Thursday, July 18, 2013

... on Catholic and Orthodox Conflict in Transsylvania.

Commenting on:
TheMistAnchorite : Ecumenism The Orthodox Church is in Danger New Schismatic churches
Hans-Georg Lundahl
Have you one Nicolas Kabasilas or Kavasilas (Greeks pronounce older beta as vita now) in your calendar as a saint? The Greeks do.

He was as much a Cathodox biritualist as Vlad Tepec.

One of his books was by the Catholic Church put on index of forbidden books. However, it seems (from those who did read it) he counts the prayer before anamnesis in Roman Canon Missae as the necessary epiklesis.

Then check out Trent with Jerusalem and Iasi, Constantinople V with Vatican I. Councils.

Did you know that Constantinople V met with a limited condemnation by the Pope or Cardinals of the Old Rome?

"even the saints in heaven do not see God in his nature but only in his energies" - that one was condemned by Rome.

The errors of Varlaam saying God was not knowable were not supported when Rome condemned part of Constantinople V, and were condemned by Vatican I.

I am first and foremost a Catholic. I did a Kabasilas move for some years, with Neohimerite Roumanians. I returned.

I do not agree with your take on Greek Catholic Church.

I have a piety towards Monsignor Ghica. The Orthodox priest who became Uniate priest.

If you wish to know where Catholics and Orthodox differ, and where they agree, look at my side by side of the Catechism of Trent with that of Philaret of Moscow.

Google "trentophilaret". One blog of mine. It is incomplete, I only finished the commandments about God so far. I added two pages about Immaculate Conception and about filioque.
Motto: “From the day the Catholics became the accomplice of an action aimed against the Romanian nation, they lost all rights to our sympathies; for us, they are the same as pagans and the evildoers.” Mihai Eminescu NATIONAL POET OF ROMANIA ( in “Timpul” 1883 – L.R. 1936, page 65). [His reply continues, I give the first part here, as the second part is more historical and deserves another answer more about history.]
Hans-Georg Lundahl
A nation has rights, but the rights of the Church come first.

Visarion Sarai tried to defend what he considered as the correct rights of the correct Church.

Mihai Eminescu seems to have put nation above Church.

Hitler did the same later. With disastrous results. Agreed, he did it in a worse fashion than Eminescu.

But Pope Pius XI was right to recall, in defense of Church and of innocent lives, what he recalled in Mit brennender Sorge.

"7. Take care, Venerable Brethren, that above all, faith in God, the first and irreplaceable foundation of all religion, be preserved in Germany pure and unstained. The believer in God is not he who utters the name in his speech, but he for whom this sacred word stands for a true and worthy concept of the Divinity. Whoever identifies, by pantheistic confusion, God and the universe, by either lowering God to the dimensions of the world, or raising the world to the dimensions of God, is not a believer in God. Whoever follows that so-called pre-Christian Germanic conception of substituting a dark and impersonal destiny for the personal God, denies thereby the Wisdom and Providence of God who "Reacheth from end to end mightily, and ordereth all things sweetly" (Wisdom viii. 1). Neither is he a believer in God. 8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or ... any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds."


Part of Catholic clergy have been involved in a conflict where one Catholic nation protecting Catholic and Uniate clergy came in conflict with Orthodox clergy of that nation.

I do not see how this can be construed as the whole Catholic Church attacking the Romanian nation. Except perhaps by one who tends to idolise the same and forget what Holy Church is about.
TheMistAnchorite [continued from above]
Attempts of Magyarization of the Transylvanian Romanians By the Greek-Catholic Church. read it on google. General Bukow on the order of the pope, destroied more than 300 very old romanian churches to the ground because we refused to become catholics, do not hurt us again
Hans-Georg Lundahl
Prislop Monastery, a short day's walk from Haţeg?

In 1762 there is no possibility that generals of Catholic nations acted on orders of the Pope.

I have no clue about what happened between Romanian Orthodox and Greek Catholics leading up to general Bukow, nor whether he was Catholic or Protestant.

I do know that in his time Papacy was not ordering the Catholic nations but rather suffering persecution from them, due to Masonry and Enlightenment. About same time when Jesuits were dissolved.

[I looked up Bukow and finally found something:]

"In fact, from 1761-1762, most of the monasteries and sketes present in Transylvania at the time (more than 150) were destroyed by cannons or set on fire, by order of general Nicolai Adolf Bukow, the envoy of Maria Tereza, empress of Austria. Practically, any trace of monastic life disappeared in Transylvania after that period." (source)

Maria Teresia and her Mason son Joseph II did that to Benedictines too. He hated "contemplative orders".

"As soon as Transylvania came under the Habsburgs’ rule (1688-1918), a little part of the Romanian clergy and faithful were obliged, through pressure and deceit, to accept the “union” with the Church of Rome (1698-1701), at the time of metropolitan Atanasie Anghel." (same source)

Pressure and deceit is your version.

I am not sure Monsignor Ghica agreed with you on that part.

I found more in Romanian than in English about Visarion Sarai.

[Found this in English though]

I do know that Catholics have paid in the same suffering since.

The Clergy who had sworn an oath to the French Constitution were quite as unwanted by faithful Catholics as Uniate Priests a few decades earlier [by Orthodox in Transsylvania].

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