Thursday, June 8, 2017

.... on Demographics of tektontv (Life expenctancy, marital age, retirement)

Screwy Moments in Scriptural Interpretation 14: Is Retirement Biblical?

"1) Most people died before they reached age 35."

Where do you get that stats from? Not as in "what scholar", but what is his raw material for that conclusion?

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : "in a time when most people died at an average age of 35"

Since that article, I have been backing it up as to ages in which we know sufficient numbers of people to make stats. I linked to the other English articles in top below title of post. I made a French series too:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Les âges des ancêtres DU Robespierre - et d'autres!

+ the sequence.

B U T those Biblical times, where exactly do you get that many stats? Fewer people remain documented to our day, at least as far as I know. This goes for both times of United Kingdom, Judah and Israel, Exile and thereon, and for Gospel times.

So, where is the raw material for that conclusion?

"2) If you got to be as old as 65, you were normally unable to work for other reasons."


News Bulletin on Numbers and Deuteronomy

4:29 12 was the minimum age for marriage, based on:

while Talmud allows marriage to girls under 12 down to 3 (or 3.5?) marriages contracted below 12 can be revoked by the wife, however the Yemenite rabbis disapprove of that.

(reference to Jewish Encyclopedia article may be added later, when I have walked away, looked it up and come back to computer, OK!)

I had said : "while Talmud allows marriage to girls under 12 down to 3 (or 3.5?) marriages contracted below 12 can be revoked by the wife, however the Yemenite rabbis disapprove of that."

Either the editions have been changed or I am mixing up two diverse works of reference. I can also have been of sloppy memory about the implications of a me'un.

A marriage from 12 and a day to 12 and a half can be contracted by the father or inhibited by the father, unless the na'arah becomes orphan (or is so already) or she becomes fully major, bogereth.

A marriage up to 12, while she is ketannah, can only be contracted by the father, but can be repudiated by her as long as she is not older than 12.

But from 12 and a day on, if she has not pronounced a me'un, this is considered as a form of consent as an adult.

Ref. article Child Marriages, Macmillan Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed. vol. 5 and col. 424, 425. Too long to actually copy the full text here by hand, having no copy paste!

Back to context:

THIS is fairly easy to reconstruct as : 12 is a remaining OT limit, valid since the times of King David if not before, while "down to the age of 3" is a later and in fact Babylonic addition.

Now, there is a case for fathers marrying girls off as soon as they can be married - and the Pauline verse about "better not to marry his daughter" is actually not against this, but about parents respecting a choice of virginity.

But whether this case meant the custom of marrying daughters off at 12 was prevalent as early as in times of Moses or not is another question.

The case has so much to do with generally being very aware of issues concerning chastity, which can have come by as a result either of living among Canaaneans or as a result of living in Babylon in exile.

So in Moses' time it is possible some girls were not married until 17 or even 19 while they technically could have married as soon as 12.

Talmudic traditions on this subject are subject to caution, if that is where yours scholarship has them from.

5:09 So, if Pagans did it a certain way ... you have VERY extensive sources of when Pagan girls in the time of Moses married?

I think not!

First, you may be thinking of the wrong Pharao, second, I doubt you have good statistics even from the times of the one you are thinking of.

5:21 Age 12 was and is a normal minimal age for a girl marrying. Based on Menarche. Look up the french article, and you will find why 12 / 13 is a fair age:

Says nothing about how long some girls can wait past that.

5:29 While Pagans are on the subject ... they sometimes differ.

Babylonians were flat earth, Chanaaneans / Phoenicians round earth - what were the Hebrews who lived between them?

6:51 "because the typical human lifespan of the day was as low as 25"

(If it was 35, sorry, watching this without headphones).

What exact old pair of shoes did you pull that (either of the two) figure out of?

[6 days after older comment which has not been answered either!]

6:59 Sure "adolescence" as "developmental period" is either modern or Pagan (associated mainly with male population having a longer and in Athens even compulsory eductaion).

Puberty and you could marry. But how soon you married after that would depend.

7:08 It used to be even 12 in some states.

In 1995 I read of a girl who quit school by marrying at 12 instead of continuing to 16. Clinton was menacing to stop that.

7:16 The maturity for marriage is organic, not "psychological".

A development of brain which stops at 12. And puberty.

The mean age for puberty is just after this development of the brain. Directly just after for girls, 2 years delay for boys (adding up to 14).

The NEXT change in the brain is after puberty is well past - and too late to be relevant for marriage (it happens 18-25 and is actually a shrinking, a weeding out of neuronic pathways not necessary during puberty).

11:22 Actual bottom line : a Pagan girl from Midianites would probably have not chosen her husband (Midianites were slave traders, see Genesis, which makes me suspect they treated daughters as property too - care to guess where I get the comparison from?) so a Midianite girl of 12 would probably not try any resistance but rather go "oh, you mean it's actually marriage? I can chose my husband among the other slaves? your son actually has to ask me, even if I am your captive?"

11:45 All marriages were arranged in that area?

Heavy extrapolation from some that were.

I'd like to know what scholar made that blooper.

10:35 I think your problem with that fundy atheist is partly that you are too bashful about what he is saying.

A Hebrew wedding involved a ritual defloration, see Genesis account of how Jacob was tricked into deflowering Lia instead of Rachel. So, if marital age was a minimum 12, sexual activity was a minimum 12 as well.

Since puberty usually happens around this age (and this independently of lowered puberty) and since a certain brain development ends here, I don't see much point about being bashful about it.

OK, girls' hips are less extended at 12 than at 17 (one reason for which certain girls would wait even if they could marry at 12 legally), but on the other hand, some first marriages occur at 30 and a first childbirth at 30 is due to non-birth-extended plus more rigid hips even riskier per se at 30 than at 13.

While ma has told me not to quote her, I still do. She was a med student while telling me, and I am not pretending this is medical advice. It is however an argument based on medical facts.

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