Monday, August 14, 2017

... on Varied Retelling of Myths (starring Jackson Crawford)

Canon, "Fanon," and Variation in Norse Myth
Jackson Crawford

General sounding on general presentation:

Would you agree the present account of Rabenschlacht at least contains an element of fan fic in making Ermanerik and Theoderik meet?

Or could one of the two be homonyme, or other sources be wrong to separate them a century?

Anyway, that is the kind of variations I think tradition going wild is likely to submit accounts to. Rabenschlacht does not make Theoderik a great scholar (hint : Boethius is very distinct from Theoderik, even if contemporary). It does not make Ermanerik a saint able to raise the dead.

And you would agree historical Ermanerik and Theoderik were also warriors, as presented in Rabenschlacht?

[No answer, so far.]

Jackson Crawford makes a parallel with Christian denominations, my responses:

4:02 "most denominations" = Protestants, who are not most Christians.

4:27 beliefs : Protestant views of Sacraments and Modernist views of exegesis are off-limit.

4:38 Old Believers in Russia and Armenians are basically Catholics in sacrament theology.

In Real Presence, Armenians denying it are "odd man out", but therein also unfaithful to their own past : formerly one monk of theirs condemned the Thondrakian heresy due to among other things them denying it.

On other issues, Thondrakians were a bit more Catholic, since not considering certain sacramentals necessary.

Most issues, however, Thondrakians give an impression of in between Albigensian and Protestant.

[Sorry, Tondrakians, I think?]

4:53 Position of Hail Mary and exact wording varies between Catholics in Poland and Old Believers, but both have such - unlike most Protestant denominations. Both reflect the position All Generations shall call Her blessed, she was raised body and soul to Heaven and intercedes for us along with Her Son.

I think similar observations could be made about even Armenians and Nestorians, though the latter would obviously not have the added prayer "Holy Mary, Mother of God ..." (still a separate one among Orthodox, optionally useful as such for RC too) or the Orthodox rephrasing Theotoke Parthene Khaire. On Her, they would be the odd man out - but less so than Protestants.

5:15 "most Christians" or "most Evangelical Christians" think of both Heaven and Hell as both permanent and direct destinations?

No Catholics think of Heaven as automatically direct, they would consider those who go directly there without passing through Purgatory are fewer and better than the rest. Of the saved.

Variations in "Hell as permanent" would be confusions between Hell and Purgatory (both being unpleasant places in Sheol/Hades).

However, some Orthodox prefer thinking of soulsleep, and also ironically accuse John XXII for having been momentarily heretic - for agreeing with their theory on soul sleep. Giving real presence of sould and body in Heaven or Hell a postponement up to Doomsday.

Nevertheless, they also pray for the dead, probably because a prayer for someone not yet known to be saved or damned by us, can be taken into account by God who sees all time from an aeternal present.

Hence, that difference makes little practical difference, compared to Protestants saying "you don't need a lot of monks praying when you are dead".

5:39 Since last sentence in Creed is "et in carnis resurrectionem", it is de fide certain Heaven and Hell are local, not just states, and will contain risen bodies as well as our spirits.

Back to concept of myth:

6:15 "myth" is a very ambiguous word.

Its basic Greek meaning is "narrative" or "storyline".

The myth of Persai by Aischylos is not just historic, but undisputedly so, it is just in fleshing out that he had poetic liberty.

As a Christian I cannot give same truth value to a myth of Uranus and Gaea or Muspelheim and Niflheim being separated by Ginnungagap as to myth of Ulysses returning or of Sigurd getting killed by a brother-in-law or by a vassal of the royal b-i-l. The latter seem fairly likely.

And as to there being variations, that is minor distortions of original story, true or false. Diversity of fleshing out or forgetting part and replacing with fleshing out.

Obviously, I equally am not giving equal truth value to Odin, Vile and Vé killing Ymer and creating Earth as to Odin and a few others (probably Thor, certainly Njord and Frey) appearing in Uppsala region and founding a dynasty.

Example of extreme variation, supposed demotion of Zeus to Tyr:

7:20 Tyr = Zeus, a possible linguistic cognate, but could be mistaken, and name could refer to diverse real life persons (a king banishing his father from Crete to Italy, a man accompanying Odin to Uppsala) even if same name.

Does not prove a major variation over time in myth.

Codex Regius vs Edda = var over time (possibly), but either vs PIE myth depends on reconstruction of there being one.

Pre-Odinist religion best attested is Nerthus worship - no trace of IE connection, that I know, and Njord may back then have been her priestess.

NB, if the commonly accepted etymology is right, Tyr, or Tiwas, is Lith. Dievas.

What if instead it was a loan from Lith. Tewas (father)?

[Jackson Crawford later agrees we have no fool proof argument Tyr actually was previously Zeus.]

No comments: