A Few Ineptitudes in Protestantism

Do Catholics Worship Mary? Trent Horn said YES (Is He Right?)
Douglas Beaumont | 18 July 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G212Ah3QzPo

In fact, Protestants are so disingenious, as a certain man on "needGod" site shows himself, I'm not sure it's Trent giving occasion, it's more like them taking occasion for scandal.

Did Trent Horn Admit Catholics Worship Mary?
NeedGod․net | 7 July 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZj4sPn5Sbo

1:10 In the etymological sense, yes.

1:46 In Vietnamese theology, are the ancestors really interceding?

I would find it probable they are considered to have acquired a kind of spiritual power of their own by the transformation of death.

In Catholic theology, saints, and even Mary, use the power of intercession, exception for exorcisms and when angels are actually carrying out God's mission on earth. With powers God gave them when He created them.

Now, a priest in the Maccabees family actually did place his trust in Jeremias.

Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews 13 After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty 14 Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God 15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying [2 Machabees 15:12-15]

As I reread, I think it means Onias had also died.

Now, it doesn't matter if you think 2 Macc is canon or not. If it is historically accurate, or even thought to be so, by the time Jesus was born, this position was a known one among 1st C Jews of Judea, and Jesus never explicitly rejected it, so he could be assumed to have accepted it.

We Catholics do not base our definition on idolatry on the presumption that everything idolaters do is the definition of idolatry. So, if the Vietnamese pagans really thought the ancestors were actually interceding, that wouldn't mean that honouring someone who intercedes is idolatry, their act would be idolatry because they would believe their ancestors interceded with something else than the true God ... as examplified by their presumption ancestors are mostly in a position to do so. I e, no fear the ancestor could actually have gone to Hell and have his prayers rebuffed because he is on the damnation side of a great chasm (Luke 16:26).

Please note, while Abraham was interceding, as a soul in the netherworld, he didn't rebuff the soul of the rich man because there was a great chasm between dead persons and those who walk on earth, but there is a great chasm between the saved and the damned. Both Abraham and the rich man had already died, neither has so far risen to an undying body, glorified in the case of Abraham, or if Abraham has since then, it was when Jesus died (Matthew 27:53). After this dialogue took place.

Ancestors on the damnation side are both out of reach to receive benefits and out of reach to intercede. And the Vietnamese don't seem to realise that. Hence their act is idolatry, even if they think it's intercession, but not because they think the ancestors intercede, but because of the divine they are thought to intercede with not matching the God of the Bible, not matching a God who may have damned some of the ancestors.

2:04 I've just explained the difference fairly in depth.

With Mary we have the assurance of faith She is in Heaven and so able to intercede. With Mary we know it's the Triune God, especially the Second Person, Who is Her Son, the God-Man, that She intercedes with.

I don't diagnose idolatry because of likeness with an idolatrous worship, but because of divergence from the Christian one.

By the one, the soul of the rich man gave Abraham a title:

And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame [Luke 16:24]

2:22 "often surpassing the emotional attachment they even have to Jesus"

How do you know?

But if so, the love we have for God is not purely "emotional attachment" ...

2:35 In Hebrew the titles do not match.

Admit that Jesus is King of Heaven, and that Mary is physically with Him, that makes Her "Gebira" of Heaven. Confer the title of the King's Mother in Jeremias' time, Jeremias 13:18, and the powers that King Solomon's Mother should have held 3 Kings 2.

The false goddess is referred to as (li) "Mleket" of Heaven in Jeremias 7.

But even with a not quite matching title, God could have taken a special horror for a demon taking false worship under a title reminiscent of the one He was preparing for His Mother. Wouldn't you have taken it as an insult to your mother, if a drag queen had posed with something reminiscent of her?

2:45 Advocate, given to the Holy Spirit ... and therefore also to the created person most filled with the Holy Spirit, which is Mary. (Jesus is created as a Man, but that doesn't add another person, so He is not a created person).

Mediatrix omnium gratiarum ... to individuals and individual situations. Jesus is the collective mediator of man with God. But whenever someone comes to Him, there is some mediation of prayer or preaching from some created person, and the mediation of prayer is never without Mary.

3:31 God dispenses the gifts by His power and sovereignty, Mary by Her prayer.

