Here is a video with atheistic apologetics:
Christianity's Biggest Problem
8th March 2021 | CosmicSkeptic
Here is a dialogue, starting with my on topic answer, but gliding away from it:
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- Answered as to Autumn Lauber's hamster's cancer.
It got cancer:
* because Adam sinned
* so Autumn Lauber and her viewers could see there is a problem with sin, it's not hunky dory ... they are the innocent collateral victims most people won't rationalise away, unlike for instance civilians when militaries bomb other things than troops and weapons and a bit more like those. They are the innocent collateral victims that make us see sin hurts.
How many suffer is not relevant for the suffering as such.
It may in many cases be relevant for the guilt of the one inflicting it, but it's not relevant for what the suffering is.
You gave a one sided view of animals' lives, and most of their days are fairly happy, and they do not when seeing predators think "yesterday too, not again!" as we would.
- chris sonofpear1
- @Hans-Georg Lundahl Why was Adam in a position to make that choice, especially for people not yet born - and not knowing the wider stakes? Or that he could even 'give' Satan anything, still less a world? I have no indication he even knew Satan existed, nor what death was. And sin began even earlier, than that, in heaven. Why too, was Adam trusted with less knowledge than Satan, and why would Satan ever, ever retain powers, post exile...
Also, was the lives of many medieval Spanish Jews, say, 'happy'...?
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @chris sonofpear1 I'll try to enumerate all.
1a ) Why was Adam in a position to make that choice, especially for people not yet born ...
Because he was the first man. Mankind, unlike angels, are social beings beginning with one family beginning with one man, and his choices count.
1b) - and not knowing the wider stakes?
He did, since God had told him they would die same day as eating of the forbidden tree (same 1000 years, not same 24 hours, or they began to die that same not 24 hours but even same hour).
2) Or that he could even 'give' Satan anything, still less a world?
Because he was the first man, see 1a above.
3) I have no indication he even knew Satan existed, nor what death was.
He knew Who God was Whom he was disobeying and God would have given a sufficient indication of what death was for His warning not to be incomprehensible.
4) And sin began even earlier, than that, in heaven.
Yes, but as man, not angels, were meant to rule the earthly creation, that would have had no impact on any animal, had Adam not sinned.
5) Why too, was Adam trusted with less knowledge than Satan,
Adam was a man, beginning to learn things from God. Satan was an angel, having learnt lots and lots and lots in one single instant - one reason why his sin was unforgiveable, unlike Adam's.
6) and why would Satan ever, ever retain powers, post exile...
Because the powers were part of his nature. Also, God doesn't allow him to use all of them, by far.
7) Also, was the lives of many medieval Spanish Jews, say, 'happy'...?
If you take medieval adequately, I'd say yes, except in times of pogrom like excitements. There was a flourishing community of Marranos, then they got targetted by pogroms by people calling "fake conversion" and then the Inquisition started to protect bona fide Marranos from lynch mobs. Two people of the Turrecremata/Torquemada family, uncle and nephew, got involved, since they were Marranos. Uncle Turrecremata stopped a pogrom. Torquemada started the Inquisition I named since the expulsion of Jews made suspicions of fake conversions even more burning than ever before.
- chris sonofpear1
- @Hans-Georg Lundahl And does Jesus' choices, count, too? And the LACK OF CHOICES he made about the future, churches, leadership, curses, antisemitism, interpretation, and his pissing off to a cloud after not even spending one YEAR as 'King' of anything? And with no idea of good, or evil, how is obedience conceived or framed as? And with no idea of death, how is a death a deterrent, to Eve or Adam.
And yes, we are VERY unlike angels, who all got to 'chose' at once, with no impairments, no special legalism about a first one of them, and no passed on curse, or sin nature, and no stolen knowledge removed from them, pre birth. And even the rebel ones kept most of that, whilst exercising their free will on our planet. Why not give them their own?
And just worshipping another God is often deemed unforgivable, by many, or detestable - whereas taking no responsibility for competing with other versions of Yourself as a God, and abandoning the Jewish people, and others, is just peachy, I guess.
And you prove to me, what powers Satan cannot use. Specifics - not inferred from the Book. Posing as a being of light on a whole species CRIPPLED form before birth is pretty serious enough. What does 'spiritual death' mean, again? Dead to which, or how many spirits. Or could it be, only, dead, to the 'right' one?
Don't forget the Principalities too, angels, or spirits, that some might interpret, from the older testament, that Jehovah had rivalries with, yet steered or influenced whole nations.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- @chris sonofpear1 "And the LACK OF CHOICES he made about the future, churches, leadership, curses, antisemitism, interpretation"
He very much did chose the Catholic Church. He founded it on 12 disciples and first of them Simon Peter.
@chris sonofpear1 "Or could it be, only, dead, to the 'right' one?"
@chris sonofpear1 "abandoning the Jewish people,"
There are Jewish, Samarian and Galilaean Catholics called Palestinians
@chris sonofpear1 "And yes, we are VERY unlike angels, who all got to 'chose' at once, with no impairments, no special legalism about a first one of them, and no passed on curse, or sin nature,"
Meaning, obviously, once they have chosen, they have no chance to repent.
"and no stolen knowledge removed from them, pre birth."
Neither have we.
"And even the rebel ones kept most of that, whilst exercising their free will on our planet."
Globe. Earth is not a planet.
A man also exercises free will while active, which is when alive, before his test is ended.
Angels also do so after their test ended, and that means, we don't just have Satan against us, but also St. Michael for us.
"And you prove to me, what powers Satan cannot use."
Demons are poltergeists on occasion, and when Sor Eusebia Palomino Yenes just prayed 3 Hail Mary's, the poltergeist had to leave before the ordained exorcist arrived (on two separate occasions).
"Specifics - not inferred from the Book."
Why not inferred from the Book? Do you have reasons to doubt what happened in the life of Job, when Satan had to ask for permission before each test and had to leave when God stopped his harrassment after 40 years?
Principalities were given nations as guardian angels. Unfallen ones.
There are also fallen ones, but "principalities" doesn't per se mean that just bec. St. Paul once uses the word referring to those.
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