just in solitude when He was tempted, but many times over again while exorcising, and he cured blind, lame, deaf and dumb and lepers.

Mohammed, Joseph Smith and Odin all of them did none of these things.

Abdallah Alaoui

It is a good argument.

However…Here is the thing as seen by muslims.

It is true that Mohammed did not come with “flashy” miracles (remember that we muslims also do believe in Jesus being the prophet of God and His verb). But we do consider that he is the last prophet for many reasons:

• He said it :)
• You should know (coz you’ve been showing a consistent general knowledge about the ancient times) that at the time, there were numerous christian, jewish and polytheist tribes constantly at war. Constantly. To unify all of them (trough the word ans the sword, we don’t deny that although the word has always been used first) is nothing short of a miracle. In a mere 20 years. By a man who’s been alone at first, and known for his honesty and integrity and kindness well before the prophecy.
• I read some of your replies on your blog. in one of them, you “reproach” to the jews that they’ve clinged to their religion as the original one and that they didn’t recognise Jesus as a prophet because he came many years after Moses and Abraham. How is that different from christians not recognising Mohammed? It is exactly the same scenario, as Mohammed came to “correct” the religion of people ( coz just like the jews, christians have modified it). Remember I am speaking from a muslim perspective.
• Now I would like to introduce three theological arguments. The first one is that even as a christian, you must know AND believe that victory can only come from God and no one else. Thus, as I said before, a “miraculous” series of victories which led to a far more large and durable expansion of islam than Joseph Smith or Odin :) is an act of God. No one else.
• Secondly, Jesus never said he was the last prophet. mohamed did. We did see a “true” religion (as it is complete and accurate and in a word, godly) emerge after christianity. However, there wasn’t one after Mohammed. Please bear in mind that I am talking about a monotheist religion, and not some “minor” beliefs or movements.
• Thirdly, It is not really theological but still… You know that you, and I, as humans, cannot encompass the truth of the creation. We must believe, but not blindly. We must believe with reason So here is the thing. I believe I am right, as you do believe you’re right. This is faith. We do try (on a certain level even though it is not our main goal) to convice each other of our truths. I will read about christianity and I urge you to do the same about islam. Why? Because if you are right and I am wrong, the I can meet God and tell him “Ok, I was wrong but I really tried”. In islam, God may forgive EVERY sin but atheism and polytheism (which is the case in Christianity even though I know that it is more subtle than that and that three is one as one is three). Thus, if I am right and you’re wrong, you may not be rewarded with His mercy if you didn’t really try to read all there is to read.

What I want to say is that… Islam does perfectly explain all here is to explain about the two other religions. it does appeal to reason. I just want you to read the Quran at least one time (if possible, its explanation) . After that, it is of course, your freedom of thought and choice, which is I believe, as important in Christianity than it is in Islam. Either way, may God guide us on the straight path. Give me an amen :)

Hans-Georg Lundahl

"in one of them, you “reproach” to the jews that they’ve clinged to their religion as the original one and that they didn’t recognise Jesus as a prophet because he came many years after Moses and Abraham."

Would you mind linking to [that] one of them?

I actually did NOT attribute their rejection, nor relate my reproach, to anything in Christ's case being a radical reinterpretation of who Moses of the Prophets were.

2000 years after Abraham, He agrees well with the Jews on who Abraham was.

600 years after Him, Mohammed does NOT agree with us (or with the Jews) about who He was (and is). That is different.

"It is exactly the same scenario, as Mohammed came to “correct” the religion of people ( coz just like the jews, christians have modified it)."

Christ reproached "Jews" (a name for his adversaries He did not use until they had betrayed Him to Pilate) for reinterpreting how laws are applied and for making reproaches not in accordance with what their texts said they ought to believe.

While we do say Jews have moodified some passages in the case where their version disagrees from Septuagint, and even from Vulgate, that is only VERY few passages - and the reproach was not made by Him. Protestants usually don't make it, or restrict the number of passages involved.

So, He did not say they had falsified their Scriptures, but that they were nullifying their content by the "fatwas" of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees (two of the categories within the Jewsih nation which became involved in the rejection of Him which later is called "Jewish").

And each time He reproached Pharisees for misapplying laws or Sadducees for disbelieving facts, He cited the Old Testament - in passages which the Jews have kept un-falsified to this day.

When Mohammed reproached us falsifying the content of our religion, he NEVER quoted exact passages of the New Testament or even of the Old Testament. He only purported to prophecy (Surah 5) what Jesus will say to us, when He comes to the Judgement day.

The reproaches of Jesus were those of a scholar in their own religion (the parents of those rejecting Him had admired His answers in the temple, when He was 12), the reproaches of Mohammed to us are those of a prophet of another religion.

So, if you can link to where I am supposed to have said what you just said I said, do so!

"The first one is that even as a christian, you must know AND believe that victory can only come from God and no one else."

Our doctrine of providence says that everything that happens either happens because God wants it exactly like that, or because God allows it, due to certain circumstances. Military victories are of BOTH types. Constantine has founded a Christendom, a community of Christian states, by making his one state a Christian state. And from 313 Ponte Milvio to today, there is a Christendom. Clovis founded a Barbarian Kingdom that was no longer Barbarian but heir to Roman Christendom by his victory at Tolbiacum - and France, BeNeLux, Switerland, Germany, Austria are to this day still part of Western Christendom. Both of these victories are more durable than those of Mohammed, because if Ponte Milvio was in 313, and Tobiacum in 496 or 506, the victories of Mohammed are all after the Hejira in 622.

But even so, no battle is totally durable before that of Harmageddon.

"Thus, as I said before, a “miraculous” series of victories which led to a far more large and durable expansion of islam than Joseph Smith or Odin :) is an act of God. No one else."

It's an act that God allowed, but not a miracle.

"Secondly, Jesus never said he was the last prophet. mohamed did."

Jesus never said He "was the last prophet" because He claimed to be more than just a prophet. He DID however say that His "ummah" (called ecclesia in Greek and Latin and Church in English) was the last "ummah" approved by Him. Where exactly so?

Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 28
http://drbo.org/chapter/47028.htm
[16] And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Note last verse : ALL days. This is incompatible with Muslim claim that Christian ummah had been modified before Mohammed's prophecy restored it, it is incompatible with Joseph Smith's claim that Apostolic Church had disappeared by "the great apostasy" before Joseph Smith restored it by his prophecy AND it is incompatible with the Protestant claim (or commonest such) that Catholic Church had become apostate gradually, so it needed a Reformation to become again (in the parts which became Protestant communities) a Christian Church.

“ Islam does perfectly explain all here is to explain about the two other religions. it does appeal to reason.”

Only to those who neglect what is really there in Judaism and Christianity.

“ I just want you to read the Quran at least one time (if possible, its explanation)”

No thanks, I read Surah 5 in school and some more, it proves that Mohammed was not a Christian prophet like St Bridget.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

“even though I know that it is more subtle than that and that three is one as one is three”

We never pretend these numbers are equivalent!

We DO say that ONE God (and that is one example of one type of being there is only one example of because all other beings are of types created by that one) is THREE Persons (meaning God is neither lonely nor self satisfied, each person was perfectly happy with the other two all eternity before creating the world).