And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face [3 Kings (1 Kings) 2:20]

Mary is to Jesus, Who is God, what Bathsheba was to Solomon.

4:04 Well, apparently you are as clueless about blasphemy as about idolatry.

Gabriel told Mary that Satan feared Her like Sisera feared Jael and like Holophernes feared Judith. That's the exact meaning of "blessed among women" in the wider Biblical context.

Even before She was pregnant with Jesus (scrutinise the order of events in Luke 1:28 and 31 "thou shalt conceive"), She had won a victory over the serpent, like Jael over Sisera.

And if "with one prayer thou wilt appease Him" is supposed to be blasphemy, what do you do of the idea of "accepting Jesus as saviour" and after that never fearing Him as judge?

4:41 Interesting.

The Dimond brothers who accept Pius XI actually argue against the title Coredemptrix, so, do you have a reference?

I found one: Marians of the Immaculate Conception: Teachings of the Popes: Pope Pius XI

4:58 Yes it is — "all generations" in Luke 1:48 = "all generations of Christians" μακαριοῦσίν, now Strong only gives the meaning "count as blessed" but here is a wider Greek lexicon, Liddell Scott:

μακαρίζω = bless, deem happy or pronounce happy, congratulate

The first reference with tina is Odyssey 15:538

.... ὡς ἄν τίς σε συναντόμενος μακαρίζοι.
... so that any one who met thee would give thee joy

In other words, Mary is not just saying we are going to credally believe that She is blessed, but that we will greet Her as blessed.

Meaning, it is perfectly Biblical that Marian devotion is an integral part of Christian worship.

5:15 And we did so* since 2nd or 3rd c. Egypt, times of persecution.

Sub tuum praesidium confugimus
Ύπò τήν σήv εύσπλαγχνίαν καταφεύγομεν Θεοτόκε.

Attested on John Ryland Greek manuscript P 470.

Hans Förster pretends it isn't very ancient, but then he has a strong Protestant bias. He is professor of NT theology on a Protestant faculty, while Lobel is an actual papyrologist.

5:25 I would not count "Paul VI" as Pope, but the words you said before, "God, not Mary" ... they are pretty absurd if you take into account that body cells of God Himself in the flesh remained in Her body. Fetal microchimerism, look it up.

5:56 Montini's admission is irrelevant to a Catholic who doesn't count him as Pope.

As said, devotion to Mary is in Luke 1:48.

This is the problem. As 5:59 soon as you depart from having scripture 6:01 as your ultimate authority, you then 6:03 have all these extra man-made traditions

Neither of them is a fair description of Catholicism. Both are very fair descriptions of Protestantism. The latter obviously visibly so, from the Reformation. Even the former for people aware of Luke 1:48 and Matthew 26:26. But more and more over centuries.

It's not "Ligoori", it's "Ligoo-awri" or "Ligwawri" ... and 6:54 no, Mary complements Jesus. Luke 1:42 mean in the light of Judges 5 and Judith 13 and of Genesis 3:15 that they are together in defeating Satan.

7:51 yeeees we usually do owe our mothers something because they bore us.

Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee [Exodus 20:12]

Part of the point of incarnation was, Jesus took it on Himself to fulfil the law. Including the debt we usually owe both to human father and mother, but in His case exclusively to the human Mother. Or not quite exclusively, since He certainly honoured also His stepfather, Joseph.

It's not blasphemy to say God has a debt to Mary unless it's blasphemous to say Christ is God. Go to Muslims or JW-sectarians if you like, I prefer remaining Catholic, confessing it is God Himself Who owes this debt to Mary.

8:10 St. Paul has not said "no one has given a gift to God" but asked "who has given?" ... to God as Man, Mary has given the utmost and Joseph has given pretty much.

8:32
Jesus has made every human nature insofar as He is God.
He also received His own from Mary insofar as He is Man.

What status does Scripture give Mary?

And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face
[3 Kings (1 Kings) 2:20]

8:58 And Mary clearly does possess the title Gebira. In precisely the Kingdom of Heaven, where Her Son is King.

If I called Her "queen of pagan Carthage" that would be disrespectful, Her Son never reigned over that evil society, and it went to its perdition when the Romans came. But in Heaven and also in every Christian nation that acknowledges Christ is King, She is Gebira, which we usually translate as Queen.

