Tolk Lang QQ

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Tolk Lang QQ · Tolkienophobia · As Tolk Lang QQ Keep Dropping In · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: I'm Not the First to Ask · New blog on the kid: Since I'm Being Pestered by Tolkienophobes ...

Q I

What is the reason for the different names given to trolls and orcs in The Lord of the Rings?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-reason-for-the-different-names-given-to-trolls-and-orcs-in-The-Lord-of-the-Rings/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

28.VI.2024

Vigil of Sts. Peter and Paul

Trolls in fairly Western parts of Eriador are supposed to have spoken Westron, which “in translation gives” English (according to Tolkien’s conceit), hence English names.

Orcs are some of them very fluent in Black speach and all somewhat savvy about it, so their names are in Black speech (same language as the ring inscription).

Q II

Did J.R.R. Tolkien create his own constructed languages, such as Elvish? Is there any evidence to support this?
https://www.quora.com/Did-J-R-R-Tolkien-create-his-own-constructed-languages-such-as-Elvish-Is-there-any-evidence-to-support-this/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

28.VI.2024

Vigil of Sts. Peter and Paul

Yes, two evidences actually. Or even three.

1. Their complete non-existence in public print prior to his publication of The Hobbit (which includes the Sindarin names Elrond, Esgaroth, Thranduil, Dorwinion, Gondolin) and then The Lord of the Rings (which includes texts in both Sindarin and Quenya, as well as more names in both, and the plant names elanor and athelas) — but this could be accounted for also by Tolkien’s own fictional account of having found very old written material and deciphered it. He didn’t go to quite the lengths that Joseph Smith did to keep up the fiction, but still.
2. However, if they were languages he had found, he would not have been altering and altering them from 1930’s to Lord of the Rings in the ways he did. Sure, one changes Naram-Lin to Aram-Sin, because one thinks one has detected a misreading in cuneiform, but the changes he actually did are far beyond what correcting misreadings could account for, yes, we do have his notebooks from the 1930’s and can compare Lord of the Rings style Quenya to 1930’s Qenya, Lord of the Rings style Sindarin to 1930’s Goldogrin. Dedicated fans who had the confidence of his son Christopher Tolkien have done a great job looking at these things. Tolkien tinkered with his languages, in a way archaeologists would never tinker with the extinct languages they try to decipher (it’s more like the difference between Proto-Indo-European as per Schleicher in 1868 and Proto-Indo-European in the version that includes 3 Laryngeals as per Jerzy Kuryłowicz 1927, there is a big difference between deciphering and reconstructing a language no longer spoken).
3. A third indicator is that the vocabulary is limited to coincide with Tolkien’s certainly wide but not universal range of interests. He loved Botanics, and we are not surprised the notebooks from the 1930’s give a complete list of flower and tree names in the two languages as they were then. On the other hand, he is not a finance enthusiast. He may have been meticulous about his finances, but he didn’t write poetry about them. In Matthew 25:27 we find terms related to that, and the Bible translater Helge Fauskanger when translating this to Neo-Quenya had to include a word not found in Tolkien: Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury[1] / Etta mauyane lyen panya telpenya as i *sarnomor, ar íre túlen ence nin came ya ninya né as napánina telpe![2] I think "sarnomor" is how Fauskanger imagines "bankers" or "money lenders" would translate, but Tolkien didn't imagine it, hence the asterisk.

Footnotes

[1] Douay-Rheims Bible [Matthew 25:27]
https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=25&l=27#x

[2] I Vinya Vére
The New Testament in Neo-Quenya
http://ardalambion.net/nqnt.htm

Tolkien leads on

to something about Christianity, and so also this time. I posed a question and got an answer involving Helge Fauskanger's view on battologein:

Q III

Did Helge Fauskanger consider Mt. 6:7 as containing the concept "monotonous repetition"?
https://www.quora.com/Did-Helge-Fauskanger-consider-Mt-6-7-as-containing-the-concept-monotonous-repetition

Hans-Georg Lundahl

28.VI.2028

Vigil of Sts Peter and Paul

7 But when you are praying, do not say the same things in monotonous repetition, as people of the [heathen] nations do, for they think that they will be being heard by using numerous words.

7 Mal íre hyámal, áva quete i imye nati mi vorongandale, ve queni i liendion carir, an sanilte i nauvalte hláraine *yuhtiénen rimbe quettali.

Q III, Resp A

https://www.quora.com/Did-Helge-Fauskanger-consider-Mt-6-7-as-containing-the-concept-monotonous-repetition/answer/Modern-Dionysian-4

Modern Dionysian

28.VI.2028

Vigil of Sts Peter and Paul

Wow you're so desperate to sound super smart you don't realize one monotonous means dull repetitive so you're asking did this person consider that the verse that says pray not in vain repetition has repetitious repetition which the verse does not repeat itself it does not contain but not in this repetition there's nothing about it that is dull or interesting there's nothing about it but it's repetitive especially repetitiveness squared but you use big words that you don't understand what they mean in regards to the first that tells you to avoid repetition especially vain which means basically self-serving look at me how great I am which is the whole point of your message I'm going to show everybody that I'm smart I have no idea what I just said and when I do I'll realize how dumb I sound why don't you actually get educated on the topic you're trying to see me educated on that would be a phenomenal reprieve for my time on this platform

Hans-Georg Lundahl

29.VI.2028

Day of Sts Peter and Paul

I’m sorry, but it’s not a question of supersmart, but of the correct interpretation of a Greek word.

