Tuesday, September 14, 2021

FFAF - Trent Horn takes on Narcissists with a Psychologist

FFAF - Trent Horn takes on Narcissists with a Psychologist · Richard Greene Continued

FFAF: How to spot (and handle) a narcissist
10th Sept. 2021 | The Counsel of Trent

" the vice of narcissism."

Excuse me, but is there a Bible passage uniformly so read by Church Fathers that makes "narcissism" a vice or even a thing?

"people who score really high on a scale"

Doesn't seem to be the Christian view of vices. There are limits, not cumulative high scores.

"it's a personality disorder"

Doesn't seem to be the Christian view of vices either.

Pat Aherne
Of course you are right. Look along the demoniac story in the bible to get the source of narcissism. But there is a cross over with modern psychology.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Pat Aherne I think one would do a very good job to distinguish between what exorcists would want to call demonic and what psychologists are likely to call narcissistic.

I therefore think, the cross over means there is a conflict of how you judge people and that priests who are taught modern psychology by that fact are taught a heretical way of judging people.

"won't take responsibility for lack of empathy which ..."

Case a and case b ... are you saying Jesus scourging merchants in the temple and Job telling his friends he actually didn't deserve his misfortunes are the overt and the covert narcissist?

Clint Resler
I would say if you took that statement by itself, you could come to that conclusion, but at the beginning of the video the overarching context you have to take that in is that what drives the narcissist is an inordinate love of self. We know exactly why Christ did what he did, out of zeal for his Father's house. So, I would say no, Christ was not an overt narcissist. I would even argue that Christ knew well that this wouldn't go well for him, but did it anyway as an example of driving out that which doesn't belong.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Clint Resler But "inordinate love of self" is a secret motivation, just as ordinate love of self after God is.

The video was about spotting the Narcissist, not about being a Father confessor to someone confessing to that. Or about being God who scrutinises heart and kidneys.

Kaimuri Magu
@Hans-Georg Lundahl we, Christ being the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Incarnate God, I don't see how He can be accused of inordinate self-love, being Love Itself

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Kaimuri Magu I would say, the Pharisees did not know that and at least did not start out knowing that.

The problem is, with the rules given here for spotting a narcissist, and considering Christ STARTED His carreer by driving out merchants from the temple, how would they not consider Him a narcissist?

My point is not against Christ, my point is not to adopt the rules by which the Pharisees rejected Him.

We do know from His promises, Christ Himself is not the only one they go after, so, we can count on them doing similar things to Christians.

Hence my concern that a very recent obsession with "narcissism" - spotting it, dealing with others having it and so on - could be one stage in a persecution against Christians.

So, once again, little rabbi from Babel on visit to Jerusalem has just paid what he needs to get a sacrificial animal, and in comes Jesus with a whip, and he can't make his sacrifice. How is this little rabbi to know - on your rules for narcissism - that Jesus was NOT a narcissist?

Richard Greene
@Hans-Georg Lundahl I have read your posts, and I am trying to understand you. I believe that you misunderstand what narcissism is. I don't think you realize that it is a disorder. It's not about someone presuming a big ego (we are all guilty of that to some extent). Narcissists have an organic lack. They lack empathy, and they have no remorse. They can never fulfill this lack. So, if you are thinking about the word "narcissistic" as we use it in casual context to describe someone with a big ego, you are wrong. It is a psychological diagnosis.

I can't make sense of your temple analogy, either. In the time of Christ, no one knew what narcissism was. Just like the bible says, they thought Jesus was a blasphemer. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter whether they came to believe Jesus or not by the time he turned over the tables in the temple. Just like thousands of Jews later, their chance to believe came when Jesus rose from the dead. And that certainly is not a sign of a blasphemer...nor even a narcissist.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Richard Greene My point is, the psychological diagnosis pretends to read hearts and kidneys.

Men can't do that.

Hence, what you call narcissism cannot be diagnosed. When people nevertheless do so, they risk calling people narcissists just bc they have a big ego and on occasion refuse to let empathy stop what they are doing.

Sorry I read only first paragraph, but people telling me I misunderstand when they show they didn't understand my point exasperate me.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@Richard Greene "In the time of Christ, no one knew what narcissism was."

Not even the apostles?

Bc, St. Thomas says that the first bishops of the Church, the apostles, were given ALL knowledge necessary for the care of souls.

This means, discoveries in "psychology" or "psychiatry" made since their days are highly suspect of simply being heresies in moral theology.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"It doesn't matter whether they came to believe Jesus or not by the time he turned over the tables in the temple."

He did so twice, beginning and end of His public ministry, and both times He was explicit about having a theological rationale.

"Just like thousands of Jews later, their chance to believe came when Jesus rose from the dead. And that certainly is not a sign of a blasphemer...nor even a narcissist."

Most people don't rise from the dead in this time, only after Christ returns. Most people also don't have 100's of disciples to defend them against being mistreated as either blasphemer or narcissist. Therefore it does matter for most people whether the shrink concerned with them would have been one who'd have perhaps called Our Lord a blasphemer on such an occasion - btw, in Matthew 21, they didn't. In Mark 11, they didn't. In Luke 19 they didn't, that being the second time. In John 2, first time, He prophesied about His resurrection, but the ones hearing Him did not call it blasphemy then and there.

Continued with Richard Greene here: Richard Greene Continued

"psychology is missing a part of the human person"

... or is it a heresy about the human person?

Suppose narcissism is a real thing about real humans, where do you find it in the Bible? Where do you find it in either Prima Secundae or Secundae Secundae of the Summe Theologiae?

19:17 Here Trent is speaking of the vices of pride and jealousy.

The extreme pride of Satan.

Obviously, one in five being a narcissist as a personality disorder doesn't match one in five being proud as Satan, at all.

There are however some sects that deny the difference between venial and mortal sins, and within each also the difference of degrees between sins.

To these, a mild vanity, and they are willing to pretend non-vanities vain, would be "before God's standard of holiness" the equivalent of the pride of Satan.

Could the diagnosis "narcissism" come from such sects? I think so.

Would they react differently to shepherd little David offering to combat Goliath, or to Child Jesus getting praise from all of their elders at age 12 in the temple?

some guys seem to have spotted the same problem:

Jake Kelly
How can a narcissist be a good Catholic?

Patrick William
That is an interesting question! I don't think they could ever be "good" in the sense of being truly humble, truly charitable etc, but they might outwardly appear to be a "good" person. For example, it seems narcissism would be incompatible with a love of God - i.e. submitting yourself to God - but some narcissists see in God something they admire and think that they can have some of what God has; They idealise Him and try to introject "God-ness" into themselves so that others will admire them. Really they are only using God to elevate themselves rather than truly serving Him, but unless you were digging down, superficially it could look like they were "good".

@Patrick William sure bud. They're just evil people with no hope of redeeming. Sounds legit. Narcissists can't be saved! It should be in the creeds to save us time! Now that this podcast has taught us how to spot em, why bother even sharing the gospel with them?

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