9:08 The Catholic titles are in the Bible if you know how to read it. Not all do.

And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him [Acts Of Apostles 8:30-31]

The unreal "if she could" dismisses that μακαρίζω implies some kind of face to face, if only through God's omniscience clearing up what belongs to Her glory.

9:26 Mary advocated in textual visibility for the host of a wedding feast and mediated Our Lord's first miracle.

Which by the way was fermented wine, not grape juice.

9:47 You'll admit King David was a man after God's heart (like the heart that started beating in Mary's Blessed womb)?

And Bethsabee bowing with her face to the earth worshipped the king, saying: May my lord David live for ever
καὶ ἔκυψε Βηρσαβεὲ ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καὶ προσεκύνησε τῷ βασιλεῖ καὶ εἶπε· ζήτω ὁ κύριός μου ὁ βασιλεὺς Δαυὶδ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. [3 Kings (1 Kings) 1:31]

I think you may recognise the verb in the phrase:

καὶ προσεκύνησε τῷ βασιλεῖ

The first phrase, I'm not sure what ἔκυψε means, my Greek is rusty, but the other words seem to indicate King David received a more humble gesture than we Catholics usually afford to Mary.

9:58 Noting the same verb: προσεκύνησεν ... the reason that Peter refused was that Cornelius was a recent convert from Paganism and therefore could have meant the worship as an act of adoration.

Or one could even say that Peter followed a tradition since Mardochai interpreted a commend to imply a necessity of refraining from worship gestures towards men, something clearly not present in the time when King David died. Look also at what his daughter did:

And not content with these things, she fell down at the king's feet and wept, and speaking to him besought him, that he would give orders that the malice of Aman the Agagite, and his most wicked devices which he had invented against the Jews, should be of no effect [Esther 8:3]

10:25 Note that the angel, unlike John who was a priest, has no power to make Jesus present on the altar. John still is a priest, by the way.

10:50 The two verses you showed show no such thing, because other verses show, worshipping someone human is not always forbidden.

11:25 God is certainly a jealous God, among other things jealous of the glory due to His Mother.

11:55 I'm sorry, but your advise is blatant disregard for Luke 1:48. Again, Strong mistranslates, makarizo means congratulate and is an expression of affection, like congratulations always are, if sincere.

12:18 Once I accept the fruits of Calvary by Baptism (already done) or, if sinning after Baptism, by Confession, I am however bound to good deeds, notably avoiding mortal sins, to retain my salvation.

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God 9 Not of works, that no man may glory 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them
[Ephesians 2:8-10]

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will
[Philippians 2:12-13]

Now, why the fear and trembling if God does all independently of our cooperation?

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption
[Ephesians 4:30]

In other words, if the Holy Spirit doesn't feel welcome, He removes Himself. Salvation is lost.

12:55 Again, if "accepting Jesus as my Saviour" guarantees He will never judge me, I don't have to fear Him as judge, if that isn't blasphemous, how is depending on the prayers of Mary blasphemous?

In either case, we are not fearing Jesus as judge.

So, you admit, that in and of itself isn't blasphemous.

But what did someone do and who, that this fear should pass?

On my view, Mary prayed. Mary prayed for me even when I was a sinner. She did something, I have nothing to boast about.
On your view, I did something, "accepted" ... Which fits Ephesians 2 better? The Catholic view, I'd say.

13:04 Instead of just having to repeat the 13:05 same prayers over and over and over 13:07 again, which often happens like in the 13:08 rosary,

Jesus said nothing against repeating a prayer over and over again. Including very specially Matthew 6:7 which you possibly mistranslate even (as Geneva Bible, Bishops' BIble and King James do) and certainly misinterpret. Repeating sth, anything, over and over again, in Greek is "thrallein" ... "battalogein" literally translates as "stutterspeak" and refers to Greco-Roman pagans having a hard time finding the right divinity to adress oneself to and the right title for the divinity, and therefore varying a request in several different wordings, hoping that one of the versions at least may be a hit.

When I prayed the rosary, regularly, I had peace.

My worst obstacles to praying the rosary are:

• severe stress
• a problem with saying "as we forgive those who trespass against us" (because of the people exposing me to severe stress).

13:26 It** hasn't improved.

* Flee to Mary. **My prayer life.