Monday, January 17, 2022

Matthew 6:7 and the Rosary

Does Jesus DISLIKE Repetitive Prayers, Like the Rosary? w/ Jimmy Akin
17th Jan. 2022 | Pints With Aquinas

[What does the reference to pagan prayers mean?]

For context what pagan prayers that "stammer" are like, take a look at one from the sixteenth year of Tiberius, end of Velleius Paterculus' Roman History, book II. He ends it with a prayer and he really can't make up his mind which divinity to adress and what exact words to use. B U T there are no verbatim repetitions in it.

It's not particularly long either. Wordy, yes, long, no. The Vulgate has "many words" ...

But yes, explanations like to potentially unfriendly strangers, that is there in Velleius' prayer to the gods.

Timestamp 0:19 "The Greek term is not properly translated vain repetitions."
I agree with Jimmy, Matthew 6:7 when properly translated talks about lengthy prayer not repetition (Timestamp 0:46), which is why Jesus when he gives an example on how to prayer gives a short but sweet 58 word example.
Note: no Catholic translation uses the word repetition in Matthew 6:7

However, Sirach 7:14 explicitly talks against repetition in prayer!
et non iteres verbum in oratione tua (Vulgate)
"Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer." (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
"Do not babble in the assembly of the elders or repeat the words of your prayer." (New American Bible (Revised Edition))
"Do not babble on in the assembly of the elders, and in your prayers do not repeat yourself" (New Catholic Bible)
"Do not thou be a jangler [or full of words] in the multitude of priests; and rehearse thou not a word in thy prayer." (Wycliffe)

I wonder how Catholics will try to escape the plain meaning of this verse? since they have to accept the apocrypha

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@YAJUN YUAN It does not say "repeat not a prayer" but "repeat not the word in thy prayer, more especially "deuteroo" means specifically doubling - not tripling.

And since all repeated prayers are repeated to make a minimum of three occurrences, and since it's only angels (and the Church citing them) that repeat a single word (holy said three times, not just twice), we are fair on this one.

By the way, I disagree about "lengthy" it is about wordy. The point being if a pagan had written Our Father, it could have omitted petitions about forgiveness and protection from temptation and still been twice as long as the actual Lord's Prayer from all explanations given to back up the requests, but it would not have been as lengthy as repeating Our Father ten times.

I think both injunctions are about speaking with confidence, like no "as ... ? ... as we forgive" and so on.

Lengthy per se and repetition of whole prayers are not mentioned.

The Haydock comment seems to mean one should not de facto repeat by synonyms "as we forgive and pardon" and so on ...

@Hans-Georg Lundahl 'It does not say "repeat not a prayer" but "repeat not the word in thy prayer"'
Sure, I'm not saying that you cannot use the same prayers again e.g. you could pray the Lord's prayer once per day. But I'm saying in a single prayer do not repeat yourself, in the Rosary I count 6x, 6x, 53x repetitions.

Not sure what you mean by angels, but I don't think Revelation 4:8 is a prayer because one the text doesn't use the word prayer and second there is no petition or intercession. I consider it an act of praise or worship.

Sirach 7:14 says
1) Don't be full of words (noli verbosus esse) - not against Rosary
2) Don't repeat (or rehearse) the sentences (non iteres verbum) - specifically against the Rosary

Matthew 6:7 says
1) Don't use many words (nolite multum loqui) - against a 2976 word prayer (which could include the Rosary)

Note: the context of Sirach is in an assembly (i.e. church equivalent), not a pagan one.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@YAJUN YUAN Revelation 4:8 is a prayer because it is an act of praise and worship. Exactly as the rosary.

The context of Sirach is not filibustering the godfearing assembly and not being wordy in prayers of petition.

While the rosary includes petitions, it is foremost an act of worship, which is the highest form of prayer. In Our Lord's prayer it corresponds to the petition "hallowed be thy name".

@Hans-Georg Lundahl @Hans-Georg Lundahl "is a prayer because it is an act of praise and worship" you have a definition that any act is a prayer, where do you get this definition from?
prayer (προσευχή) = exchange of wishes
worship (σέβομαι) = reverence, adore, to hold someone in high respect

"not being wordy in prayers of petition"
So you telling me, non iteres verbum is identical in meaining to nolite multum loqui?

"it corresponds to the petition "hallowed be thy name"
Leaving the argument against repetition aside why do you say the rosary instead of the divine mercy chaplet? It seems to me that it a form of hypo-Latria towards Mary.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@YAJUN YUAN hyper-dulia is a better word than hypo-latria.

Any dulia is hypo in relation to latria, but it is also sth other, lacking parts of latria.

@YAJUN YUAN "So you telling me, non iteres verbum is identical in meaining to nolite multum loqui?"

The Haydock comment seems to take it so.

And that this applies to petitionary prayer.

@Hans-Georg Lundahl The reason I use hypo-latria is because Catholics put here in class of her own (exclusive worth). God is also in a class of his own, but she is less than God, so she is hypo-latria.
Hyper-dulia would be applicable if there were others who were in the same category.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@YAJUN YUAN Hyper-dulia is a class of Her own given that others in the same class are only offered dulia.

There is a litany to St. Joseph.

Angela Goemans-Leith
@YAJUN YUAN Hypo-latria and hyper-dulia aside...

"I'm saying in a single prayer do not repeat yourself, in the Rosary I count 6x, 6x, 53x repetitions."

The Rosary is not one single prayer. It is just one single sitting. There is the Nicene Creed, the Our Father, the Hail Mary (repeated 10 times and then followed by 3 other prayers), the Glory Be, the O My Jesus, and the Hail Holy Queen. In none of these prayers are we just constantly repeating words. So if you're "not saying that you cannot use the same prayers again" then that should apply to the Rosary as well.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
@YAJUN YUAN All of the saints are in the same category.

But She is foremost of them. Dulia applies to all saints and hyper-dulia to Her.

The litanies, we have two litanies of latria, to the Name and Sacred Heart of Jesus. One of hyper-dulia, the Loreto litany to Her. Two of dulia, namely the litanies to All Saints and to St. Joseph.

[Can one ignore the words in favour of the mysteries, or should one, even?]

3:18 It is not a stupid goal.

The words of the prayer are the drum beat, the meditations on the mysteries the melody.

Btw, there is a way to combine it, second method of St. Grignon de Montfort, adding a relative clause after the name Jesus, and it has to do with the mystery.

Joyful : "whom thou oh virgin ..."
Sorrowful : "who for us sinners ..."
Glorious : "who ..."