Were the Pyramids Built Before the Flood?
Leningrad codex ... now, I am a fairly firm believer in LXX chronology - and in Vulgate except for chronology.
That is, I am not a believer in Leningrad codex. Btw, the part about chronology was wrong already where the Hebrew original for St Jerome's Vulgate was concerned. I have one idea of why this happened : Jews have a way of wanting to make Melchisedec = Shem. That way, Melchisedec would not have been a goy. The LXX chronology makes this impossible, but with Vulgate and Masoretic, it is possible.
[As we shall see, Nathan Hoffman thinks the same, see below]
11:22 Shall we take a non-Ussher, non-Masoretic timeline Ussher style?
You have St Jerome's whose chronology the Catholic Church, at least Latin Rite, uses every Christmas.
Christ born 5199 after Creation, 2957 after Flood, 2015 after Birth of Abraham.
Obviously, it is inspired by LXX, only LXX for Creation to Flood being 2242 years, LXX and Samaritan agreeing with Josephus on longer timespans between post-Flood patriarchs, and St Jerome's timeline agrees perhaps a bit better with Samaritan, by omitting Cainan. This omission is not shared by Syncellus, whose chronology + 8 more years is given each Christmas in Byzantine tradition Churches :
Christ born 5508 after Creation, 3366 after Flood ...
12:50 Now, are the step pyramids at Saqqara in any way carbon dated?
I think they are historically attested as Djoser's, he was probably Joseph's pharao.
And this means that they are reshuffleable like this:
2800 BC = carbon date of Djoser's coffin, contemporary to Saqqara pyramids = 1709 BC, when Joseph was in Egypt about surviving Djoser.
Here is an article where I dealt with that:
Creation vs. Evolution : This Morning I Read it's 77 and 68 Years of Radiocarbon
[short link : http://ppt.li/3sw]
- Djoser and Imhotep lived about a thousand years before Joseph was ever in Egypt. Yes, there are lots of similarities between Joseph and Imhotep. But you don't know for a fact that they are the same person. I know that the Step Pyramid was built as a smaller structure at first. But then later on it was expanded. When they found Imhotep's name in the pyramid, I don't necessarily see that as evidence that Imhotep was there are the original building. It could be that the original building was built a thousand years before Joseph, but then a thousand years later, Joseph expanded it. So they might have dated Imhotep incorrectly.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- "Djoser and Imhotep lived about a thousand years before Joseph was ever in Egypt."
Imhotep is historically dated to Djoser.
Djoser is CARBON DATED to about 1000 years before Joseph was in Egypt.
If Imhotep is really Joseph, this means sth for carbon level in the atmosphere back then, just as I mentioned in article.
With Djoser being grossly misdated, this answers the rest of your points.
"But you don't know for a fact that they are the same person."
I think the Hunger Stele is a good clue. Or even a proof. I take it over carbon date of Djoser anytime!
15:41 - Here I must defend conventional creation scientists.
Even very fast growing populations these days have constraints of economy which were not there in the uncrowded days after the Flood. Citing one:
// From the Flood to the Tower of Babel
The date of the Tower of Babel event is unknown. From context, it appears the timing has something to do with a man named Peleg, whose name means ‘division’ (Gen 10:25).16 He was born c. 101 years after the Flood and lived until c. 340 years after the Flood (Gen 11).17
If the division of people occurred only 100 years after the Flood, there would not be many people in the world. However, the data behind the growth rates calculated in figure 4 indicate that under some scenarios it is possible to obtain a population size greater than 1,000 individuals in that much time. This occurred at all settings of minimum CBA with a minimum child spacing of 1 year, or with small minimum CBA and a minimum child spacing of 2 or 3 years. It is also possible to arrive at over 10,000 individuals with a minimum child spacing of 1 year and a minimum CBA <= 17, and up to 40,000 individuals with a minimum CBA of 14, although these are not likely scenarios.
After 340 years, it is trivial to have 1,000 individuals in the population and most parameter settings produce population sizes many orders of magnitude greater than that. How many people were in existence when the population was divided? Sadly, one cannot determine the number from numerical analyses like these. //
Modelling biblical human population growth
by Robert Carter and Chris Hardy
We also do not know how many were needed for the building. A "tower of which the top reaches into heaven" is constructed rather often at NASA or their furnishers. It is called a three step rocket. On Cape Canaveral it looks like a tower before takeoff, and after takeoff only the top reaches physically into heaven, the real heaven well above atmosphere.
So, even 1000 could have been enough, with someone searching for the rocket fuel (I think Nimrod had chosen Uranium for the task and God sent Ice Age to prevent his men from reaching Uranium mines in Canada) somewhere else.
