Friday, July 19, 2013

... on Inquisition, Galileo, Emperor (St?) Constantine

video commented on:
tektontv : Miss Dusters 3: Inquisition Fables
Hans-Georg Lundahl
Those that didn't confess received harsher punishments?

As far as I know the procedure, those who did not confess at all could not be condemned (unless they "confessed by behaviour", like crypto-Jews refusing to eat porc or Albigensians - veggies back then - refusing to kill and eat a hen).

Those who denied a confession already given or only confessed after torture were given harsher punishments.
What credentialed historian says such a thing?
Hans-Georg Lundahl
My source is Dictionnaire Apologétique de la Foi Catholique, from memory.

One more thing, in England (I have this from Henry Charles Lea) the Inquisition against the Lollards gave the local bishop full discretion on trial, it was not like Inquisitions controlled by Rome. It can be noted that St Joan was tried like that, and that bishop Cauchon before accepting had consulted Paris University on whether licit or not. Sorbonne said yes, & when she was burnt regretted and insisted on Roman system.
Um, Lea is precisely the source that historians like Kamen are pegging as full of false information.

And really, can't you do better than a "dictionary" that is over 100 years old? Like something by a credentialed historian?
was going to post following but "Vous avez été bloqué par le propriétaire de cette vidéo." = blocked.
Lea's conclusions suck.

But his precise facts on precise occasions do not.

The 1401 decision by English Parliament, the fact that the 1401 law was behind the burning of Tyndale (and Mary Tudor's other heresy hunts, despite the warning from both Spain and Catholic Church she had better not) and similar facts you can find in Lea have not been discredited.

I looked up:

Henry Kamen : The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision

If we assume that the words, supposedly from Kamen, about Inquisition's suspects confessing falsely in order to get away with more lenient penances by fear of otherwise being falsely condemned and more severely punished, are about the Spanish Inquisition (and mind you, Henry Kamen studied the Spanish one) then also the position is ludicrous.

Saint Ignatius of Loyola was a mystic, a hesychast, a penitent who prayed as a recluse and gave spiritual guidance about avoiding and confessing mortal sins, he got suspect of being an Alumbrado - a near Catholic version of Quakerism - and of putting the Inner Light in the p^lace of external objective factors like Bible, Tradition and visible Church. He was before the Inquisition three times, he got acquitted three times, which would not have been possible if he had made a false confession. The third time he was told: "you cannot give spiritual guidance and differentiate between venial and mortal sins, unless you study theology first", and in obedience to Inquisitors he went to Sorbonne to study Theology. It was in Paris that he met St Francis Xavier and a few other of the original Jesuits.

This would not have been possible if the Spanish Inquisition had been ruthless and condemning suspects more harshly if they refused to confess at all.

But does Kamen actually say that? Maybe about the witches, though what the Inquisitor now known as their advocate found was false confessions of witchcraft for another motive, a hysteric belief - which he combatted - that such and such a sin or temptation against purity could only be forgiven if they were burnt at the stake as witches. This is at least what Gustav Henningsen concludes in this book:

The Witches' Advocate: Basque Witchcraft and the Spanish Inquisition, 1609-1614

After that the standard penance for a confessed witch was a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela, to St James in Galicia. After abjuring the Devil, of course.

Now, it seems Henry Charles Lea was or may have been vastly inaccurate on Spanish Inquisition - a book I have not read - in matters where Kamen corrects him. Commparing heretics to terrorists rather than, say, Satanists, makes more sense in a Spanish than in a Languedocian context too. The book I had read of HC Lea was on the Medieval Inquisition. This was also the matter where I was using Dictionnaire Apologétique de la Foi Catholique. Kamen's book would hardly deny what I said about Medieval non-English and English Inquisitions as vastly different. Since Spanish Inquisition, which he is dealing with, started after what is commenly called "the Middle Ages".

other video commented on:
tektontv : Miss Dusters 4: Galileo Fables
Hans-Georg Lundahl
I got it like: "Galileo was not in trouble for Heliocentrism, but for being a pest" ... did I get it wrong?

Now, that would have been a major no no for the Inquisition. The occasion which got Galileo in trouble in 1633 might have been lampooning the Pope in Dialogo, but occasion and given, stated reason are two different things.

Lampooning the pope is not heresy to be abjured, being a pest is not heresy to be abjured, heliocentrism was considered so, specifically against Joshua chapter 10.
No, you got it right. That's essentially what all the historians say.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
I don't know whom you call "all", but you forgot Robert Sungenis there.

One of them you hand on the opinion of seems to have been a Jesuit, and he seems to have been popular with Benedict XVI.

Now, the thesis "Galileo got condemned BY being a pest" is tenable, but the thesis "was condemned FOR being a pest" is not.

Condemned theses 1633: 1) sun is center and does not move as observed, 2) earth is not center but is in third heaven above the sun. = is third planet from sun.

1:st now abandoned.

[Except for the part "and does not move as observed" if Sungenis got that quote right]
Sungenis' credentials are not as a historian. I refer only to those who have doctorates in history.

Don't promote nutty ideas about geocentrism here or I will ban you as a troll.
Hans-Georg Lundahl
You seem to think that today's universities are the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

St Paul says that the Church is.

Geocentrism = believing your eyes = nutty? C'mon!

Robert Sungenis made a good research on either field, I even think he did better as historian than as natural philosopher.
You seem to think people should give a nut credence just because you're paranoid, uncritical, and ignorant.

Well, you were warned. Bye, troll.

argument not given to tektontv, since blocked to soon
See link:

... on Young Earth Creationism Denying Gravity (with a certain levity towards the matter, thank God!)

By dealing with angelic causality of movements of singular heavenly bodies (but not of Heaven as a whole, that only God can move at will), I did one better than Sungenis as natural philosopher.

Of course, "tektontv" would possibly have called me either ignorant or paranoid or Pagan for saying so too, but blocking me was a more sure way of not coming through as somewhat ignorant and prejudiced himself than letting me argue.

video not commented on, since good:
tektontv : Miss Dusters 5: Constantine Fables

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