I am not aggrandising myself, I’m defending the Rosary against Protestant mistranslations!

As you are possibly not Helge Fauskanger, you are possibly not a professional Bible translator. He is. It’s more than just the Neo-Quenya he’s guilty of, if so, I think Norway has or will have a new translation of the Bible.

Battologein can be translated most directly as “stutterspeak” … though some have interpreted it as “speak as the poet Batta” (not sure if he even existed).

Syriac and Coptic have “stutter” and Latin has “use many words” so presumably it means being so nervous you end up rephrasing and rephrasing yourself (but not monotonously) to impress a benefactor you feel nervous before.

Jesus isn’t telling anyone to avoid repeating short prayers (monotonously even), or to avoid rereading long ones from the Psalter, He’s telling us “you are not Shakespear, God is not your backseat (bad acoustics) audience” … that’s pretty clear from the context:

1. Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. — God isn’t needing our explanations and motivational speeches.
2. speak not much, as the heathens. — We can check how Greco-Roman heathens prayed, and it was not reciting mantras, it was holding speeches.

So NEITHER monotonous NOR verbatim repetition belongs in the verse, it’s nervosity and holding speeches we need to avoid.

EDIT: the NT by Helge Fauskanger is there in Norway since 2015:

Dagen: Et veldig nytt Nytestamente?
Sverre Bøe, professor dr. theol. ved Fjellhaug Internasjonale Høgskole | Publisert: 19.04.2015 14:43
https://www.dagen.no/okategoriserade/et-veldig-nytt-nytestamente/

Q IV

Who created Elvish, the fictional language from The Lord of the Rings? Is it a real language or was it invented for the purpose of the book?
https://www.quora.com/Who-created-Elvish-the-fictional-language-from-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-Is-it-a-real-language-or-was-it-invented-for-the-purpose-of-the-book/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

2.VII.2024

More than one question, or misstatement. More than one answer.

“Who created Elvish,”

Tolkien created both languages called “Elvish” namely “High Elven” / Quenya and “Grey Elven” / Sindarin.

“the fictional language”

In English, “fictional language” is a language presumed by the story to exist, but never actually shown, but if instead you show the language that the story presumes to exist, it is, like reconstructions of Indo-European, and like Esperanto, a conlang (the three types are Reconstructed Language, Auxiliary Language, Artistic Language). And as said, Elvish is two of them. In French however, a Con-Lang, that is an Art-Lang would (alas) tend to be called “fictional language” … it’s not as if people saying “Mae govannen” were giving each other a purely fictive “well met” …

“from The Lord of the Rings?”

Both yes and no. Quenya and Sindarin existed, for instance for purposes of Silmarillion stories (like those published after his death by his son, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and a few more) before The Lord of the Rings, but The Lord of the Rings was the first time he published texts longer than single words in them like names. So, he stuck to the version of them he had used for the purpose of the books and rewrote parts of the Silmarillion stories (as said, published later by his son, after he died) using this version.

There were other things he rewrote with The Lord of the Rings in mind, like giving a back story to Galadriel.

“Is it a real language”

They are or at least Quenya is a real language insofar that one can write texts in it and learn to read such texts. Neo-Quenya, i e texts written by others than Tolkien often needs to invent words he did not give. However, they are not things spoken by actual populations of people growing up in them. That’s where some linguists would pretend that only those are real languages, I disagree.

“or was it invented for the purpose of the book?”

They were invented for stories, or stories were invented for them, prior to that novel (in three volumes, so I wouldn’t call it “the book” rather than “the books” …). The novel was conceived when writing a sequel to The Hobbit involved admitting fairly and squarely that The Hobbit was set in the same world as the earlier stories, even if he hadn’t originally intended it to be so. This had the added benefit (“yeah” quoth his authorial heart!) to give him the opportunity to include some texts in Quenya, and some (plus some terms) in Sindarin.

Q V

Can you provide some examples of Sindarin and Quenya poetry?
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-provide-some-examples-of-Sindarin-and-Quenya-poetry/answer/Hans-Georg-Lundahl-1

Hans-Georg Lundahl

none/ apprx Masters in Latin (language) & Greek (language), Lund University

5.VII.2024

Quenya in LotR, Namárië.[1]

Sindarin in LotR, A Elbereth Gilthoniel.[2]

Footnotes

[1] Namárië - Wikipedia
[2] A Elbereth Gilthoniel - Wikipedia