However, I agree with you that LXX chronology is likelier, since at beginning of ice age we don't find anything looking like a rocket ramp, at end of it, Younger Dryas, yes, we do : Göbekli Tepe. I give Peleg a rather later birth, so that Palaeolithic from first Magdalenian cave painting can fit in between Flood and T of B = G T.
- There's no possible way the Tower of Babel was only 100 years after the flood. Just to get 30,000 people you'd need a growth rate that is absurd beyond all reason. And surely the Tower of Babel had to be bigger than the Great Pyramid. Otherwise, if the Great Pyramid was bigger than the Tower, then why would God go through the trouble of thwarting the plans of the Tower of Babel, but then allow for the building of an even bigger structure? Why would God allow the bigger one, but not allow the smaller one?That makes no sense! The Tower of Babel was supposed to reach into the heavens. The pyramid is tall, but it's not really all that tall. Even the Eiffel tower is taller. I think the atheists have a really good point on this one. They're absolutely right that you'd need an absurdly high growth rate. It couldn't have happened in only 100 years. And there's no doubt that it occurred at the birth of Peleg. Even Josephus figured that one out.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- "There's no possible way the Tower of Babel was only 100 years after the flood."
"Just to get 30,000 people you'd need a growth rate that is absurd beyond all reason."
I probably agree, if only because grandchildren of Noah needed time to be born and grown into puberty.
"And surely the Tower of Babel had to be bigger than the Great Pyramid."
No. Genesis never mentions size.
"Otherwise, if the Great Pyramid was bigger than the Tower, then why would God go through the trouble of thwarting the plans of the Tower of Babel, but then allow for the building of an even bigger structure? Why would God allow the bigger one, but not allow the smaller one?That makes no sense!"
I have even heard like this : why would God thwart Babel but not rockets? It only makes sense of Tower of Babel was itself a rocket, God intended for rockets to succeed, but with a delay.
A salutary delay which allowed for a change of fuel from Uranium to H2 + O2. A much better rocket fuel, than the one I suspect Nimrod was going for!
"The Tower of Babel was supposed to reach into the heavens."
No, only its top was. In a three step rocket only the top reaches into Heaven.
"The pyramid is tall, but it's not really all that tall. Even the Eiffel tower is taller. I think the atheists have a really good point on this one."
Except that tall is not the point. The tops of pyramids, Eiffel tower, up to lately Twin Tower remain at same distance from ground. They are not moving into the heavens, like a three step rocket is.
Which is why I think T o B was meant to be sth like that.
"They're absolutely right that you'd need an absurdly high growth rate. It couldn't have happened in only 100 years."
No, they are not if ToB was a rocket which needed far fewer people than a pyramid, and I don't think even the pyramid needed 30 000 people working full time, I think that is a roll of how many were involved one time or other in the work. If it is at all a figure from back then documentation.
"And there's no doubt that it occurred at the birth of Peleg. Even Josephus figured that one out."
The Bible only says "And to Heber were born two sons: the name of the one was Phaleg, because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name Jectan."
In his days - not necessarily at his birth. And it also does not say whether the division was at the dispersion or an earlier event. Noah or someone dividing up earth juridically, before Babel project braved that. This would mean Peleg could have been born while the earth was being portioned out like Alexander VI did between Spain and Portugal for non-Christian countries.
AND both beginning and end of Babel story happening after Peleg was already named.
15:46 "to build a city with an enormous tower"?
First, city, even in 100 years, one could have had about 1000 people around. Fastest growing populations now are no indicator for back then, since these have economic constraints stopping some early marriages from getting along.
Second, the Bible nowhere says the tower was tall. In length of object. It says its top was meant to reach into heaven, and the tops of three step rockets do that, but we don't find these even with all three steps are extremely tall.
- Of course the population grew faster back then. Their death rate wasn't as fast since they lived longer. But the growth rate you're suggesting that women be pregnant for only about 3 weeks. Sorry, but that's not realistic.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- I said "even in 100 years, one could have had about 1000 people around"
You interpret this as "the growth rate you're suggesting that women be pregnant for only about 3 weeks."
Have you accounted for LARGER families, making Duggars seem a cosy little family?
I'd like to see your calculations for "100 years = 8 - 1000 = 3 weeks pregnancies"!
17:09 Obviously, the population growth was actually slowing down as economic possibilities narrowed.
As said, 8.58 % a year is probably not needed, since I think 1000 people would have been enough for T of B project to start, but if there was such a growth, it would have slowed down after a bit, since after some growth some guys find it is not so ultra easy any more to marry and look for a new piece of land to farm or - just after Flood and well to nearly up to Babel, if Göbekli Tepe - hunt and gather on.
