Refuting Gene Kim on Slow Apostasy and Perhaps More · What About Bad Popes? · McCullough on France · Three Secret Societies and Catholicism their Enemy Misrepresented
The Church Is NOT In the Final Tribulation (Rev. 2:8-9a) | Dr. Gene Kim
BBC International | 17.IX.2019
- "stray away and apostasise" ... a thing the Church cannot do, see Matthew 28:18-20.
Specifically the part where it says "all days" (sometimes mistranslated as "always", probably after Protestant French models, since "toujours" used to mean "all days" and now means "always").
2:28 "a thousand years, fullblown apostasy"
Oh, so after one thousand years, the promise of "every day" ceases to apply?
4:27 Oh, so you are better than ante-Nicene fathers at studying Bible truth?
Nah, don't think so.
Modern times are busy times. Even if you are not technically a slave, you are often a slave of a timetable.
Contrast ancient Roman times. St. Joseph could absent in Egypt from his carpenter's shop, leaving it to older sons from a previous marriage, and just resume it when he got back with Our Lady and Child Jesus.
Dan Barker thought, when St. Paul mentioned 500, most of whom are still alive, nobody could check, St. Paul could have afforded the bluff, no problem. Well, he's presuming St. Paul was speaking to 20th C. Proletarians. No, he was speaking to Roman Empire not just resident slaves, but also citizens. Free citizens. Some of whom could absent for the year or so it would take to get to Holy Land on foot and back again after checking. Or even many of whom could do so.
Same with studying Bible : even persecuted Roman Christians enjoyed more leasure than you do, simply because they were not living in the 20th C.
And obviously the Church would set apart time for its bishops, priests, deacons to actually do the study very well.
You have a greater choice of tools and texts, than they had? True, but your choice involves some more morbid items, like the idea Apostolic Fathers were heading towards apostasy. So, you are making a poorer use of the choice you have than they were making.
"you got time"
Old Romans were so much more pressed by the clock ... not.
They used sun dials, where you could know if you were in "first hour" (6 - 7am), "second hour" (7 - 8am), and if you had shown them a watch showing exact minutes (6:35 am) they would have marvelled more about apparent uselessness of your trinket than about its ingenuity.
THEY got time. YOU are the one pressed by the clock. You are turning historic truth upside down. Just so you can pretend you are wiser about the Bible than the Apostolic Fathers and Ante-Nicene Fathers and obviously also Post-Nicene Fathers.
- 4:58 "everyone had manuscripts all scattering around see"
It's presumed Christians if not invented at least very early took on codex form. Manuscript or print doesn't matter all that much, manuscript is a bit like large print. But codex vs scroll does matter.
Meaning, yes, there were early on codices of complete Bible.
Did all have them, they were expensive? No, hence the idea "each Christian needs to have a Bible" is wrong.
But did the Fathers have them? Think. Each of them was a prominent figure in his Church, more likely than simple lay members to get martyred, up to 313 (except in Ethiopia and Armenia and Edessa, outside Roman Empire). Would they being devout enough to take that kind of post not want a Bible? And would they not be sufficiently supported by their Church to have one? Sure. Case closed.
ANY Christian even teenager in 3:rd C. having a Bible? Baloney.
Any Church Father in 3:rd C. NOT having a Bible? Equally BS.
And, for next time, learn the difference between "manuscript vs print" and "scroll vs codex".
So they very much did have at least as good an opportunity as you to know the truth.
- 5:15 Apostasising more and more and more till it contributes to the Catholic Church later on?
Baloney. Apostasy is not that gradual.
I'll show you an example of Apostasy from the Catholic world.
1947 someone in Paris is asking Papal Biblical Commission in Rome "pretty please, can we say Adam developed from previous humans" or sth like that. They got too much of a yes, in 1950 Pope Pius XII changed this to a half and half no in Humani Generis. Fast forward to present decade. TOFspot blogger claims to have shown a model in which Adam is ancestor of all men but not sole ancestor in his generation. His friend Mark Shea is calling Creationists "liars for Jesus" and pointing to them as examples of what happens when you don't obey all that comes from "Pope Francis"
1947 - 2019 = 72 years. That's how fast apostasy happens, there are perhaps fewer real Catholics than new "Catholics."
- 5:20 "Dark Ages, full blown Apostasy"
First phrase, "Dark Ages" - full blown mythology.
Second phrase "full blown Apostasy" - again full blown mythology.
Probably not half as historic as Greek mythology about War of Troy.
- 5:37 "their focus was to break from the Catholic Church system"
And therefore completely right in doctrine was not required of them ... read Matthew 28:18-20 once again, you just made Our Lord Jesus Christ a liar with those words.
- 5:55 During that time the focus was to resist persecution etc.
Fine. And next generation of those was even on your own admission, Roman Catholics or Catholic Church System.
6:14 And you missed out on "angel of the Church" meaning its bishop ....
- 7:05 And your refutation of JW was very probably used by St. Athanasius at Nicaea too.
When the Catholic Church was refuting Arians, while Novatians seemed to no longer exist and Donatists only locally around Carthage.
And if anyone was apostasising, it was Donatists, when they became robber "anarchists" known as Circumcellions.
- 9:07 Catholicism is (mainly at least) post-Tribulation, for rapture of those surviving to second coming and resurrection of those who had died before that, at the same time.
9:22 We also think the Church will fail and be socially and militarily more and more conqured by Antichrist, till Jesus comes down.
A bit like US Cavalry saving the last three waggonloads going West from a massacre by someone like Geronimo.
- 10:30 "The Church will be raptured before the tribulation"
Where does that leave "all days" in Matthew 28:18-20?
Plus, the camp of the saints means the Church.
10:51 "The Church can't bring the kingdom"
What if the Church is the kingdom?
"Christ has to bring in the kingdom"
What if He did so by founding the Church?
- 13:47 The ten days part is about individual prison.
Ten days to martyrdom or freedom.
The 1260 days are overall a bit longer.