17:29 You cite 30,000 people involved in Cheops pyramid.
Are you sure so many people were actually needed full time, or can they have taken turns, so that 30,000 people were in fact involved at one time or other, but most of them NOT from beginning to end?
18:34 a fullfledged LXX chronology involves Christ being born in 5500 BC, it would seem from Byzantine liturgic or George Syncellus' chronology (5508 / 5500). St Jerome's chronology involves Christ being born 5199 after Creation.
18:40 So I say we are probably in year 7216 after Creation, perhaps even in year 7525.
- no, the Greek is not right about everything. The Greek is wrong about the extra Cainan, and it's also wrong about the 5 generations from Adam down to Mahallalel.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- In extra Cainan, you have Byzantine Liturgy with Syncellus against you.
With Adam being 230 years at birth of Seth, and you denying this, you have against you even Roman Latin Liturgy and St Jerome, as well as above.
I cannot say you have nothing for you, since Vulgate supports your view on that.
19:32 "II Cainan" - for time between Flood and Abraham, the difference between Syncellus (LXX only) and St Jerome is about as if St Jerome omitted the years between Cainan's birth and his begetting Salah.
On the other hand, it could be a cultural thing to omit him from a Hebrew style genealogy, I think I read somewhere he was a bad sinner and was therefore omitted. In that case, I cannot just go for St Jerome and just diss Syncellus and Byzantine liturgic tradition.
20:21 There were Levites in each tribe and they intermarried with each tribe, including Judah.
The Jews come from the tribes Judah and Benjamin so today a Cohen or a Levi comes from Levites intermarried with tribes of Judah and Benjamin. A Samaritan levite or cohen would come from Levites intermarried with Ephraim and some other ingredients of Samaritan population.
AND the Blessed Virgin was about first cousin or sth to Elisabeth, the wife of the cohen Zachariah who was father to the prophet St John the Baptist.
That said, Christ is even so neither an Aaronite priest nor quite qualified to be so, neither was, as you are going to say, Melchisedec, fairly obviously a Jebusite, descended very probably from Canaan.
And yes, Masoretic and also Hebrew original for Vulgate allow Melchisedec = Shem, while LXX and Samaritan both exclude this.
23:33 Good detective work, sir!
24:45 Both a good detective work on why Jewish identification is wrong, and on why St Paul might be warning Titus!
And excellent detective work up to 28:16, I took a snap shot of that still for my blog!
30:07 The one place where I can't credit you with excellent detective work is accepting Saqqara pyramids as centuries before 2000 BC.
Abraham lived around that time, and we should probably group him with Narmer in time. That is, Narmer, carbon dated raw date to 3400 BC or so, must have lived more like 2000 BC.
Abraham coincides with sth else which requires carbon date 3400 BC, namely chalcolithic of En-Geddi. I failed to properly credit Dr A.J.M. Osgood for his detective work, but it was because I trusted him so much I didn't read all of the article carefully. I didn't even look up whether En-Geddi was mentioned in Genesis 14. Its synonym is:
// As is often the case, the positive clue comes from the most insignificant portion of this passage. In Genesis 14:7 we are told that the kings of Mesapotamia attacked ‘the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon-tamar’. Now 2 Chronicles 20:2 tells us that Hazezon-tamar is En-gedi, the oasis mentioned in Scripture a number of times on the western shore of the Dead Sea. //
The Times of Abraham
By Dr A.J.M. Osgood
Great detective work, Osgood, even if you missed this has an implication for carbon levels - or didn't like the implication it had! In c. 2000 BC, the carbon level was so low that things from back then, if organic then, carbon date to c. 1400 years older than they are, i e to 3400 BC.
A Masoretic reading making Abraham more recent would of course add even more extra years to make same apparent date. This means that Saqqara pyramids are too young to disprove the Masoretic text - but nice try!
(My rise of carbon curve could however be another try against Masoretic text : since the carbon years between 40 000 BC and 9600 BC must fit between Flood and beginning of Babel around birth of Peleg - this is another issue, it was around beginning of Babel, not at its dispersion 40 years later, that Peleg was born, at another division of the Earth - Syncellus does agree with this being made juridically by Noah and Babel project being in rebellion against it, even if in his chronology which I basically agree with, Noah would have been dead already, so it would have to have been someone else).
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- For seeing all of my comments in order, see this review of your video:
- Thanks! I checked out your blog. I'm glad this information is getting out there, because I think it's important for people to know.
- Hans-Georg Lundahl
- You are welcome!